4 minutes ago, Argo said:

We do have a consistent creator though, pressing. When done right teams can't get out, we win the ball quickly and create a very high number of chances (all be it waste far too many). 

The fact we don't have a player creator makes the pressing even more important.

Pressing is a form of attack when done right and at our best under TT we have done that well. However it is a tactic that only works well when the other team has the ball. Where we have looked poor this season is in many games where we have had the vast majority of possession but failed to carve out enough quality chances. In those games our midfield looks totally lacking in a playmaker at times. We spend way too much time passing the ball back and forth without asking questions of the opposition defense. This has been an issue for many years now and not just under TT. It also provides some explanation why so many of our strikers have struggled. Last time we had a striker regularly scoring was Costa and he could rely on Fab and Hazard to open up defenses.

At his best Kovacic offers a bit of creativity but I think on some games we need to sacrifice some of our defensive strategy for a creative midfield option.

17 minutes ago, coco said:

I wish it was that simple, that's what got us in this predicament, going after players with a basic criteria like "creates chances" or "scores goals" without considering how they fit in the team. It would be a better idea to get players that fit the system.

I do agree to an extent, I can't help but feel a lot of our attackers now could leave, join another big team and would look a lot better in a different system.

Imo the 3atb system is just holding too many of them back. Something tells me Salah and other elite goal scorers would even struggle in our system because of the lack of creativity behind them. 

It's also quite hard to get players that suit 3atb elite forwards are not easy to find and the ones that can function well as an inside fwd don't come cheap.

13 minutes ago, Argo said:

We do have a consistent creator though, pressing. When done right teams can't get out, we win the ball quickly and create a very high number of chances (all be it waste far too many). 

The fact we don't have a player creator makes the pressing even more important.

Sadly we don't have a player creator to maximise chances outside of pressing and when we do press well (like vs liverpool) we don't have clinical enough players to punish opponents mistakes. The majority of our goals come from knocking at the door for so long rather than punishing individual or team mistakes and that is something that really needs to be addressed if we want to win the league, City and Liverpool do that so well.

14 minutes ago, LongtimerLurker said:

I do agree to an extent, I can't help but feel a lot of our attackers now could leave, join another big team and would look a lot better in a different system.

Imo the 3atb system is just holding too many of them back. Something tells me Salah and other elite goal scorers would even struggle in our system because of the lack of creativity behind them. 

It's also quite hard to get players that suit 3atb elite forwards are not easy to find and the ones that can function well as an inside fwd don't come cheap.

Sadly we don't have a player creator to maximise chances outside of pressing and when we do press well (like vs liverpool) we don't have clinical enough players to punish opponents mistakes. The majority of our goals come from knocking at the door for so long rather than punishing individual or team mistakes and that is something that really needs to be addressed if we want to win the league, City and Liverpool do that so well.

If we're not good enough to challenge City and Liverpool that for me makes us playing the pressing/fluid style even more paramount. If we're not going to win the league fine but then atleast let's go down in a blaze of glory and have some fun in the process (not to mention that style has proved a very effective cup formula and we have 4 of them still in play).

Honestly if the games are as enjoyable as Liverpool I'll be very content even if we don't always get the right results. Those type of games are what football is about, the City game just felt so lifeless full stop let alone by comparison, even when it looked like we may have sh*t housed a 0-0 i felt deflated.

The way we play with Lukaku as the focal point can only really be justified if the results arrive alongside it, if they don't then what do we actually get out of it?

27 minutes ago, forbzy said:

Pressing is a form of attack when done right and at our best under TT we have done that well. However it is a tactic that only works well when the other team has the ball. Where we have looked poor this season is in many games where we have had the vast majority of possession but failed to carve out enough quality chances. In those games our midfield looks totally lacking in a playmaker at times. We spend way too much time passing the ball back and forth without asking questions of the opposition defense. This has been an issue for many years now and not just under TT. It also provides some explanation why so many of our strikers have struggled. Last time we had a striker regularly scoring was Costa and he could rely on Fab and Hazard to open up defenses.

At his best Kovacic offers a bit of creativity but I think on some games we need to sacrifice some of our defensive strategy for a creative midfield option.

I agree when teams bypass it with long ball the games can become very frustrating but on the flip side, maybe that's why some decide to do it against Lukaku less Chelsea teams? Because the majority (even elite sides like Real) who tried to take us on in a football match in the Tuchel part of last season got completely outplayed (all be it we let some off the hook with post finishing).

10 hours ago, Bob stark said:

If it were up to me forward pick is

Mount - Havertz -Lukaku or

Havertz - Lukaku

Mount

Just play Lukaku as rf, watching Lukaku keep losing the ball as no 9 give me headache, just ask him to attack right hand channel.

If you want Rom as a RF then Timo has to play the 9 to make more space for others.

 

Rom----Mount/Havertz/etc

 

Timo

4 minutes ago, axman2526 said:

If you want Rom as a RF then Timo has to play the 9 to make more space for others.

 

Rom----Mount/Havertz/etc

 

Timo

Timo rarely recycles the ball, might work with Havertz up top as he recycles more balls though makes less runs than Timo.

Havertz up top, Timo working either side, Mount in behind. Stick with them and give them a proper run of games, through bad form if needed. Lukaku occasional starter against cannon fodder and impact off the bench, Tuchel will give him the "Superman off the bench" BS to feed his ego.

3 hours ago, coco said:

Havertz up top, Timo working either side, Mount in behind. Stick with them and give them a proper run of games, through bad form if needed. Lukaku occasional starter against cannon fodder and impact off the bench, Tuchel will give him the "Superman off the bench" BS to feed his ego.

I suspect that would be Tuchel's preference. But doubt the board will tolerate their 100m striker becoming a bench warmer.

Thing is, I don't think any of our forwards are really as bad as they seem. It's just at CHelsea, as a unit, we're incapable of attacking. So much of our play is slow build up, passing sideways, backwards, out to the wingbacks, then back again, then across to the other side, probing for the perfect pass. You look at other teams and they attack with speed, they see spaces and they drive into them, or they play balls in behind. If we actually did that, I'm sure we'd be getting more out of most of them. But this has been a problem for a number of years, and hasn't seemed to change, regardless of players or manager.

5 minutes ago, Zeta said:

Thing is, I don't think any of our forwards are really as bad as they seem. It's just at CHelsea, as a unit, we're incapable of attacking. So much of our play is slow build up, passing sideways, backwards, out to the wingbacks, then back again, then across to the other side, probing for the perfect pass. You look at other teams and they attack with speed, they see spaces and they drive into them, or they play balls in behind. If we actually did that, I'm sure we'd be getting more out of most of them. But this has been a problem for a number of years, and hasn't seemed to change, regardless of players or manager.

True mate. Despite having plenty of pace in attack we never use it, endless passing before a forward gets the ball surrounded by defenders, , we've never shaken off Sarri ball, it's soul destroying to see attackers pointing into the space where they want the ball quickly played only for us to indulge in keep ball with no.end product

1 hour ago, forbzy said:

I suspect that would be Tuchel's preference. But doubt the board will tolerate their 100m striker becoming a bench warmer.

Maybe i'm being naive but i'd like to think if it led to us comfortably in top 4 and becoming serious contenders in the cups they'd let it slide.

23 minutes ago, Argo said:

Maybe i'm being naive but i'd like to think if it led to us comfortably in top 4 and becoming serious contenders in the cups they'd let it slide.

I agree - this idea the Lukaku has to play  because of the money spent on him may well be little more than a narrative invented by the fans. What’s the evidence? Roman’s moved on from many a shxt investment, in football and elsewhere, and isn’t one to fall victim to the sunk costs fallacy. Why would it be different this time? The idea that TT is going to lose his job if he doesn’t play Lukaku or if Lukaku doesn’t work out seems far-fetched. There are reasons why TT might (eventually will) be shown the door, but surely not this?

Edited January 17, 20224 yr by Dean

10 hours ago, Argo said:

Problem is Kante there doesn't really solve it either and unlike Jorgi doesn't play out from the back well enough to somewhat compensate. His overeagerness and naturally proactive nature to hunt the ball gets the better of him and when he fails to get it leaves a gaping hole. Was a problem when Conte did it pre formation switch aswell (Ozil's goal against us prime example).

When you play back 4 with two fb flying forward, your dm has to be able to protect the backline. You can find other solution to do build up but there is no other solution defensively.

Like you said Kante is not a natural dm, his instinct is to hunt first but it was irrelevant because Jorgi was very bad. 

 

Edited January 18, 20224 yr by Bob stark

7 minutes ago, Bob stark said:

When you play back 4 with two fb flying forward, your dm has to be able to protect the backline. You can find other solution to do build up but there is no other solution defensively.

Like you said Kante is not a natural dm, his instinct is to hunt first but it was irrelevant because Jorgi was very bad. 

 

He did his role just fine. 

I miss Giroud. What a quality player he was, such dedication and work ethic. Always put the team first.

9 hours ago, axman2526 said:

If you want Rom as a RF then Timo has to play the 9 to make more space for others.

 

Rom----Mount/Havertz/etc

 

Timo

For me Werner is opp specific player. High line,open space absolutely.

Against packed defense, no thank you.

Edited January 18, 20224 yr by Bob stark

5 hours ago, forbzy said:

I suspect that would be Tuchel's preference. But doubt the board will tolerate their 100m striker becoming a bench warmer.

We have 70 m gk on the bench. Lampard benched 70 m dm. 

2 hours ago, axman2526 said:

I miss Giroud. What a quality player he was, such dedication and work ethic. Always put the team first.

Very experienced and professional, he could come in at any point in the season and deliver.

13 hours ago, coco said:

Havertz up top, Timo working either side, Mount in behind. Stick with them and give them a proper run of games, through bad form if needed. Lukaku occasional starter against cannon fodder and impact off the bench, Tuchel will give him the "Superman off the bench" BS to feed his ego.

You would have to question why he sanctioned a £100m buy that doesn’t fit in his system then. Lukaku is very flawed, we all know that. Seems Tuchel didn’t get the memo, or didn’t carry out a careful analysis before buying him.

He needs to stop digging him out for criticism publicly because it never helps. Seems he expects him to adapt to his system, but he isn’t that type of forward. To get the best out of him, he will need to adapt a system to his needs. Move the ball upfield quicker, and go a bit more direct. He isn’t a forward for possession football.

36 minutes ago, ducavis said:

You would have to question why he sanctioned a £100m buy that doesn’t fit in his system then. Lukaku is very flawed, we all know that. Seems Tuchel didn’t get the memo, or didn’t carry out a careful analysis before buying him.

He needs to stop digging him out for criticism publicly because it never helps. Seems he expects him to adapt to his system, but he isn’t that type of forward. To get the best out of him, he will need to adapt a system to his needs. Move the ball upfield quicker, and go a bit more direct. He isn’t a forward for possession football.

It really is very simple, as you say he either needs to use him right or stop using him. Playing him as Tuchel is at the moment is a complete waste of his time and ours and accomplishes nothing.

1 minute ago, dkw said:

It really is very simple, as you say he either needs to use him right or stop using him. Playing him as Tuchel is at the moment is a complete waste of his time and ours and accomplishes nothing.

Harsh but true. We either sacrifice the player or sacrifice the team

5 hours ago, ducavis said:

You would have to question why he sanctioned a £100m buy that doesn’t fit in his system then. Lukaku is very flawed, we all know that. Seems Tuchel didn’t get the memo, or didn’t carry out a careful analysis before buying him.

He needs to stop digging him out for criticism publicly because it never helps. Seems he expects him to adapt to his system, but he isn’t that type of forward. To get the best out of him, he will need to adapt a system to his needs. Move the ball upfield quicker, and go a bit more direct. He isn’t a forward for possession football.

I have a better idea. How about we admit to ourselves we'd made a mistake and sell him while he still has any value. This way we don't have to worry about changing everyone and everything just to accomodate a very average player simply because he's too limited to play any other way. He's not a peak Ronaldo or Messi to justify such sacrifice, hell, he's not even Mbappe. This is not Serie A, we won't be winning titles with this donkey leading the line, so what's the point? To make ourselves much more predictable because this is the only system that suits him? This is madness.

6 hours ago, ducavis said:

You would have to question why he sanctioned a £100m buy that doesn’t fit in his system then. Lukaku is very flawed, we all know that. Seems Tuchel didn’t get the memo, or didn’t carry out a careful analysis before buying him.

He needs to stop digging him out for criticism publicly because it never helps. Seems he expects him to adapt to his system, but he isn’t that type of forward. To get the best out of him, he will need to adapt a system to his needs. Move the ball upfield quicker, and go a bit more direct. He isn’t a forward for possession football.

I agree to a point and have even said so, but also he set his own standards when he claimed himself he's on the level on the Suarez, Benzema, Kane and Lewandowski.

All of those four in their prime (three of them now actually let alone then) would have adapted to any system we've ever played and still churned out world class performances, the former of those dragged an utterly wretched Liverpool side managed by Brendan Rodgers to a slip away from the title and has shone in two polar opposite sides (from a style of play POV) in Spain.

17 hours ago, forbzy said:

I suspect that would be Tuchel's preference. But doubt the board will tolerate their 100m striker becoming a bench warmer.

 

15 hours ago, Argo said:

Maybe i'm being naive but i'd like to think if it led to us comfortably in top 4 and becoming serious contenders in the cups they'd let it slide.

 

15 hours ago, Dean said:

I agree - this idea the Lukaku has to play  because of the money spent on him may well be little more than a narrative invented by the fans. What’s the evidence? Roman’s moved on from many a shxt investment, in football and elsewhere, and isn’t one to fall victim to the sunk costs fallacy. Why would it be different this time? The idea that TT is going to lose his job if he doesn’t play Lukaku or if Lukaku doesn’t work out seems far-fetched. There are reasons why TT might (eventually will) be shown the door, but surely not this?

We all would hope that the board would put team above player. There is though a nagging doubt that it maybe not the board TT has to worry about. If like it was being reported back in the summer that Roman himself wanted the player, the scenario could change. It is reported he sent his son to help seal the deal, quite a feather in the cap of young Abramovic. Would this sway his mind? Who knows, remembering that the young heir could eventually be the owner.

https://ng.opera.news/ng/en/sports/71d7696dd8fd65c13c612061ec0901ed

Edited January 18, 20224 yr by charierre

2 minutes ago, charierre said:

 

 

We all would hope that the board would put team above player. There is though a nagging doubt that it maybe not the board TT has to worry about. If like it was being reported back in the summer that Roman himself wanted the player, the scenario could change. It is reported he sent his son to help seal the deal, quite a feather in the cap of young Abramovic. Would this sway his mind? Who knows, remembering that the young heir could eventually be the owner.

https://ng.opera.news/ng/en/sports/71d7696dd8fd65c13c612061ec0901ed

It may give him a bit of extra tax but even that will (hopefully) only go so far.

Roman hasn't got to where it he is today by being stubborn and sentimental, even his mate Sheva "only" got 18 months (he barely played after we signed Anelka) before being told enough is enough.

1 hour ago, charierre said:

 

 

We all would hope that the board would put team above player. There is though a nagging doubt that it maybe not the board TT has to worry about. If like it was being reported back in the summer that Roman himself wanted the player, the scenario could change. It is reported he sent his son to help seal the deal, quite a feather in the cap of young Abramovic. Would this sway his mind? Who knows, remembering that the young heir could eventually be the owner.

https://ng.opera.news/ng/en/sports/71d7696dd8fd65c13c612061ec0901ed

Yeah maybe something in it, but to Argo’s point I don’t think Roman really does sentimental. It’s not like the Godfather. Roman was himself an orphan, though I accept that could cut both ways (could make him MORE attached to family - I’m not a shrink so I don’t know). Anyway, my read is there’s a method to his ruthlessness and I’d be surprised if he allowed a situation to develop where a great manager is sacrificed on the altar of his son’s big deal.