14 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

...his contributions are simply not as good as D. Costa's contributions were

Nobody is saying that werners contributions have been as good as costas. 

7 minutes ago, LongtimerLurker said:

Tbf though I think if Timo had Cesc and Eden to supply him with chances he would score a lot more goals even with his lack of confidence.

As soon as you need that IF statement which changes reality a bit everything is suddenly a possibility I guess...

Credit where it is due, he played really well today and led the line great. Should have had 2 assists.

Werner’s pace scares the sh*t out of defences. Resulting in either they drop deep and concede possession or run the risk of being exposed by the high line they would prefer to play themselves. He arrived at us after scoring a sh*t load of goals in Germany, he. is though the type of forward who also misses a fair few,as his previous record shows. No coincidence that Bayern with an aging  centre forward weren’t interested, he just isn’t a direct replacement. What we have got though is a forward who likes to run the channels defenders hate defending, will get into good positions and still score and create a few for others...he will miss his fair share too, his Leipzig record shows this too. I expect his second season to be more fruitful but yes we still need a forward to lead the line. Comparisons have already to made to other Chelsea Centre Forward flops which is fair, we,ve all backed others who we thought would come good, I’ll go out on a limb I think he will prove a good purchase given time, though I’m not convinced he will ever be as prolific as his time in  the Bundesliga. Saying all that he does frustrate me, with poor finishing and shallow runs off the ball.

9 hours ago, Butterhampton FC said:

The problem with this is that we spent 50 million pounds on a goal scorer not another frontman or wide player who only contributes a goal here and there. I don't want our number 1 striker to be assisting 20 goals a season if he isn't scoring bucket loads as well. We could have drafted in Shane Long or Ashley Barnes for free if you want a striker who presses and annoys defenders and also can't score goals.

Isn’t that what peak Firmino was for Liverpool? You can also argue that our widemen have all been piss poor.

8 minutes ago, ducavis said:

Isn’t that what peak Firmino was for Liverpool? You can also argue that our widemen have all been piss poor.

If Ashley Barnes and Shane long can drop and play as a 10 or even as midfielder then sure 

He also reached the quarter final of the CL with two different clubs in a row, i think there is something about him like his runs, his work rate or his different play style.

 

Edited May 2, 20215 yr by maik2021

10 hours ago, nonotnowjim said:

No - I am not saying that Werner is having a "better" first season than Costa. I would have thought that when I said "I do not think that Werner has been good enough, and clearly he needs to start scoring more and stop missing easy chances.", it would have been very clear that he is not performing "better" than Costa did.

I have also not said that Timo has "has had better contribution than him in 2/3 seasons" as you suggest. Read again, go on, one more time....and you will see that I said, "his output and impact is not a bad foundation to build on, and he is not having as bad a season as others make out. He is a threat, and his first season numbers are up there with players who are seen to be very successful Chelsea strikers".

So. To make this very very very clear, in simple terms that everyone from my 6 year old son, to my 90 yr old grandma can understand.

What I AM NOT saying

1) I am not saying that Timo Werner is playing better than Diego Costa did in his first season

2) I am not saying that Timo Werner is playing better than Diego Costa did in his 2nd or 3rd Season.

3) I am not saying that Timo Werner is playing better than Didier Drogba did in any of his seasons with us.

4) I am not saying that Timo Werner is playing better than Eden Hazard.

5) I am not saying that Timo Werner is the answer to our attacking prayers.

6) I am not saying that Timo Werner has been good enough.

What I AM saying

7) I am saying that Timo Werners goals and assists output is not as bad as people make out.

8 )I am saying that Timo Werners goals and assists output in this, his debut season in the UK, is not bad when compared to debut seasons from other successful Chelsea strikers, including Costa and Drogba.

9 ) I am saying that Timo Werner is the first Chelsea player to reach double figures of both goals and assists in a single season since Eden Hazard in 2012/13

10) I am saying that Timo Werners goal and assist output in his first season to date, is a fantastic foundation to build on in his 2nd season

11) I am saying that Timo Werner contributes a lot more than some posters on here give him credit for.

12) Despite point 10, I am saying that Timo Werner has not been good enough, that he needs to do better, needs to score more and needs to stop missing easy chances.

13) I am saying that despite his flaws, Timo Werner is winning us significantly more points and contributing more in big moments than Tammy Abraham.

14) I am saying that I do not agree with those who say that Abraham should play over Werner

 

I trust that this makes it super easy to understand what I am, and what I am not saying. I hope this has been helpful and wont need further clarification.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Leave it, surely not worth the effort. It's pretty clear what you are saying.

Maybe I can give Gol a hypothetical analogy he will understand.

Gol: Mendy is pretty bad

Others: Surely he can't be so bad, he's kept more clean sheets in his first season than even Petr Cech did in his first season (I don't know if this is even true). Of course our tactics have helped but he must be doing some things right.

Gol: OMG, how can you say Mendy was better than Cech, HE IS OUR BEST EVER KEEPER......

Others: No one is saying that.

Gol: OMG, how can you say Mendy was better than Cech, HE IS OUR BEST EVER KEEPER......

@Gol15 hope that helped 🙂 no offense but no one is saying Werner has been better than Costa.

 

13 minutes ago, ashwin said:

Leave it, surely not worth the effort. It's pretty clear what you are saying.

Maybe I can give Gol a hypothetical analogy he will understand.

Gol: Mendy is pretty bad

Others: Surely he can't be so bad, he's kept more clean sheets in his first season than even Petr Cech did in his first season (I don't know if this is even true). Of course our tactics have helped but he must be doing some things right.

Gol: OMG, how can you say Mendy was better than Cech, HE IS OUR BEST EVER KEEPER......

Others: No one is saying that.

Gol: OMG, how can you say Mendy was better than Cech, HE IS OUR BEST EVER KEEPER......

@Gol15 hope that helped 🙂 no offense but no one is saying Werner has been better than Costa.

 

I think it's a self-defeating argument to say that Werner is up there with D.Costa but at the same time isn't good enough this season, clearly the two can't be right at the same time and the players are simply not comparable and looking closer at the stats clearly shows it. Nobody is saying that Mendy is pretty bad, many are saying that Werner has been underwhelming so your analogy is wrong too...

Edited May 2, 20215 yr by Gol15

49 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

I think it's a self-defeating argument to say that Werner is up there with D.Costa but at the same time isn't good enough this season, clearly the two can't be right at the same time and the players are simply not comparable and looking closer at the stats clearly shows it. Nobody is saying that Mendy is pretty bad, many are saying that Werner has been underwhelming so your analogy is wrong too...

Man - are you for real? Can you read? Literally nobody is saying that werner is up there with costa in terms of his performances. STOP MAKING sh*t UP.

 

1 hour ago, Gol15 said:

I think it's a self-defeating argument to say that Werner is up there with D.Costa but at the same time isn't good enough this season, clearly the two can't be right at the same time and the players are simply not comparable and looking closer at the stats clearly shows it. Nobody is saying that Mendy is pretty bad, many are saying that Werner has been underwhelming so your analogy is wrong too...

I suppose you know what hypothetical means?

A 'hypothetical' analogy

13 hours ago, nonotnowjim said:

Werner already has 11 goals and 13 assists this season. The first player to contribute to over 20 goals in a debut season since Diego Costa (I think - at least that was the stat mentioned on the commentary today - not checked it though!)

So...Werner, to date has contributed to 24 goals.

For comparison, Diego Costa in his first season contributed to 23 goals (20 goals / assists). FYI, Costa then contributed to 18 in his second season (12 goals / 6 assists), and 27 in season 3 (20 goals/7 assists).

Drogba in his first season contributed to 10 goals and 5 assists. 12 Goals and 11 assists in season 2, 20 goals and 4 assists in season 3, 8 goals and 5 assists in season 4.

To make very clear, I do not think that Werner has been good enough, and clearly he needs to start scoring more and stop missing easy chances....

....BUT, his output and impact is not a bad foundation to build on, and he is not having as bad a season as others make out. He is a threat, and his first season numbers are up there with players who are seen to be very successful Chelsea strikers.

 

12 hours ago, Gol15 said:

So with that comparison you're trying to say that D.Costa wasn't as good for us as Werner is currently or what are you trying to suggest?

Werner's goals:

3 CL goals in 10 games, over 680 minutes - against Rennes and Krasnodar.

1 goal in the FA cup, over 235 minutes - against Morecabre.

1 goal in the Carabao Cup - against Spurs.

6 goals in the PL league, 2335 minutes - against Southampton x2, Burney, Sheffield Utd, Newcastle and West Ham.

Werner's assists:

2 in CL - against Krasnodar and Atletico Madrid.

1 in FA cup - against Man City.

10 in the PL - against Brigton, Southampton, Newcastle, Leeds, Spurs, Sheffield Utd x2, West Brom, Fulham.

Overall Werner has played around 3345 minutes in total this season so far, most of his contributions came from playing against the lower end teams and he has scored 1 goal in more than 2 months. 

D.Costa back in 2014/15 scored 20 goals in the PL in 26 appearances, overall he had 20 goals and 5 assists in around 410 less minutes played than Werner has played right now, while also having at least a month lost due to injury, I don't think it's even fair to compare the two.

 

12 hours ago, Gol15 said:

So you're not saying that Werner is having a better first season than D.Costa then but at the same time you're saying that he has had better contribution than him in 2/3 seasons, this is why I asked what are you trying to suggest by comparing the two of them. It was a question so everything I said was true and I didn't make anything up.

 

11 hours ago, nonotnowjim said:

The point of the comparison is to demonstrate exactly what I said. That his goal/assist output is not bad when compared to debut seasons from other successful Chelsea strikers, including Costa and Drogba, and it provides a great foundation for Timo to build on next season.

 

11 hours ago, nonotnowjim said:

Nobody is saying that werners contributions have been as good as costas. 

 

31 minutes ago, nonotnowjim said:

Man - are you for real? Can you read? Literally nobody is saying that werner is up there with costa in terms of his performances. STOP MAKING sh*t UP.

 

Clearly I didn't make anything up at all, maybe you should stop repeating a lie then because you have been saying all along that Werner is up there with D.Costa even if he isn't doing good enough which contradicts itself. I don't agree with that at all and I have put up Werner's stats in details that shows that his end product isn't comparable to D.Costa at all.

3 minutes ago, ashwin said:

I suppose you know what hypothetical means?

A 'hypothetical' analogy

Yes I do but you still failed to do it right because having the same amount of clean sheets that is comparable to Cech isn't the same as saying that having 6 PL goals is the same as having 20 for a striker because you're adding assists to make a striker look comparable to D.Costa and I simply don't agree with that at all and I have posted Werner's stats from this season and he's clearly not as good as D.Costa was so for me it's not even comparable. Do you comprehend my view now?

11 hours ago, LongtimerLurker said:

Tbf though I think if Timo had Cesc and Eden to supply him with chances he would score a lot more goals even with his lack of confidence.

I think you may be underestimating the aggregate creativity of our current team. Or rather, I think what you say may have been truer before but things are slowly changing. The variety of our approach play is really improving and we are getting to a point where chances / killer balls are coming from pretty much anywhere on the pitch. It’s not just our attackers (Havertz, Ziyech, Pulisic, Werner) with decent final balls in the box or wing backs (James, Chilwell) putting in higher quality crosses, but also now our defenders are contributing with long balls and through balls: Silva first and foremost but also Azpi, Rudiger (this is new) and it’s just a matter of time imo before Christensen delivers a killer ball. Add this to Jorginho and the perennially underrated (in terms of creativity / ability to thread a killer ball) Kovacic and we’re talking pretty much every player in the pitch.
 

So while I’ve been defending Werner and expect more goals next year, it’s up to him, not the rest of the team (though that should get better too), via better composure/ decision-making / confidence leading to an improved conversion rate. 

 

1 hour ago, Gol15 said:

 

 

 

 

 

Clearly I didn't make anything up at all, maybe you should stop repeating a lie then because you have been saying all along that Werner is up there with D.Costa even if he isn't doing good enough which contradicts itself. I don't agree with that at all and I have put up Werner's stats in details that shows that his end product isn't comparable to D.Costa at all.

You are deluded. I have not, at any time said that timo has been as good as costa. I literally said the exact opposite. I will be ignoring any further comment you make on thit matter, because clearly you are unable to interact rationally or interpret nuance. 
 

25 minutes ago, nonotnowjim said:

You are deluded. I have not, at any time said that timo has been as good as costa. I literally said the exact opposite. I will be ignoring any further comment you make on thit matter, because clearly you are unable to interact rationally or interpret nuance. 
 

These are your own words from multiple posts that clearly show that you have first compared Werner to D.Costa and then stated that his output is very much comparable  which in fact simply isn't at all a viable way to look at Werner's season at all when seeing his stats in detail, those stats I have provided already. You have in fact contradicted yourself because Werner being comparable to D.Costa's first season and not being good enough (something that you stated as well) can't be true at the same time - either Werner's current season is good and thus comprable to D.Costa's first season or not and I have proved that it simply isn't the case because D.Costa's first season was much more impressive.

Here is what you said:

13 hours ago, nonotnowjim said:

The point of the comparison is to demonstrate exactly what I said. That his goal/assist output is not bad when compared to debut seasons from other successful Chelsea strikers, including Costa 

 

13 hours ago, nonotnowjim said:

 

What I AM saying

8 )I am saying that Timo Werners goals and assists output in this, his debut season in the UK, is not bad when compared to debut seasons from other successful Chelsea strikers, including Costa

 

 

15 hours ago, nonotnowjim said:

So...Werner, to date has contributed to 24 goals.

For comparison, Diego Costa in his first season contributed to 23 goals (20 goals / assists). FYI, Costa then contributed to 18 in his second season (12 goals / 6 assists), and 27 in season 3 (20 goals/7 assists).

He is a threat, and his first season numbers are up there with players who are seen to be very successful Chelsea strikers.

You have clearly compared the two and said that they are comparable and that Werner's numbers are up there with D.Costa's numbers, these are your own words and I simply don't agree with it at all.

So you see, I have read your posts and commented on them, maybe you should do too in the future before calling someone names, that's a clear sign that you have no argument anyway... 

Edited May 2, 20215 yr by Gol15

2 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

These are your own words from multiple posts that clearly show that you have first compared Werner to D.Costa and then stated that his output is very much comparable  which in fact simply isn't at all a viable way to look at Werner's season at all when seeing his stats in detail, those stats I have provided already. You have in fact contradicted yourself because Werner being comparable to D.Costa's first season and not being good enough (something that you stated as well) can't be true at the same time - either Werner's current season is good and thus comprable to D.Costa's first season or not and I have proved that it simply isn't the case because D.Costa's first season was much more impressive.

Here is what you said:

 

 

You have clearly compared the two and said that they are comparable and that Werner's numbers are up there with D.Costa's numbers, these are your own words and I simply don't agree with it at all.

So you see, I have read your posts and commented on them, maybe you should do too in the future before calling someone names, that's a clear sign that you have no argument anyway... 

As I said, I will not engage with you on the matter any further, as you are unable to read or understand. I literally said, on my long list of what I think and do not think, that Werner has not been as good as costa. If you cannot understand my clear sentence , then that is your problems. I have said all that needs to be said. You can continue making stuff up and arguing with yourself.

You can go back to salivating over your boy Jorginho.

7 minutes ago, nonotnowjim said:

As I said, I will not engage with you on the matter any further, as you are unable to read or understand. I literally said, on my long list of what I think and do not think, that Werner has not been as good as costa. If you cannot understand my clear sentence , then that is your problems. I have said all that needs to be said. You can continue making stuff up and arguing with yourself.

You can go back to salivating over your boy Jorginho.

I have provided more than enough evidence from what you have said, I clearly quoted your posts and proved my point so you ignoring it doesn't make you right it only makes you sound bitter. I posted exactly what you said, which was the initial reason to why I asked you why are you even comparing Werner to D.Costa in the first place, and if you really think that Werner hasn't been as good as Costa I have nothing to add, the comparison is pointless to being with.

I have also proven that I did not make anything up, so you're just insisting on lying at this point but everyone can see your posts, stop being such a toxic poster.

Edited May 2, 20215 yr by Gol15

40 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

I have provided more than enough evidence from what you have said, I clearly quoted your posts and proved my point so you ignoring it doesn't make you right it only makes you sound bitter. I posted exactly what you said, which was the initial reason to why I asked you why are you even comparing Werner to D.Costa in the first place, and if you really think that Werner hasn't been as good as Costa I have nothing to add, the comparison is pointless to being with.

I have also proven that I did not make anything up, so you're just insisting on lying at this point but everyone can see your posts, stop being such a toxic poster.

Learn to read. Learn to understand nuance. Learn to understand clear sentences. 

I said clearly, multiple times, that I am not saying that Werner has been as good as costa. Or drogba. Or hazard. Or your big boi Jorginho. If you choose to ignore that clear sentence, and instead choose to continue peddling your made up, fantastical nonsense, then you are a bigger WUM than most on here give you credit for.
 

Have fun continuing to call anyone who doesn’t agree with you toxic. 
 

I am off to watch Liar Liar, staring Jim Carey, although you would have also excelled in the leading role.

...and now ignored. Good luck arguing with yourself.

Edited May 2, 20215 yr by nonotnowjim

28 minutes ago, nonotnowjim said:

Learn to read. Learn to understand nuance. Learn to understand clear sentences. 

I said clearly, multiple times, that I am not saying that Werner has been as good as costa. Or drogba. Or hazard. Or your big boi Jorginho. If you choose to ignore that clear sentence, and instead choose to continue peddling your made up, fantastical nonsense, then you are a bigger WUM than most on here give you credit for.
 

Have fun continuing to call anyone who doesn’t agree with you toxic. 
 

I am off to watch Liar Liar, staring Jim Carey, although you would have also excelled in the leading role.

...and now ignored. Good luck arguing with yourself.

Except you clearly said that he's up there with D. Costa in terms of end product which simply isn't true. Thus your whole comparison fails at all levels and it's totally irrelevant as soon as we see the stats a bit closer. Like I said, you can't have it both ways, you can't claim that Werner is up there with D. Costa but on the other hand say that he isn't good enough this season, those two claims can't be true at the same time which is what I have been saying all along, so you have no argument at all.

You might get away with calling people names as soon as they point out your logical fallacies but that's the only thing you get away with.

46 appearances. 11 goals and 13 assists in all competitions. 

We thought we were getting a 20 goal a season striker, perhaps not. But his overall contribution to the team has been very good. 

Directly contributing to 24 goals isn't a bad season for most players. 

Hopefully with a season under his belt and covid restrictions easing he'll feel more settled at Chelsea next season and will continue to improve and contribute to the team. 

15 minutes ago, ForeverCarefree said:

46 appearances. 11 goals and 13 assists in all competitions. 

We thought we were getting a 20 goal a season striker, perhaps not. But his overall contribution to the team has been very good. 

Directly contributing to 24 goals isn't a bad season for most players. 

Hopefully with a season under his belt and covid restrictions easing he'll feel more settled at Chelsea next season and will continue to improve and contribute to the team. 

I think it would be very interesting what the consensus would be had his 24 goal contributions so far been just slightly different. Say, 18 goals and 6 assists.

44 minutes ago, mwblue10 said:

I think it would be very interesting what the consensus would be had his 24 goal contributions so far been just slightly different. Say, 18 goals and 6 assists.

Really good point. I would guess that most people would say that he had a terrific first season had the breakdown been 18 goals and 6 assists. As it is, 11 goals and 13 assists does not have the same "shine", but it is still not a bad return for his first season, and provides a fantastic base for Timo to build on moving forward.

Honestly, I do not really care who puts the ball in the back of the net, as long as we are creating chances, scoring and winning,  and find it slightly pathetic that some with an agenda try to discredit our own players assists because they are of the mindset that "he should be scoring not assisting".

Timo needs to cut out the easy misses, but the fact that he is contributing on such a regular basis is cause to be optimistic.

KTBFFH

If Werner's on 11 goals, what happens if he does manage 20 goals in this season?

He has 4 league games, 1 cup semi (+1 potential final) and 1 final game left.

If he somehow gets 20 goals or thereabouts, would you call it a good season?

1 hour ago, Deino said:

If Werner's on 11 goals, what happens if he does manage 20 goals in this season?

He has 4 league games, 1 cup semi (+1 potential final) and 1 final game left.

If he somehow gets 20 goals or thereabouts, would you call it a good season?

Probably would call it a small miracle.