He's not a pure number 9 and I think everybody understands that now or at least where we at Chelsea are concerned. I couldn't care less how many miss montages of Timo are made or articles and comments online. As long as we win the champions league and FA cup everything will be vindicated.

It's a good point about the breakdown in goal contributions because as far as I'm concerned there isn't a big difference between goals and assists and the more a player understands this and can do both to a similar level is just top tier imo. 

Let's look at Eden for example in 18/19 he finished with 16 goals and 15 assists in the league. So over 30 direct goal contributions and the key thing about this is he wasn't even our number 9. When you have a forward player with this kind of output and add a striker who can get 20+ that's a title winning or at least challenging season.

We didn't win the title that season because we didn't have a number 9 that could do that just like we don't have a number 9 who can score 20+ goals at this present moment.

My point is Timo Werner is just one part of our attack force like Eddn was and needs help to carry the load. Others (Mason, Pulisic, Kai, Hakim, Oli and T9) have also contributed but not enough in the grand scheme.

However, we are in a UCL semi final and FA cup final and the top 4 so maybe players aren't underperforming as much as some people would have you believe.

Also I just want to add some of Timo's passes bave been silky smooth in the box. You can't tell me these have being going under the radar. Very nice weight on the ball, some of the Ziyech goals come to mind and the one for Havertz recently. I didn't know he had it in his locker but long may it continue.

I think someone mentioned on here they can see Timo being a bit like the Kovacic signing. Where he looks decent in his first season but, underwhelming to expectations placed upon him on his arrival at the club. I do think he will surprise a few, the movement is there and he has a history of scoring. If he turns up for the rest of the season alongside a few others in attack we do the double.

 

I said earlier a proper pre-season under Tuchel will help, plus i'm sure he'll seek advice from peers, on how to improve his game, i really think its adjusting to the PL, a signing such as Aguerro would benefit, as he'll learn everyday from a true PL striker legend.

Just watch this again, and see how easily he makes it, i'm 100% confident he'll score like this again

 

10 hours ago, LongtimerLurker said:

He's not a pure number 9 and I think everybody understands that now or at least where we at Chelsea are concerned. I couldn't care less how many miss montages of Timo are made or articles and comments online. As long as we win the champions league and FA cup everything will be vindicated.

It's a good point about the breakdown in goal contributions because as far as I'm concerned there isn't a big difference between goals and assists and the more a player understands this and can do both to a similar level is just top tier imo. 

Let's look at Eden for example in 18/19 he finished with 16 goals and 15 assists in the league. So over 30 direct goal contributions and the key thing about this is he wasn't even our number 9. When you have a forward player with this kind of output and add a striker who can get 20+ that's a title winning or at least challenging season.

We didn't win the title that season because we didn't have a number 9 that could do that just like we don't have a number 9 who can score 20+ goals at this present moment.

 

With all said and done I think that we should see things as they are and not to try to pump up a player that has been underperforming. Timo is a striker and he was signed because he scored over 30 goals last season, nobody cared about his assists, in fact he has right now the same amount of assists as he had last season but suddenly it's used to make him look better than he actually has been.

Keep in mind that he has had a kind of a maximum trust of 2 managers now despite not finishing clear-cut chances so we actually built our attack around him and he has played the most minutes out of all of our strikers, the only attacking player that has more minutes than him is Mount so clearly with all that game time he was bound to make some contribution but it still doesn't resolve the issue that he has been the most wasteful player that we have had, I dare to say even more wasteful than Morata.

I gave him the benefit of a doubt at the start of the season and I really thought that Lampard wasn't using him correctly but he continues to miss even now under Tuchel, that is something that @coco warned me about back then, that when the new manager comes he won't have that excuse anymore and I'm not giving him any excuses now.

We clearly need a striker that can score 20 goals, the last time we had that it was with D.Costa and we did win the league and I'm hoping that Werner can turn into that player but right now you can't compare Werner to those players that really did their job at the top level, I actually posted the stats in detail and Werner isn't at the level to the end product that D.Costa had so it's pointless to even try with that route.

I think that Werner should have done much better even if you can point out that other players should contribute more because Giroud and Tammy as backups have the same amount of goals as Werner and Mount and Havertz have a decent end product as well, even if I thought that Pulisic would have a bigger end product by now he has been going through injuries and every game they foul him at least 5 times so if you ask me the criticism of Werner is totally valid at this point in time.

If he scores in the near future obviously he will be doing his job and thus proving his worth but if he keeps missing chances it might cost us as well so we should hope for the best but consider the worst possibility as well, after all if he had scored against Real Madrid from 3 yards he would have already silenced the critics for such an important goal even if it was just a tap-in, but he missed it.

59 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

With all said and done I think that we should see things as they are and not to try to pump up a player that has been underperforming. Timo is a striker and he was signed because he scored over 30 goals last season, nobody cared about his assists, in fact he has right now the same amount of assists as he had last season but suddenly it's used to make him look better than he actually has been.

Keep in mind that he has had a kind of a maximum trust of 2 managers now despite not finishing clear-cut chances so we actually built our attack around him and he has played the most minutes out of all of our strikers, the only attacking player that has more minutes than him is Mount so clearly with all that game time he was bound to make some contribution but it still doesn't resolve the issue that he has been the most wasteful player that we have had, I dare to say even more wasteful than Morata.

I gave him the benefit of a doubt at the start of the season and I really thought that Lampard wasn't using him correctly but he continues to miss even now under Tuchel, that is something that @coco warned me about back then, that when the new manager comes he won't have that excuse anymore and I'm not giving him any excuses now.

We clearly need a striker that can score 20 goals, the last time we had that it was with D.Costa and we did win the league and I'm hoping that Werner can turn into that player but right now you can't compare Werner to those players that really did their job at the top level, I actually posted the stats in detail and Werner isn't at the level to the end product that D.Costa had so it's pointless to even try with that route.

I think that Werner should have done much better even if you can point out that other players should contribute more because Giroud and Tammy as backups have the same amount of goals as Werner and Mount and Havertz have a decent end product as well, even if I thought that Pulisic would have a bigger end product by now he has been going through injuries and every game they foul him at least 5 times so if you ask me the criticism of Werner is totally valid at this point in time.

If he scores in the near future obviously he will be doing his job and thus proving his worth but if he keeps missing chances it might cost us as well so we should hope for the best but consider the worst possibility as well, after all if he had scored against Real Madrid from 3 yards he would have already silenced the critics for such an important goal even if it was just a tap-in, but he missed it.

I get that but what I'm trying to say is while Timo is a goal scorer he's not a number 9 at least in the traditional sense. The word striker actually has a large application to various players throughout the world who wouldn't necessarily fit the mould of a pure out and out finisher (English style number 9). Timo Werner is more similar to Eden Hazard in what he brings to a team not Diego Costa.

As I've said multiple times there is no defending some of the misses he has had this season. But, what I will defend him from is those that expected him to be our number 9 because that just isn't what he is. He's always been better with a reference point up top rather than playing by himself through the middle just like Hazard.

So when you actually look at him purely as a fwd player brought in to help the team score, then he actually isn't doing as bad as some would have you believe. But if people keep expecting him to be a number 9 then they are always going to be disappointed this season. Timo Werner is not a number 9 he is a 'Striker' by definition but a better description of him would be a modern day forward.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.bundesliga.com/en/bundesliga/news/timo-werner-rb-leipzig-and-germany-s-prototype-modern-striker-5470

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.bundesliga.com/en/bundesliga/news/what-is-timo-werner-s-best-position-for-rb-leipzig-julian-nagelsmann-10343

Whilst he can play as a sole forward that is not his best position to draw out the very best in him. He is a hybrid forward that was brought in to help us win games. For the most part he has done that this season.

Yes he misses chances, sitters even but at least he continues to try. If you want to see the best of Werner you need a true number 9 same for the rest of our forwards. We have a plethora of playmakers and only 2 number 9s who tactically struggle to adapt to the role of ST in our current setup. Giroud is too slow and Tammy is still raw but shows promise.

Its no surprise you see Werner getting assists when he has a focal point like Kai to play off or Ziyech and Pulisic on the counter. These are players that make clever movements around the box and utilise the space in behind.

If you consider he isn't on Penalties and also rarely gets 1v1s where he has time to pick his spot then it makes sense why his goal droughts happen. You can't buy a player not to play to his strengths and then call them a flop. Most of the chances Timo has are 1 touch finishes which surprise surprise isn't his forte. He is at his best in transition running through 1v1 at goal. Ideally centerally or just coming off the left. If you want to compare Timo to anyone it should be someone at Liverpool since he fits their style to a t although the style we are currently creating is quite similar to their front 3.

By all means criticise him for his misses but if you can't understand that he isn't the type of player to lead the line I can't help you.

1 hour ago, LongtimerLurker said:

So when you actually look at him purely as a fwd player brought in to help the team score, then he actually isn't doing as bad as some would have you believe.

I agree with all of your post, but particularly the bit that I have quoted here.

The player has contributed to more goals than the likes of Diego Costa or Drogs did in their first season. Now, nobody is suggesting that Timo has been better overall than those players, but in terms of volume of the goals he has contributed to, then he is up there with some of the best strikers we have had. This provides a fantastic basis for him to build on for next season.

The amount of people looking to discredit a player who has contributed to over 20 goals is amazing. The amount of people who are willing write off someone who is winning us points is absurd.  Some people would genuinely want him dropped for Tammy, a player who has hardly won us any points this season.

Sure, Timo has had some horrendous, inexcusable misses - and nobody is disputing or defending that. BUT despite those misses he picks himself up, continually puts himself in positions to get new chances (i.e he is no Torres who went games at time without having a chance), and he continues to make an impact with match winning contributions.

Work to do, but you absolutely hit the nail on the head when you said that he isn't doing as bad as some WUM's would have us believe.

 

Edited May 3, 20215 yr by nonotnowjim

5 hours ago, Ballack & Blu said:

Just watch this again, and see how easily he makes it, i'm 100% confident he'll score like this again

Great video - as you say, he makes finishing look effortless in that. Is this really the same bloke who managed to clear the ball backwards when trying to score from the goal line?!

It is amazing what some confidence and conviction will do to a goalscorer! Lets hope we get to celebrate some finishes like this between now and the end of the season.

Edited May 3, 20215 yr by nonotnowjim

I might well be grasping at straws here, but i wonder if no crowd and zero atmosphere is the reason why he hasn't scored more goals ? I can't think of much else why he would go from that in the video above, to missing even simple chances.

In that Video I posted, I studied him well, and he was played like Vardy and Owen, a proper Finisher, Messi is no 9, but is the ‘Finisher’ of a team.

Our defenders in the PL are no better than some Bundesliga defenders, his lack of finishing prowess atm, is a mental block, and he needs to get through that, there definitely isn’t the space in the PL as other leagues, because a lot of the teams set up not to concede, and maybe they luckily win. He’s needed this season to look at the style of the PL, and now needs to adapt accordingly

Edited May 3, 20215 yr by Ballack & Blu

1 hour ago, LongtimerLurker said:

I get that but what I'm trying to say is while Timo is a goal scorer he's not a number 9 at least in the traditional sense. The word striker actually has a large application to various players throughout the world who wouldn't necessarily fit the mould of a pure out and out finisher (English style number 9). Timo Werner is more similar to Eden Hazard in what he brings to a team not Diego Costa.

As I've said multiple times there is no defending some of the misses he has had this season. But, what I will defend him from is those that expected him to be our number 9 because that just isn't what he is. He's always been better with a reference point up top rather than playing by himself through the middle just like Hazard.

So when you actually look at him purely as a fwd player brought in to help the team score, then he actually isn't doing as bad as some would have you believe. But if people keep expecting him to be a number 9 then they are always going to be disappointed this season. Timo Werner is not a number 9 he is a 'Striker' by definition but a better description of him would be a modern day forward.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.bundesliga.com/en/bundesliga/news/timo-werner-rb-leipzig-and-germany-s-prototype-modern-striker-5470

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.bundesliga.com/en/bundesliga/news/what-is-timo-werner-s-best-position-for-rb-leipzig-julian-nagelsmann-10343

Whilst he can play as a sole forward that is not his best position to draw out the very best in him. He is a hybrid forward that was brought in to help us win games. For the most part he has done that this season.

Yes he misses chances, sitters even but at least he continues to try. If you want to see the best of Werner you need a true number 9 same for the rest of our forwards. We have a plethora of playmakers and only 2 number 9s who tactically struggle to adapt to the role of ST in our current setup. Giroud is too slow and Tammy is still raw but shows promise.

Its no surprise you see Werner getting assists when he has a focal point like Kai to play off or Ziyech and Pulisic on the counter. These are players that make clever movements around the box and utilise the space in behind.

If you consider he isn't on Penalties and also rarely gets 1v1s where he has time to pick his spot then it makes sense why his goal droughts happen. You can't buy a player not to play to his strengths and then call them a flop. Most of the chances Timo has are 1 touch finishes which surprise surprise isn't his forte. He is at his best in transition running through 1v1 at goal. Ideally centerally or just coming off the left. If you want to compare Timo to anyone it should be someone at Liverpool since he fits their style to a t although the style we are currently creating is quite similar to their front 3.

By all means criticise him for his misses but if you can't understand that he isn't the type of player to lead the line I can't help you.

I get that he's not a classical number 9, I knew that as soon as the rumors of him coming came out but at the same time there is no doubt in my mind that he was supposed to be that player to score a lot of goals for us, a quick comparison shows that he used to score a goal every 100 minutes in Bundesliga last season and now he's almost at 400 minutes in the PL per goal and it's no secret that he wasn't happy with himself for quite some time during this season.

Despite the fact that you're saying that someone else should contribute with Werner you didn't reflect on my point about how the backup strikers contributed the same amount of goals as Werner did already despite not playing nearly the same amount of minutes, I seriously doubt that the same argument could be made for Tammy or Giroud.

I remember myself and several other people here complaining about how Lampard used Timo, a few of us honestly thought that he was playing too far wide and that he spent a lot of energy just getting into a chance but when you say that Timo simply needs a true number 9 next to him, but that neither Giroud or Tammy would fit in that role it hints towards us lacking a player to accommodate Timo. I can agree that we don't have a balanced squad yet but it still doesn't excuse Timo's own responsibility, he had many games where he had terrible first touch and was losing the ball during attacks.
Just as a reminder that back then when people were discussing about Timo and Lampard, I can't recall anyone arguing that Timo was doing fine, there were basically two groups of people, those that thought that Lampard isn't using Werner properly (like myself) and those that believed that Werner himself is 100% to be blamed for his bad games, so what has changed?
I can't help to feel like now it's a different narrative only because we're winning games but from what I can notice Werner didn't really improve his finishing it was mainly down to Tuchel that managed to fix our defensive problems. Yes Werner is still working hard, still running a lot every game and trying to make something happen but should we be satisfied and say that this current version of Timo is basically what we paid for and that he simply needs let's say Haaland in order to become better?

You could argue that he simply over-performed last season and that for example I should lower the bar for him and just be happy that he's always trying to run at opposition's defenses but at the end of the day I think that I can't be satisfied with the fact that he has been involved in over 30 games in the PL and has 6 goals only, sure he's comparable to Firmino but if I were him I wouldn't want to be...

One more day lads until Timo exposes the snake.

28 minutes ago, LongtimerLurker said:

One more day lads until Timo exposes the snake.

 

I read this all wrong at first 

23 hours ago, coco said:

I might well be grasping at straws here, but i wonder if no crowd and zero atmosphere is the reason why he hasn't scored more goals ? I can't think of much else why he would go from that in the video above, to missing even simple chances.

I don't think it's helped a lot of players who moved to a new country this season. No crowds must be sh*t for players. 

But covid restrictions must be hard for a lot of these players. You're in a new country but you can barely go and see any of it. You're confined to your home, which is also new to you. You can't socialise with your team mates or friends. Chances are you're not seeing a lot of your immediate family. 

If players don't have wives or girlfriends (or boyfriends) then I can imagine it's been quite a lonely experience on top of a new country, culture etc. 

Then once or twice a week you've got to set aside all that personal stuff and go out and perform to large global audiences. 

On 03/05/2021 at 12:24, Ballack & Blu said:

Just watch this again, and see how easily he makes it, i'm 100% confident he'll score like this again

 

I'm all on board with the optimism BB, but I can't help getting a feeling of Torres-A-Vu here.

You kept showing videos and telling me it was only a matter of time before he started scoring goals again and I believed you!

I want you to give some kind of insurance backed guarantee this time round.

Timo Werner is a misunderstood player by many fans who have either not followed his career closely in the Bundesliga or who prefer to get their information from memes as opposed to watching the games themselves with a thoughtful, critical eye.

Although Werner misses chances, he creates them at a higher rate than most forwards, because he is the opposite of a stagnant No. 9. In fact, he’s not really a striker. He’s a dynamic, pacy mismatch who works hard to disrupt an opponent’s defensive structure, and presses the Hell out defenders.

Werner has 20 goal contributions this season and is Chelsea’s most impactful player in the final third, even accounting for the missed opportunities. His athleticism makes him one of our biggest X-Factors. If he can take advantage of his chances and atone for his miss in the first leg, Werner could very well be the man who sinks Real Madrid hearts at Stamford Bridge.

Cometh the hour, cometh the man. Our hopes rest on Timo today.

1 hour ago, just said:

I'm all on board with the optimism BB, but I can't help getting a feeling of Torres-A-Vu here.

You kept showing videos and telling me it was only a matter of time before he started scoring goals again and I believed you!

I want you to give some kind of insurance backed guarantee this time round.

I see the real difference is, we bought a shot Torres, a Torres that Benitez ran into the ground, i played as a Striker, at a far far lower standard than Timo, but i know all the pressure in the Team is on the Striker, and i'm sure he's just having a Mental block in front of goal, you never forget how to score, but the Gods can turn their back for a while...

On 03/05/2021 at 06:36, Gol15 said:

With all said and done I think that we should see things as they are and not to try to pump up a player that has been underperforming. Timo is a striker and he was signed because he scored over 30 goals last season, nobody cared about his assists, in fact he has right now the same amount of assists as he had last season but suddenly it's used to make him look better than he actually has been.

Keep in mind that he has had a kind of a maximum trust of 2 managers now despite not finishing clear-cut chances so we actually built our attack around him and he has played the most minutes out of all of our strikers, the only attacking player that has more minutes than him is Mount so clearly with all that game time he was bound to make some contribution but it still doesn't resolve the issue that he has been the most wasteful player that we have had, I dare to say even more wasteful than Morata.

I gave him the benefit of a doubt at the start of the season and I really thought that Lampard wasn't using him correctly but he continues to miss even now under Tuchel, that is something that @coco warned me about back then, that when the new manager comes he won't have that excuse anymore and I'm not giving him any excuses now.

We clearly need a striker that can score 20 goals, the last time we had that it was with D.Costa and we did win the league and I'm hoping that Werner can turn into that player but right now you can't compare Werner to those players that really did their job at the top level, I actually posted the stats in detail and Werner isn't at the level to the end product that D.Costa had so it's pointless to even try with that route.

I think that Werner should have done much better even if you can point out that other players should contribute more because Giroud and Tammy as backups have the same amount of goals as Werner and Mount and Havertz have a decent end product as well, even if I thought that Pulisic would have a bigger end product by now he has been going through injuries and every game they foul him at least 5 times so if you ask me the criticism of Werner is totally valid at this point in time.

If he scores in the near future obviously he will be doing his job and thus proving his worth but if he keeps missing chances it might cost us as well so we should hope for the best but consider the worst possibility as well, after all if he had scored against Real Madrid from 3 yards he would have already silenced the critics for such an important goal even if it was just a tap-in, but he missed it.

Amen

On 03/05/2021 at 07:24, Ballack & Blu said:

Just watch this again, and see how easily he makes it, i'm 100% confident he'll score like this again

 

We should sign this guy!  Honestly, the quality is there, just shows you how much confidence and system has impacted him.  Perhaps I was too hasty to think we should move on.  If he finishes the season strong all will be forgiven.

One thing stood out in the video - "you can never keep him out of the headlines for long".  True.

Fantastic game today. Ran Real Madrid ragged and well deserved goal.

Building quite the partnership with Kai Havertz.

His pace in behind is so important for us. Even when he's not scoring he's been able to pull defences about and make them think about dropping deep. So happy for him getting that goal today.

Best game for us this season.

Goal, good moves with the ball, creative and always put defenders in danger.

 

8 goals left to reach 20 for the season. If ever there was a time for Timo to hit a purple patch, it's now.

I feared the worst after he failed to hold his line for the offside goal but he bounced back really well. Caused the Madrid back line all sorts of problems. Great strikers instincts to follow in the rebound off the bar.

11 minutes ago, Deino said:

8 goals left to reach 20 for the season. If ever there was a time for Timo to hit a purple patch, it's now.

He might as well start with 4 goals on Saturday in that case 🙂