I lol'd

Sorry if it has already been posted. 

28 minutes ago, Argo said:

Lukaku being compared to Hazard and Mbappe took the piss enough but now Messi and Ronaldo😂🤣

 

Where did he compare their quality, this is a strawman argument.

1 hour ago, dkw said:

I hate that we expect our front line striker to press, its completely counter productive. Say he presses the defender out wide, who then makes a mistake and we get the ball. The striker is then completely out of position and has no role to play in the counter.

Or he spends 35 minutes chasing defenders down, he's knackered and unable to get into position for an attack, or have the strength to hold the ball up.

Complete waste of time, his job is to score, leave him doing that.

This modern desperation for everyone to press for 90 minutes is ridiculous. 

That's what happens when teams/managers pull away with certain tactics, the rest have to follow to catch up or they get left behind, you only need to look at Jose and Wenger as case studies.

It's no different to how all in sundry wanted to copy Fergie and his flying wingers, Wenger and his unprecedented (at the time) diet requirements or Mourinho and his 433. 

26 minutes ago, Argo said:

Lukaku being compared to Hazard and Mbappe took the piss enough but now Messi and Ronaldo😂🤣

When he starts scoring between 50 and 70 goals a season like those two did for years with a decent chunk of them being against Man.City, Liverpool and in the UCL latter stages then we'll talk.

As for Benzema, he pretty much became the ultimate team player during the Ronaldo era at Madrid. He was pretty much for the Portuguese what Firmino is/was for Mane and Salah.

I don’t think anyone thinks that Lukaku is of the level of Ronaldo, Messi, Hazard or Mbappe but if you make any of them totally press each of those players become less effective in what they are special at. 
Just like Lukaku, if you concentrate on just making him press you lose a lot of what we bought him for which I presume is goals.

There is a balance to be found in any of these players in how much they can press and close down passing channels and still remain sharp in front of goal.

BTW I never considered Messi as someone who didn’t press. He picked his moments and worked very hard in the press when it counted. 

1 minute ago, dkw said:

Where did he compare their quality, this is a strawman argument.

He responded to a point about Lukaku's work rate by saying those two aren't exactly pressers (well Messi actually was under Pep by I digress).

I didn't once complain about Hazard's lack of workrate in 7 years because what he delivered (and I'm not just talking about goals and assists) justified the sacrifices. Do you honestly think Rom is at that point? I've gone past the point of even talking about pressing now, just general workrate, does his overall output justify an excemption? 

5 minutes ago, Argo said:

He responded to a point about Lukaku's work rate by saying those two aren't exactly pressers (well Messi actually was under Pep by I digress).

I didn't once complain about Hazard's lack of workrate in 7 years because what he delivered (and I'm not just talking about goals and assists) justified the sacrifices. Do you honestly think Rom is at that point? I've gone past the point of even talking about pressing now, just general workrate, does his overall output justify an excemption? 

He didn't once compare their quality.

3 minutes ago, goose said:

I don’t think anyone thinks that Lukaku is of the level of Ronaldo, Messi, Hazard or Mbappe but if you make any of them totally press each of those players become less effective in what they are special at. 
Just like Lukaku, if you concentrate on just making him press you lose a lot of what we bought him for which I presume is goals.

There is a balance to be found in any of these players in how much they can press and close down passing channels and still remain sharp in front of goal.

BTW I never considered Messi as someone who didn’t press. He picked his moments and worked very hard in the press when it counted. 

Salah and Mane manage it, all of City and Bayern's forwards do aswell. The likes of Hazard and Ronaldo got exceptions but even players of that calibre had the likes of Willian, Rooney and Benzema working double as hard to counteract.

The idea of pressing is to take the ball of the opponents sharply and as a result actually end up having the ball more often, and having possesion is a lot less tiring that not under any circumstances.

Maybe Lukaku doesn't need to work as hard off the ball but then he should represent a constant threat that makes defenders unable to relax, like D.Costa used to do.

D.Costa could take some pressure off from the defenders just by his presence and while ready to run into space if the opportunity arrives, he could be close but not too close to waste his energy while chasing down defenders, I haven't noticed that Lukaku can do that at such a level that it actually bothers the backline.

46 minutes ago, AlexTommo said:

I lol'd

Sorry if it has already been posted. 

Lukaku at Christmas party

Argo mate its style and approach not absolute ability. Of course Lukaku isn't those guys.

Lukaku is 100 kg if you believe the internet. You seriously want a guy like that pressing for 90 minutes?  Werner is 76 kg. He can run around and press all day. That's not Lukaku's game. Lukaku's game is to use that weight, height and power to dominate the space he is in at the time, like the assist he should have had for Pulisic.

Whether you think that's right or wrong style for this Chelsea side is one thing, trying to turn him into Havertz or Werner is another.

He does make runs and and is surprisingly mobile for a big guy. 

 

Edited January 8, 20224 yr by ozboy

14 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

Maybe Lukaku doesn't need to work as hard off the ball but then he should represent a constant threat that makes defenders unable to relax, like D.Costa used to do.

D.Costa could take some pressure off from the defenders just by his presence and while ready to run into space if the opportunity arrives, he could be close but not too close to waste his energy while chasing down defenders, I haven't noticed that Lukaku can do that at such a level that it actually bothers the backline.

Yep, Diego Costa was both a hard worker, and a much better player.

Even when Costa had his days where he couldn't pass a ball striaght he still had his uses.

1 minute ago, ozboy said:

Argo mate its style and approach not absolute ability. Of course Lukaku isn't those guys.

Lukaku is 100 kg if you believe the internet. You seriously want a guy like that pressing for 90 minutes?  Werner is 76 kg. He can run around and press all day. That's not Lukaku's game. Lukaku's game is to use that weight, height and power to dominate the space he is in at the time, like the assist he should have had for Pulisic.

Whether you think that's right or wrong style for this Chelsea side is one thing, trying to turn him into Havertz or Werner is another.

He does make runs and and is surprisingly mobile for a big guy. 

 

Well yes I wouldn't have signed him in the first place but that's another argument. We literally had his profile of player already here if this was the route we wanted to go.

1 hour ago, Argo said:

Salah and Mane manage it, all of City and Bayern's forwards do aswell. The likes of Hazard and Ronaldo got exceptions but even players of that calibre had the likes of Willian, Rooney and Benzema working double as hard to counteract.

The idea of pressing is to take the ball of the opponents sharply and as a result actually end up having the ball more often, and having possesion is a lot less tiring that not under any circumstances.

Different type of players. Harry Kane, top Premiership striker for many years doesn’t bust his gut pressing, but chooses when to. Lukaku to me is more of a Kane type striker and I’m talking Kane CF not this hybrid thing that he sometimes falls back into.

5 minutes ago, goose said:

Different type of players. Harry Kane, top Premiership striker for many years doesn’t bust his gut pressing, but chooses when to. Lukaku to me is more of a Kane type striker and I’m talking Kane CF not this hybrid thing that he sometimes falls back into.

Kane did in the peak Pochettino days, probably the best we've played against in terms of forcing mistakes from opponents outside of teams managed by Pep.

I think the point @Argo is making is that if Lukaku wants to be/be treated as the luxury player, he would need to back it up with huge numbers first, not the other way around 

18 minutes ago, Deino said:

I think the point @Argo is making is that if Lukaku wants to be/be treated as the luxury player, he would need to back it up with huge numbers first, not the other way around 

Thankyou. It doesn't just have to be numbers, if he started influcing games for us like Hazard use too then sweet. But yes that's the standard if he wants a workrate excemption, I find the idea to give that to someone who ghosts almost every big game and even drifts in and out of his bread and butter one's bewildering.

However let's be honest he will never hit the required level for all round play so it's down to numbers, they have to go through the roof for a workrate excemption to even be a consideration.

That might be fine in theory. In practice Lukaku isn’t going to be gang pressing. Not even if Argo is out on the pitch with a cat o 9 tails. Not only won’t he do it, it would be counter productive. 
 

the key to making a success of lukaku is not to turn him into something different but to make him maximize what he offers. You want him to get his numbers up, by having him in the best shape, full of confidence, him trusting his team mates and vice versa. 

46 minutes ago, ozboy said:

That might be fine in theory. In practice Lukaku isn’t going to be gang pressing. Not even if Argo is out on the pitch with a cat o 9 tails. Not only won’t he do it, it would be counter productive. 
 

the key to making a success of lukaku is not to turn him into something different but to make him maximize what he offers. You want him to get his numbers up, by having him in the best shape, full of confidence, him trusting his team mates and vice versa. 

Then that begs the question, why did we appoint a manager who favours all action tactics and then sign a player who is the athesis of that? 

If we wanted to build the team around a lazy Lukaku then we should have just reappointed Benitez and committed to setting up a counter attacking team.

1 minute ago, Argo said:

Then that begs the question, why did we appoint a manager who favours all action tactics and then sign a player who is the athesis of that? 

If we wanted to build the team around a lazy Lukaku then we should have just reappointed Benitez and committed to setting up a counter attacking team.

Agreed here. Our board does weird things. Conte wanted Lukaku who was perfect for him but we got him Morata, who ironically will do well in the current system. Then we get Tuchel and buy him a static Lukaku.

5 minutes ago, RomansRoubles said:

Agreed here. Our board does weird things. Conte wanted Lukaku who was perfect for him but we got him Morata, who ironically will do well in the current system. Then we get Tuchel and buy him a static Lukaku.

Speaking of ex players hypothetically playing for us right now, Eidur Gudjohnsen in his prime would be a dream for that fluid 9 role.

1 minute ago, Argo said:

Speaking of ex players hypothetically playing for us right now, Eidur Gudjohnsen in his prime would be a dream for that fluid 9 role.

Or Crespo

37 minutes ago, Argo said:

Then that begs the question, why did we appoint a manager who favours all action tactics and then sign a player who is the athesis of that? 

If we wanted to build the team around a lazy Lukaku then we should have just reappointed Benitez and committed to setting up a counter attacking team.

You must be winding me up so this will be my last comment for a while. . Not pressing doesn’t mean he’s  lazy. It means that big body only has a limited  amount of energy and it’s better used in attacking than pressing. He wasn’t bought for pressing. He was bought so that the team would score more goals. Hopefully he scores some of them 20 a season is about the mark in the league. 
 

you really think he’s lazy? Ffs. How do you get picked for Belgium, Everton, Man u, inter Milan and now Chelsea if your lazy. I’m wasting my time in this conversation. 

9 minutes ago, ozboy said:

You must be winding me up so this will be my last comment for a while. . Not pressing doesn’t mean he’s  lazy. It means that big body only has a limited  amount of energy and it’s better used in attacking than pressing. He wasn’t bought for pressing. He was bought so that the team would score more goals. Hopefully he scores some of them 20 a season is about the mark in the league. 

 

Either way it amounts to the same thing, that he doesn't suit the system we play and the way Tuchel likes to operate as a manager.

If we're going all in on playing to Lukaku's strengths and everything else being secondary then we should have appointed a counter attacking manager who doesn't care about front foot possesion based football.

Like RR has said it appears yet more examples of scattered squad building which I genuinely thought was a thing of the past.

3 hours ago, RomansRoubles said:

Or Crespo

I kind of lean towards Lukaku being more like Crespo or like other more classical type of strikers, maybe I'm wrong it was a long time ago so I barely remember how Crespo played.

33 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

I kind of lean towards Lukaku being more like Crespo or like other more classical type of strikers, maybe I'm wrong it was a long time ago so I barely remember how Crespo played.

One of my favorite players at Chelsea. Unfortunately he got homesick. He had everything. Excellent finisher,  dribbler and good work rate. I frankly wouldnt even compare him with Lukaku. This article below has a few good highlights.

https://thelaziali.com/2019/06/24/hernan-crespo-lazio-legend-profile-biancocelesti/