30 minutes ago, Sexyfootball said:

I think the point is that any top player still needs multiple chances to score. Our lot don't get enough chances, mainly down to all the things Joe was talking about, and hence they have to be more clinical in their conversion rate than say Salah, Kane etc have to be ... which all adds to the pressure. 

That has been the case in the last month or two maybe but if we look at the last 10 months, plenty of chances to score more goals.

Liverpool doesn't have creative midfielders, our midfield is better I dare to say but that doesn't stop Salah from scoring much and from getting into chances.

Be an easy way to see if he is right or not. We have some elite forwards at Chelsea so give them a go and see if creative is the problem or not.

Kirby, Kerr and Harder.

I dont any of the forwards are bad players, but they dont really suit how we play alot of the time. If we are going to play a heavy possession game, slow build up, then when we arrive in the final 3rd, we need players with excellent close control, vision, movement, and passing. This probably suits Mount more than any other attacker. 

If we play more direct, so we win the ball, and look to play forward balls in the channels, over the top, or up to the striker and play off him, then i think that would suit more of the attackers, especially Lukaku, Werner, Pulisic, and Havertz. 

At the moment we are stuck in between, whether that is intentional, or fatigue on the side of the players, but we arent playing direct, so by the time we reach the final 3rd, we run out of ideas, especially now we cant stretch teams across the pitch without Chilwell and James. 

Honestly I think until the wing backs are sorted out, we would better playing deeper, and more on the counter, stick with a 3 for a few games, for me that would be Mount, Havertz, Lukaku, and just try and break at teams quickly. 

No attacking player would flourish in this current setup without dynamic wing backs/full backs to get around the back of teams by overloading the flanks.

3 hours ago, Sexyfootball said:

I think the point is that any top player still needs multiple chances to score. Our lot don't get enough chances, mainly down to all the things Joe was talking about, and hence they have to be more clinical in their conversion rate than say Salah, Kane etc have to be ... which all adds to the pressure. 

It make sense if one or two fw  is not working. But in our case all of our forwards are out of form and that includes mount who is arguably our most consistent attacker.

It is so hard to watch us play offensively. We play very2 slow with two old wb who has no one on one skill providing width. With 3 cb required because we don't have the midfield to protect them.

1 hour ago, big blue said:

I dont any of the forwards are bad players, but they dont really suit how we play alot of the time. If we are going to play a heavy possession game, slow build up, then when we arrive in the final 3rd, we need players with excellent close control, vision, movement, and passing. This probably suits Mount more than any other attacker. 

If we play more direct, so we win the ball, and look to play forward balls in the channels, over the top, or up to the striker and play off him, then i think that would suit more of the attackers, especially Lukaku, Werner, Pulisic, and Havertz. 

At the moment we are stuck in between, whether that is intentional, or fatigue on the side of the players, but we arent playing direct, so by the time we reach the final 3rd, we run out of ideas, especially now we cant stretch teams across the pitch without Chilwell and James. 

Honestly I think until the wing backs are sorted out, we would better playing deeper, and more on the counter, stick with a 3 for a few games, for me that would be Mount, Havertz, Lukaku, and just try and break at teams quickly. 

No attacking player would flourish in this current setup without dynamic wing backs/full backs to get around the back of teams by overloading the flanks.

One easy solution is to play back 4 and play two out n out winger to provide the width. But after a few games, I guarantee there will be lots of complain.

I am currently more confident when I see Ziyech and Mount in our attack. @Munkworth yes yes that is why he has not scored for a while,  I know. 😉

Hakim has started to look the part  and is working harder. 

Mount always has an eye for a pass and a decent strike.

The rest....horrible. if only one could step up and make a good front 3 with the other 2 

30 minutes ago, axman2526 said:

I am currently more confident when I see Ziyech and Mount in our attack. @Munkworth yes yes that is why he has not scored for a while,  I know. 😉

He assisted the first goal today didn’t he? I didn’t actually see it due to something kicking off up in Westview (yes - kicking off in the posh seats, it really did happen). 

Not confident in them as individuals, in their decision making or vision.

Not confident in them as a unit  - completely broken and dysfunctional. Slow and predictable.

13 minutes ago, Munkworth said:

He assisted the first goal today didn’t he? I didn’t actually see it due to something kicking off up in Westview (yes - kicking off in the posh seats, it really did happen). 

In other words you started something.

43 minutes ago, axman2526 said:

In other words you started something.

Just now, Munkworth said:

4 minutes ago, axman2526 said:

4 minutes ago, Munkworth said:

You taught your cat well Clearly;)

 

Actually I think in this formation 3 of the 4 players starting in the front line are the correct calls. Ziyech is a lot better out wide.

In my opinion we're Lukaku getting dropped for Kai away from having the best front line in this system.

Lukaku and Werner are not good enough for us, any further patience given to them is only going to hurt us.

24 goals in Serie A and 28 goals in Bundesliga respectively before they joined was clearly the selling point but those numbers were made in special circumstances that won't be replicated in the Premier League.

Sell both and move on, it's not hard to find a player that plays like Lukaku and Werner have done for us this season. Pretty sure many Championship teams have some bigger guy like Lukaku that can use his body to protect the ball a bit but that ultimately isn't doing much and a runner like Werner that can't do anything with the ball.

I was encouraged by Havertz creating that goal from wide on the left with Alonso slotting in.

Though I would struggle to see any other player maybe creating the same.

Mount and Ziyech are the next best for me and Azpi is good also looking for the opportunity in the box.

I don't think you can play them all you need s direct threat too to confuse the opposition. 

I'm very disappointed with Lukaku twice now in recent matches he has got the ball to feet in space with one defender to beat, doesn't  even really need to beat the defender just run direct get the angle and hit it.

He collects the ball looks at the defender then pauses and looks for the pass,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, lack of confidence, limited player, hidden brain injury, I'm not sure. 

Both of our goals yesterday were scored by our fullbacks. It's a testament to how great our defenders have been so far this season that we're still 3rd in the table and are still alive in all the cups.  Given the form of our attackers, it's nothing short of a miracle.

All jokes aside, if we played Alonso up front, I am 99% sure he would score more goals than either Werner or Lukaku.

We are at a point in time where it is one of those 'come to Jesus moments'.   Big decisions have to be made both at managerial and Board room level this summer.  The conundrum of who to play up front and in the middle of the park seriously needs to be addressed.  We have been a team historically that have had attacking midfielders that can chip in and score goals throughout the season when the forwards have had the off day.  At this moment in time neither of our midfielders have the drive, the ability or creativity to provide a consistent goal threat unless its 12 yards out by placing the ball on the penalty spot. The odd random worldly goal, aka Kovacic v Liverpool are one offs, on most days that would have ended up in row ZZZZ.  Kante is used sparingly and may come up with the odd goal now and then; Saul although a loaner could offer more if he can get game time and grow into the pace of the league; Barkley, well he is a loner.  After Frank left he has drifted into obscurity and I can only assume is still here because he needs his free wages and a poodle hair cut at the vets every week.  If Gallagher does get an opportunity next season he will certainly add some attacking menace; but there again TT's set up, and at times pragmatic style of play, may not suit Gallagher.  Only on the odd occasion have we seen our midfield grab a game by the balls and really dominate.  Without goals and creativity our midfield is pretty much offers nothing in the middle of the park or provide assistance to the forwards.

While the forwards by name only, have a reputation for being world class players and goal scorers, they have been pretty much a disaster since being assembled, almost like the 'dirty dozen', all playing as individuals, no cohesion, no sense of direction and no urgency.  Many simply drift through games, while others such as Werner run around with lots of energy but no direction. The mere fact that he can't hit a barn door since he has arrived has done nothing to enhance his reputation.  Havertz is a more technical player and should be given more playing time; for whatever reason he's had a difficult start to his CFC career, with injuries and illness, but he needs a run of games to find his rhythm and right players to play around him.  While I understand, based on last season, that we needed a goalscorer, Lukaku returning was never going to be a success.  First because there appeared to be a reluctance from the outset to leave Milan, which has been reinforced with his interview. Considering the style of play that Milan were playing, we were and still are playing the complete opposite, slow build up, lots of possession going nowhere.  While Tammy wasn't necessarily the answer, Lukaku certainly wasn't. Apart from running onto a through ball with no defenders between him and the goalkeeper, he's never been mobile or mindful enough in finding the spaces that other great strikers have the instinct to do so.  While Lukaku isn't the total reason that our attack is an abject failure, there are many just as complicit such as those playing out wide.  

I have never rated CHO as highly as other CFC fans or the pundits.  I watched many of his U23 games and while he was certainly above some other young players he was hardly pulling up trees consistently.  And while he would take on defenders and drift pass them occasionally and score a few goals, with the step up to the first team his shortcomings are glaringly obvious.  I like many others have watched every first team game for many seasons thanks to the wonder of TV, having left the UK in the 80's. having supported the club and gone to as many home games as I could during the end of the 60' and early 70's before military service kicked in.  I have seen players come and go, some with talent, some not so much, but those days were different...but I digress.  IMO CHO since his arrival in the first team squad which came with so much hype, he has shown desire, confidence or ability to take on a traffic cone,(tongue in cheek), let alone a defender even against the likes of Chesterfield and Plymouth, let alone against lower league PL teams.  And yes, there has been the odd game whereby he has scored, or finally decided to take on a defender resulting in a dangerous cross, but these are on the odd occasion; more often and not he cuts inside and either loses the ball or makes a safe 5 yard pass surpassing any forward momentum even when there are acres of space in front of him if he would have taken the defender on.   I watch the likes of Almiron and Albrighton who without fear take on defenders, yes they will not win every battle but more often than not they come out on top on a one on one and deliver a dangerous cross.  While some may argue that CHO is young, it just doesn't cut it for me any longer. He's played more than enough football to progress yet he's stagnated, offering little to assist getting us out of our goalscoring woes.  Pulisic has lost his mojo since Frank left. While no doubt he has the talent, his injuries and inconsistent form would suggest he's out the door in the summer.  Ziyech is a mystery to me.  Mr.Cool, never seems to put much effort in, comes up with the odd goal, always dangerous on his left foot and always comes off the pitch w/o a bead of sweat on him, so laid back in a coma at times. I think the jury is out on keeping him because his work rate IMO is not good enough to warrant a first team place every week.   And lastly Mason; a great young talent who in recent weeks seems to have lost his way. But despite his form he will always put a shift in and always is looking to create something.  I think all the chopping and changing up front has not helped him over the last few months to form a partnership with those surrounding him.  He is still an important player for Chelsea and while he plays as an attacking player he's not expected to score 15-20 goals a season unlike Werner, Lukaku and perhaps Havertz. 

Maybe things will improve when Chillwell and James reappear, I hope so, but regardless changes are needed...tactically or otherwise

Great post @CFCCAN - agree with pretty much every bit of it and nicely summarized.

With regards to our attackers, I went into this season very optimistic. Thought the mixture of a proper goal scorer like Lukaku, with Havertz & Werner then plus Pulicic, CHO, Ziyech and Mount, looked very promising and it was when the season started. But now pretty much all of them look woefully out of form, some to the extent where you start to question if they are good enough.

You watch the dippers, who currently have no Salah or Mane and yet Jota and Minamino both look a cut above our strikers. I would even take Origi over our crop right now and he hardly ever gets a game. 

Right now, you watch us struggle against sides like Plymouth and Brighton and get totally outplayed by Man City and wonder how on earth we managed to win the CL 8 months ago!

 

 

1 hour ago, Nibs said:

Great post @CFCCAN - agree with pretty much every bit of it and nicely summarized.

With regards to our attackers, I went into this season very optimistic. Thought the mixture of a proper goal scorer like Lukaku, with Havertz & Werner then plus Pulicic, CHO, Ziyech and Mount, looked very promising and it was when the season started. But now pretty much all of them look woefully out of form, some to the extent where you start to question if they are good enough.

You watch the dippers, who currently have no Salah or Mane and yet Jota and Minamino both look a cut above our strikers. I would even take Origi over our crop right now and he hardly ever gets a game. 

Right now, you watch us struggle against sides like Plymouth and Brighton and get totally outplayed by Man City and wonder how on earth we managed to win the CL 8 months ago!

 

 

Like yourself and many others, after an unexpected CL victory the season ahead looked promising and the pundits were salivating over the prospect of what we had to offer, now we see those same pundits returning to their darlings of the PL City and Loverpool.  But your right, Liverpool with less money seem to find the right players to fit the style of play that Klopp and those before him offered.  That can be said with a few others around the league also who manage to find nuggets in lower leagues home and overseas or players from lesser teams; Suarez, Vardy, Torres immediately come to mind, whereas we seemingly throw darts at a dart board when it comes to forwards and centre forwards especially in most recent years.  If TT is staying then let's build the team that he wants.  We are not scoring because of his tactics, far from it, we are not scoring goals because the players we have are simply not capable on a consistent basis.  Apart from Drogba and Costa most recently we have been abysmal at finding someone to put the ball in the net.  We could discuss till the cows come home and never come up with the solution.

Guess next question in this line of thought is how confident are we in our forwards to help us beat Al-Hilal in the CWC semi? Or will see see Oghalo completely out do them?

35 minutes ago, axman2526 said:

Guess next question in this line of thought is how confident are we in our forwards to help us beat Al-Hilal in the CWC semi?

8 minutes ago, Munkworth said:

I’d be more confident in McClaren and Casper slithering around

11 minutes ago, Ballack & Blu said:

I’d be more confident in McClaren and Casper slithering around

At least we’d have some decent carpeting and maybe a few Fun & Laughter Bars (chocolate sh*te in a nutty cuddle) for sale at The Bridge!