Our forwards, how confident are you in them...

[axman2526]

To turn this around and deliver for us?

I mean I can see in general through all of their respective threads bar Mounts that many on here doubt our other 6 forwards in some capacity.

You know what made me think of this and thought was even more damning of Werner, Havertz, Ziyech, Pulisic and even Lukaku? Media rumours United are selling Lingard and Martial in January and thinking to myself they may deliver better for us than those five...

Not saying we should buy them, just saying how unimpressed I am to feel that way about 2 United rejects...

Edited December 18, 2021 by axman2526

[PhilH930]

For the most part pretty underwhelmed by what we have seen during their time at Chelsea (excluding Mason)
- Mount is the exception to your list, but I'm still not sure he is a forward, and would be best in a 4-3-3 as a no.8
- Havertz still retains the promise to me.  His movement is superb, and workrate second to none.  Just seems casual at times and misses some absolute sitters
- Lukaku is too early to judge for me.  Clearly not fit post ankle injury.  Arrived a beast and looked the part, then the wheels came off
- Werner, Pulisic and Ziyech aren't cutting it.  Pulisic less so, but still needs to stay injury free and find form.  The reason I say less so is we do not have any other player that is willing to get in the 6 yard box to score their goals

That aside, they can't all be bad players, and were stars of their respective teams.  This isn't the first time in the Roman era, and sadly seems to be the norms for forwards excluding Drogba, Robben, Duff, Crespo, Anelka (to an extent), Hazard and Costa.  Think how long the other list is - scary to think.  Makes me wonder what it is about our inherent style, training or anything else that sees too few players improve after signing for us.  My two cents is our midfield stifles creative play and in the current system a low block is pretty easy to defend against.  All the above players thrive on running from deep or in behind, yet we play sideways on the opponents 18 yard line.  Myabe its time the system tweaked to play to the strengths of the players,

Anyway, I wouldn't take either of the Utd players you mentioned,

[axman2526]

23 minutes ago, PhilH930 said:

Anyway, I wouldn't take either of the Utd players you mentioned,

Me neither, just thought was a disappointing thought that they would probably provide mote goals for us than the others do. Bar Mount.

[haviet1]

Rather than spending money buying more forwards, especially rejects from lesser clubs.

I think it's better to tweak your systems and styles to exploit the skills that your current forwards possess.

I mean these guys are not bad, they command $50M+ in the market; that's why you go bought them.

 

 

[axman2526]

5 minutes ago, haviet1 said:

Rather than spending money buying more forwards, especially rejects from lesser clubs.

I think it's better to tweak your systems and styles to exploit the skills that your current forwards possess.

I mean these guys are not bad, they command $50M+ in the market; that's why you go bought them.

 

 

Maybe that would work, but would adjusting our system make Bakayoko and Drinkwater look like 35mill midfielders?

[haviet1]

Not sure about Bakayoko, but isn't Drinkwater the guy that just want to go to bars and get drunk?

[axman2526]

31 minutes ago, haviet1 said:

Not sure about Bakayoko, but isn't Drinkwater the guy that just want to go to bars and get drunk?

Lol yeah he has made a waste of his career since he joined us.

My point was that they looked good at their former teams, cost a lot of money at the time, and they just don't have it. Their big fees are just a suken cost on us and poor reflection on our choice to sign them rather than hidden value.

So while Werner, Pulisic, Havertz, Lukaku and Ziyech cost varying degrees of big cash that does not make them actually top level, as in if we played a system to suit them they would deliver like Salah, who Liverpool give the freedom to express himself in brilliant ways.

I would be very curious to see what Klopp did with CP, if he replaced Mane with him and made him that good. Could happen, maybe we will find out.

[Bob stark]

So do we need judge forwards on their production now ?

I thought we need to judge. forward solelly baded their ability to run around creating space,pressing.

Edited December 18, 2021 by Bob stark

[venom2011]

50 minutes ago, Bob stark said:

So do we need judge forwards on their production now ?

I thought we need to judge. forward solelly baded their ability to run around creating space,pressing.

Well it depends on the system and the results really. E.g. Ronaldo is almost pure productivity - he doesn't shine in system-specific areas. If he played in a Pep system, that would be problematic. But we create more than enough chances for our forwards to be more productive (goals, assists, and key passes). By the end of this season it will be 2-3 years of mediocrity really. 

The only forwards I give a pass to are Lukaku, Havertz, Mount and Odoi. The latter 3 are on the young side and inconsistencies are natural. Lukaku just needs to be fit and available. 

The rest are easily replaceable and we should be looking for a forward that can match the ability of the best City and Liverpool have to offer. We are currently nowhere near. 

At around the 35th min vs Everton, Ziyech had a simple ball on the edge of the box to play in RLC 1v1 with the keeper. Instead he took a potshot that ended up well wide. It must be incredibly frustrating for Tuchel to see that time and time again. 

[KonaKai Blue]

I've lost confidence in our attack. Too timid.

[Shodai]

I have no faith in them. Timo just doesn’t look like he will ever adapt to the premier league. Ziyech looks even less likely. Pulisic looks like he is made of glass so can’t get a run of games. CHO just reminds me of Gronkjaer. All he does is run and no end product. Lukaku is the same player that United sold because he wasn’t good enough. Conte made him look a lot better than he is and we were suckered into paying over 90 million for him. 
Havertz is probably the best “striker” we have although he is more of a false 9. He just isn’t consistent enough for me. 
Then we have Mason Mount. He is the best attacking player we have. When he isn’t playing it clearly shows. 

[Munkunku]

If @axman2526 has lost confidence in them then surely they’re all about to completely turn it around and become 20+ goal strikers.

 

Edited December 18, 2021 by Munkworth

[Jackson27]

Well Based On The Current System We Play, I Feel They Are Doing Okay Essentially

If We Keep The Current System Then We Might Need To Buy Different Forwards That Benefit The System More

[abramovich]

It's not about the system, they're just not good enough individually. Hazard was our most important player for years, was notorious for being lazy in training and yet he delivered on the pitch under every manager/system we employed over the years. 36-year old Ronaldo has scored 12 goals so far this season in a struggling United side, most of those goals came under an incompetent ex-manager with no system to speak of.

We just have to admit that we got fleeced at the transfer market. I was very excited when we bought Havertz/Werner/Ziyech but only Kai looks like someone who at least has potential to become top class attacker, Timo and Hakim have no future here. CHO should have been loaned out like we did with other youngsters, he still has no end product and he's wasting a valuable time instead of following in the footsteps of Gallagher/Gilmour etc. Pulisic can be great when he's fit but he almost never is and his recent form makes me wonder if those injuries took their toll on his body, because he looks a shadow of the player he used to be, I hope I'm wrong. My frustration with Lukaku deal is well documented, but at least he has an excuse for not having done much due to a bad luck with an injury and Covid.

So, I feel that unless their form drastically improves between now and end of the season, Werner, Ziyech, Pulisic and CHO may and probably should be looking for new clubs. It's probably not going to happen due to the cost of replacing them but I just don't see us building a title contender with this group of attacking players if their current form doesn't improve significantly, and soon. As for Lukaku, he won't be going anywhere because of the transfer fee anyway, although ideally I'd sell him too.

 

Edited December 18, 2021 by abramovich

[axman2526]

1 hour ago, Munkworth said:

If @axman2526 has lost confidence in them then surely they’re all about to completely turn it around and become 20+ goal strikers.

 

What I see when our forwards get chances:

You can hear the music too, least I can, and most of the time it proves accurate.

[Scott Harris]

I have little confidence in any of them because they have proven game after game that they can't kill a game off for us. I have never seen so many players not take so many simple chances. Some of them can't even be trusted from 2 yards out because they somehow manage to mess it up (Werner)

Lukaku doesn't suit the system so he ends up going through games where he looks like a liability. I really don't understand how Tuchel thought Abraham didn't suit us but a player like Lukaku does. The guy has no agility, has a terrible touch and his passing looks as awkward as Zouma's. We all knew this before he arrived though, it's just a shame the people that matter couldn't see it.

Werner runs like a headless chicken, can't seem to beat a single Premier League defender, is offside way too often, has almost all of his shots blocked. The ones that don't get blocked usually end up being a terrible miss.

Hudson-Odoi's overall end product is lacking, but he was showing very promising signs before Tuchel stupidly dropped him.

Havertz has the quality, he just plays too many games in a casual style. Every single finish he attempts has to be flashy. He never just hits it hard into the bottom corner or get a shot away early, he's always looking for the keeper to make the first move so he can calmly hit it through their legs or chip it over them. They aren't stupid though and they don't fall for it, by the time Havertz realises, he messes up the shot or the defender recovers. I also don't think the way we play suits him, I think we will need a change in formation if we are ever going to see the best of Havertz.

Pulisic has been missing since his injury against Arsenal in the FA cup final. Looks like he has a bit of mental block playing for us these days.

Ziyech is a bag of tricks.........it's just shame that most of the time those tricks do nothing but give the ball away. What has happened to his passing, especially the long range ones? He was a specialist at it with Ajax, but he doesn't seem capable of picking out a single good pass for us.

Mount, more of a midfielder than forward, but still better than anybody else in the team right now when it comes to end product. As good as he has been of late though, even he could be a lot better in front of goal.

 

[JM7]

Over £300m spent on forwards and none of them are consistent. So depressing. If I was a forward, I wouldn’t sign for Chelsea. We ruin them. 

[pesape]

I posted the following in the Pulisic thread after the Everton game, but it makes more sense here…

……

I kind of hate TT's current system.  None of the forwards have looked good, and there's got to be a reason for that.  Pulisic is not a striker; Havertz is not a striker.  Pulisic's best position is wide left.  I'd like to see Havertz in an attacking mid position alongside Mount.  Put CHO wide right.  Lukaku up top.  Obviously James at RB.  Maybe Cesar at LB with Chillwell out.  Rudiger and Christensen at CB.  The problem is DM.  I don't think Jorginho can play that role.  I would love to see Declan Rice there.  This would be a question mark for now.

There's more goals in that line up.  Not as rigid defensively, but we're in a bad patch there anyway.

…..

I think Tuchel originally implemented the 343 to stop the bad defense during the end of Lampard’s run.  It obviously worked, but it’s time to switch it up and play to the players strengths.

[PhilH930]

1 hour ago, axman2526 said:

What I see when our forwards get chances:

You can hear the music too, least I can, and most of the time it proves accurate.

My go to theme is the Benny Hill song, but Chuckle Brothers fits.  To me, to you.

[forbzy]

When we have had all our players available, Tuchel's system has been effective because it makes us very difficult to score against. That has put us in a great place to win when we are able to score a goal or 2, especially with our defenders chipping in with a healthy number of goals. However on the flip side our attackers have not flourished under this system. Problem is that if we switch to a system that favors our strikers it will likely reduce the effectiveness of our defensive set up with the current personnel. I do ultimately think that is the direction we should head in but I think we need the right players elsewhere in the squad to achieve it.

[Gol15]

 

[Shodai]

1 hour ago, JM7 said:

Over £300m spent on forwards and none of them are consistent. So depressing. If I was a forward, I wouldn’t sign for Chelsea. We ruin them. 

Is it that we ruin them or that we just buy the wrong ones for the way we play?

[big blue]

I think there are 2 issues. 

The 1st is the system makes it very hard for the front 3, because the spare man is usually a wing back.

The 2nd is we have too many players to keep happy, which leads to constant rotation and a real lack of chemistry. 

I have always preferred 433 or 4231, I would to see us find a centre back partnership and midfield combination that would allow us to play with a back 4, as i think it would bemefit the attack alot. 

Having said all that, its still pretty obvious all the attacking players haven't lived up to expectations. I think Mount, Lukaku, Havertz, is the best 3 we have have.

[ducavis]

32 minutes ago, Shodai said:

Is it that we ruin them or that we just buy the wrong ones for the way we play?

Well we bought them to play 4-3-3, the manager comes in & wins the CL playing a 3-4-3 built on a solid defence & here we are. I just don’t see any of them flourishing under the system, which begs the question do you just take a hit & bin them all, or should the manager adapt his tactics to get the best out of them?

[JM7]

Feels a little bit like the 3-4-3 has gone abit stale and maybe it’s time to switch it up abit. Eventually all systems will get worked out