I had a different thought towards Werner this morning. I wondered if maybe for TT he is like Giroud is to France.

Giroud was panned left, right and center for not scoring enough goals, a lot was said how could he picked and Benzema left out.

During Frances successful world cup campaign questions still raged, a CF not scoring how do France expect to win the WC?

Then they won it, and their manager a genius for using Giroud not for goals but to make the team play his way and been productive as a team.

Now I wonder, very different players and all, but does TT see Werner as his Giroud? Cause is really simple, if Werner starts and we go on to win the CL, TT becomes the genius and Werner a CL winner. Just like how Torres is remembered for that goal in Barca, winning that corner.

If Werner contributes to us winning all is forgotten and forgiven, just like Giroud, just like Torres.

Key is can TT deliver that trophy, can he even see us past Real?

4 hours ago, Sindre said:

It's not just about goals though.

Werner's got a huge fault which is his finishing but other than that he's a good assister, he makes clever runs opening up spaces for others and his workrate is immense. And i'd also argue he's proved to be a better target-man then Tammy despite his size.

 

You are right, It is not about goals. If werner game is like Willian, I will never complain about his goal. But his game is all about goal, he contribute very little outside goal and assist. So you need to produce big time otherwise it is hard to justify your position in the team. 

Saying that Werner is better target man than Tammy make 0 sense. Werner isn't stupid, he doesn't even try to play as target man. 

I'm still a fan. His pace puts a fear into our opponents, especially those that play a high line. He'll come good.

4 hours ago, Bob stark said:

Actually i do. My point was Mount has been one of our best and most consistent player under Tuchel, he simply can't play Havertz over Mount otherwise he will lose the dressing room. Imagine if Mount had two of Ziyech anonymous performances, I am pretty sure Havertz will start over him. 

So Mount is getting picked on merit? You are making my point for me. All I’ve been saying is I don’t see evidence to suggest our young players are being treated unfairly 

16 minutes ago, axman2526 said:

I had a different thought towards Werner this morning. I wondered if maybe for TT he is like Giroud is to France.

Giroud was panned left, right and center for not scoring enough goals, a lot was said how could he picked and Benzema left out.

During Frances successful world cup campaign questions still raged, a CF not scoring how do France expect to win the WC?

Then they won it, and their manager a genius for using Giroud not for goals but to make the team play his way and been productive as a team.

Now I wonder, very different players and all, but does TT see Werner as his Giroud? Cause is really simple, if Werner starts and we go on to win the CL, TT becomes the genius and Werner a CL winner. Just like how Torres is remembered for that goal in Barca, winning that corner.

If Werner contributes to us winning all is forgotten and forgiven, just like Giroud, just like Torres.

Key is can TT deliver that trophy, can he even see us past Real?

It is a very2 different role. Giroud play supporting role for France. His job is to hold the ball up top to get the best out of Griezman and Mbappe. Similar to how benzema play when Cr7 was there. Most of the chances didn't not fall on benzema, all went to Ronaldo. 

Werner on the other hand isn't playing as such role. He is the one who get to the position to score. 

 

5 minutes ago, Bob stark said:

It is a very2 different role. Giroud play supporting role for France. His job is to hold the ball up top to get the best out of Griezman and Mbappe. Similar to how benzema play when Cr7 was there. Most of the chances didn't not fall on benzema, all went to Ronaldo. 

Werner on the other hand isn't playing as such role. He is the one who get to the position to score. 

 

Aye they play the role very differently. Others have pointed out Werner's movement and pace create space for others. 

While I am not sold on this idea compared to what Giroud offers at the end of the day his success or failure will be decided on what we achieve this season.

6 minutes ago, Dean said:

So Mount is getting picked on merit? You are making my point for me. All I’ve been saying is I don’t see evidence to suggest our young players are being treated unfairly 

Everyone watched how Ziyech played two absolutely horrendous game. Then he started again. We watched Werner struggling big time for weeks, he keep being selected. 

We watched cho played a horrendous half. He is gone for 5 games. We watched tammy played two horrendous half, he is a goner. 

 

16 minutes ago, Bob stark said:

You are right, It is not about goals. If werner game is like Willian, I will never complain about his goal. But his game is all about goal, he contribute very little outside goal and assist. So you need to produce big time otherwise it is hard to justify your position in the team. 

Saying that Werner is better target man than Tammy make 0 sense. Werner isn't stupid, he doesn't even try to play as target man. 

 

Actually, Werner contributes plenty. He's got a great stamina, never stops running, presses all game long, he tracks back and helps out defensively and I'm sure that's a big factor in Tuchel's determination to play him consistently despite all the misses. If I'm not mistaken, he leads the team in assists. His biggest and obvious flaw is missing goal scoring chances.

That's not to say I'm not incredibly frustrated with his inability to put away sitters, after all that's his main job. But to suggest he contributes very little outside of goals and assists is simply not true.

2 hours ago, Remy10 said:

It's a funny one because I think it's something of a catch 22. We want to, broadly, keep playing the same way and getting the same chances, but we also want someone to finish them off. However, I don't necessarily think that it's as simple as swapping Timo out for Oli, Tammy, Kai or anyone else in our squad, because it'll completely change how we play and how other teams setup against us. Timo does work hard, he does provide assists and his movement and pace occupies defenders and causes them problems. Real were very aware of him, and it afforded space in the midfield for the likes of Kante and Mount to run into at times. Yes, he doesn't appear to be much of a goal threat and misses golden chances, but I don't think any team would be willing to take the risk of leaving him alone to do what he wants and play into his strengths of running beyond them at will. Especially if we're going to be playing the game of 'keep it solid and hit them on the break'. 

Ultimately though he's failing at his primary job of being a striker - at this level you need to be taking your chances more often than not, especially when you may only get 1 or 2 in these big games. Benzema did basically nothing all game, but when he did, he hit the post and scored a great goal to level it up. I'm fairly sure we'll see someone else given a shot up front against Fulham so it'll be interesting to see who, and how they do, although I think it's also pretty clear at this stage of the season that the club must be lining up another striker for the summer.

Wonderful post, very well put.

Just now, abramovich said:

Actually, Werner contributes plenty. He's got a great stamina, never stops running, presses all game long, he tracks back and helps out defensively and I'm sure that's a big factor in Tuchel's determination to play him consistently despite all the misses. If I'm not mistaken, he leads the team in assists. His biggest and obvious flaw is missing goal scoring chances.

That's not to say I'm not incredibly frustrated with his inability to put away sitters, after all that's his main job. But to suggest he contributes very little outside of goals and assists is simply not true.

Wow we are really in torres territory here. Pressing and running are all good. But that is not nailed down starter player, that is bench or rotational player attributes. 

 

 

 

11 minutes ago, Bob stark said:

Wow we are really in torres territory here. Pressing and running are all good. But that is not nailed down starter player, that is bench or rotational player attributes. 

 

 

 

Torres' legs were  already gone by the time he came to Chelsea. Pace was his main attribute but injuries destroyed him as a top class striker, so he was already finished when we stupidly bought him from Pool.

Werner's pace is still there. His struggles probably have to do with psychological issues and/or adapting to a new league/team/country. 

As for pressing and running, that depends on a manager and what system he employs. Giroud is a better finisher than Werner at this point in time, but Tuchel doesn't use him. Which means that for all Werner's flaws what he brings to the table is more important than what he's lacking, at least in the eyes of the manager.

1 hour ago, Bob stark said:

Everyone watched how Ziyech played two absolutely horrendous game. Then he started again. We watched Werner struggling big time for weeks, he keep being selected. 

We watched cho played a horrendous half. He is gone for 5 games. We watched tammy played two horrendous half, he is a goner. 

 

Ok. I don’t think your “everyone” includes me and I disagree with pretty much every point... which is fine. not much use pursuing this any further 

1 hour ago, axman2526 said:

Aye they play the role very differently. Others have pointed out Werner's movement and pace create space for others. 

While I am not sold on this idea compared to what Giroud offers at the end of the day his success or failure will be decided on what we achieve this season.

They don't play the role differently. It is a completely different role. In rm case, giroud is playing benzema role for France and werner is playing cr7 for us. Werner is our goal getter. 

Even if we succeed this season, having a goal getter who does not score make 0 sense. 

5 hours ago, Dean said:

Fair points. I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I just don’t buy it. With Tammy, absence is making many of our hearts grow fonder. We were hardly raving about him when he was getting selected. As for Billy, I mean he’s REALLY young but I would have thought it’s the inexperience rather than the being young itself that makes TT reluctant to pick him. Bottom line - I just don’t think TT has it in for our young players. 

Agree on Tammy though think with the current schedule with a match every 3 days including semis and finals, Tammy might be able to provide some cover to reduce the mileage on the preferred regular starters. Giroud is the better finisher though for me is not mobile enough.

I think with Billy, also athleticism is a big factor and being street wise like Jorginho who is also not that quick.

2 minutes ago, Strider6003 said:

Agree on Tammy though think with the current schedule with a match every 3 days including semis and finals, Tammy might be able to provide some cover to reduce the mileage on the preferred regular starters. Giroud is the better finisher though for me is not mobile enough.

I think with Billy, also athleticism is a big factor and being street wise like Jorginho who is also not that quick.

Tammy scored 15 goals last season in PL

3 minutes ago, Strider6003 said:

Agree on Tammy though think with the current schedule with a match every 3 days including semis and finals, Tammy might be able to provide some cover to reduce the mileage on the preferred regular starters. Giroud is the better finisher though for me is not mobile enough.

I think with Billy, also athleticism is a big factor and being street wise like Jorginho who is also not that quick.

Yeah that’s absolutely fair Strider.I would have nothing against Tammy playing a part in the run-in, and would love him to do well. 

The guy has scored 95 goals in 159 matches in his four seasons with Leipzig, last season he's had 34 goals in 45 matches. I mean he CAN score, there is no doubt about it, I agree he does not look the most technically gifted player, but he's not had average numbers either, technically he was the exact same players at Leipzig, too, same touch, same dribbling, same passes, same speed, the only difference is he'd bang them goals for fun.

Which for me indicates some sort of mental block, think he is the introvert type of guy who at Leipzig was in the perfect environment to flourish. Now he is at a huge club, media is all over him, pressure is big, especially for a striker as he's been brought to score goals, think he might just be a little bit overwhelmed about this.

Salah's departure has thaught me a lesson not to rule players off that soon. I was sure he was just a skinny speed merchant that was maybe going to return to PL to play for Palace after years of failing for mid table Italian and French clubs. And look at him now after all these years. All he needed was a confidence boost, hope it's the case for Werner, too.

At Chelsea the coaches do just that and advise upon transfers, Tickle confirmed that when he got here. The ex manager & Cech may have had input on Zyech, Havertz & Werner but the board & RA came up with the signings and gave final approval and financed them. Im not saying this is a bad thing look at the Gooners, fans want Kronkies out now and have Spotify cash at the ready because of the exact opposite-  a perceived lack of footballing  interest by the owner who seems only up for draining money out of the club constantly.

So if lets just say The Board signed Werner based upon whatever scouting methodology they used not the Head Coach. Then if that same head coach rocks up at Chelsea saying I know the crack with the owner re success (top 4 finish & cup finals) and Im here to coach the players the owner provides me in the squad (para phrasing Tickle) then why is it such a surprise the coach will try to find a way to play the Board's expensive signings over Academy boys who only cost their development ?  Its not to me, and explains why Werner and to a lesser degree Zyech & Havertz will always get the nod over some of the Academy boys who are not playing at the extremely high level of Mason week in week out. Tammy, James & Gilmour (think CHO different because he can play wing back but not as good as Moses did) are those in question, with RLC Gallagher Ampadu to return and I reckon Tomori will be flogged on now (we have 4 good CBs for 3 spots and 24 mill quid is a good price).

I dont think RA is whats apping a team line up to Tickle on match days but its all implied somehow. I'd rather have a dedicated hands on owner into the sport and winning trophies the Kronky or Glazer winkers so its ok by me if only Mason & James make the grade right now. I would be upset to see the others moved on but thats life.

 

It is a conundrum but I trust TT to deal with it.

TT is clearly frustrated with the chances Werner is missing (as we all are), but there is little doubt we play better as a team when he is in the line up. Giroud and Tammy seem to score more goals, but I wouldn't have wanted either starting  last night or in next week's second leg. Giroud has the habit of scoring the odd important goal, but doesn't have the legs or the energy now for a 90 minute CL semi final. And as for Tammy, we have all seen how he cannot hold the ball up well and it bounce off him and he spends too much time on the deck. So I can see why TT sticks with Werner or sometimes puts in Havertz and I expect that's what he'll do next Wednesday and have Giroud and Tammy on the bench if we find ourselves needing a goal in the second half.

That said,  I would have Werner on the training ground practicing his finishing from dawn to dusk every f**king day up until next Wednesday.................!! 

2 minutes ago, Nibs said:

It is a conundrum but I trust TT to deal with it.

TT is clearly frustrated with the chances Werner is missing (as we all are), but there is little doubt we play better as a team when he is in the line up. Giroud and Tammy seem to score more goals, but I wouldn't have wanted either starting  last night or in next week's second leg. Giroud has the habit of scoring the odd important goal, but doesn't have the legs or the energy now for a 90 minute CL semi final. And as for Tammy, we have all seen how he cannot hold the ball up well and it bounce off him and he spends too much time on the deck. So I can see why TT sticks with Werner or sometimes puts in Havertz and I expect that's what he'll do next Wednesday and have Giroud and Tammy on the bench if we find ourselves needing a goal in the second half.

That said,  I would have Werner on the training ground practicing his finishing from dawn to dusk every f**king day up until next Wednesday.................!! 

Bang on Nibs.

I wonder @Nibs if we are looking for a goal will he use Giroud or Tammy? I am not sure, think more likely Ziyech and Havertz would be used.

Far as Werner practicing goes, no way he has not been for months already. Does nothing to help as the problem imo is in his head, he does not appear to trust himself and the pressure is mounted on him.

Just now, axman2526 said:

I wonder @Nibs if we are looking for a goal will he use Giroud or Tammy? I am not sure, think more likely Ziyech and Havertz would be used.

Far as Werner practicing goes, no way he has not been for months already. Does nothing to help as the problem imo is in his head, he does not appear to trust himself and the pressure is mounted on him.

You could be right - Havertz and Ziyech seem to be his go-to subs of preference. Hopefully we will be in a position where we are comfortable in the second half and not need to worry!

Apparently he has missed 23 big chances this season, that is a staggering amount. If he was 70% clinical on those he would have 16 more goals.

The season ain't even over yet lads...

4 hours ago, Bob stark said:

Tammy scored 15 goals last season in PL

Yet when it truly came to crunch time Lampard favoured a striker who scored 5 PL goals in two years previously.

3 hours ago, petre ispirescu said:

The guy has scored 95 goals in 159 matches in his four seasons with Leipzig, last season he's had 34 goals in 45 matches. I mean he CAN score, there is no doubt about it, I agree he does not look the most technically gifted player, but he's not had average numbers either, technically he was the exact same players at Leipzig, too, same touch, same dribbling, same passes, same speed, the only difference is he'd bang them goals for fun.

Which for me indicates some sort of mental block, think he is the introvert type of guy who at Leipzig was in the perfect environment to flourish. Now he is at a huge club, media is all over him, pressure is big, especially for a striker as he's been brought to score goals, think he might just be a little bit overwhelmed about this.

Salah's departure has thaught me a lesson not to rule players off that soon. I was sure he was just a skinny speed merchant that was maybe going to return to PL to play for Palace after years of failing for mid table Italian and French clubs. And look at him now after all these years. All he needed was a confidence boost, hope it's the case for Werner, too.

Salah also put goalposts in his backyard and trained on his finishing. He always had the speed and movement but his finishing is subpar. 

Maybe Werner needs to practice shooting even in his free time?