52 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

According to 1 or 2 people that are the biggest Jorginho haters, yeap just like I said, take the L again and be gone...

What L? The love of your life is warming the bench at the end of his career and you're the biggest running joke on this forum. No one takes a single post you make seriously. Bore off. 

2 hours ago, Sheva said:

It's mad to me how we downplay Jorginho and Kovas contribution. They both won European cups with us and Jorginho even won the uefa player of the year award.

The current crop of players are absolutley no where near that standard right now, not even close.

We're currently 11th and last season they finished 12th and we were fighting on all fronts before we signed all these younger "talented" players. It doesn't matter if you think they are potentially better than them, right now they are no where near as good and there's a very good chance a few of them won't even reach that level.

Enzo has done f**k all in a Chelsea shirt compared to Jorginho.

 

 

We downplay it 'cos neither were more than decent squad players. How many games are either getting now for Arsenal & City?

What we are realising is much much we miss a PRIME Kante. He was World Class and you just can't replace a player like that (and Enzo and Caicedo have got noweher near to Kante levels).

 

1 minute ago, Nibs said:

What we are realising is much much we miss a PRIME Kante. He was World Class and you just can't replace a player like that (and Enzo and Caicedo have got noweher near to Kante levels).

While I do agree, I think even he would be a shadow of himself in this system.

Just now, Nibs said:

We downplay it 'cos neither were more than decent squad players. How many games are either getting now for Arsenal & City?

What we are realising is much much we miss a PRIME Kante. He was World Class and you just can't replace a player like that (and Enzo and Caicedo have got noweher near to Kante levels).

 

Personally I think we miss a prime Matic type more than a prime Kante.

8 minutes ago, Nibs said:

We downplay it 'cos neither were more than decent squad players. How many games are either getting now for Arsenal & City?

What we are realising is much much we miss a PRIME Kante. He was World Class and you just can't replace a player like that (and Enzo and Caicedo have got noweher near to Kante levels).

 

Kante was generally nowhere to be seen for his last 3-4 seasons at the club due to injuries. So the so called decent squad players were the ones who formed a competitive midfield that always got us into Top 4 and competed for the biggest trophies.
The guys we have now would have been lucky to get on the bench back when we actually had decent players and they prove it week in week out.

12 minutes ago, Nibs said:

We downplay it 'cos neither were more than decent squad players. How many games are either getting now for Arsenal & City?

What we are realising is much much we miss a PRIME Kante. He was World Class and you just can't replace a player like that (and Enzo and Caicedo have got noweher near to Kante levels).

 

RLC is playing a lot in AC Milan, doesn't change the fact that he was at best a decent squad player while he was here, while at the same time Jorginho and Kovacic were our key players and what they did best only a few in the league did at their level. So let's not get ahead of ourselves here, the fact that they ended up in Arsenal and Man City speaks for itself as both clubs have been better than us.

Enzo and Caicedo were labeled as world class talents prior to getting here, the absolute top we could sign. The fact that they need Gallagher in order to look good in a match is similar to how Kante looked so poor under Lampard at some point, that is worrying, not the talent level.

Edited February 26, 20242 yr by Gol15

15 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

Enzo and Caicedo were labeled as world class talents prior to getting here, the absolute top we could sign. The fact that they need Gallagher in order to look good in a match is similar to how Kante looked so poor under Lampard at some point, that is worrying, not the talent level.

I've come to the point where I dislike criticizing Gallagher because its genuinely not his fault we have a manager who seemingly built the team around him and made him undroppable. 

18 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

RLC is playing a lot in AC Milan, doesn't change the fact that he was at best a decent squad player while he was here, while at the same time Jorginho and Kovacic were our key players and what they did best only a few in the league did at their level. So let's not get ahead of ourselves here, the fact that they ended up in Arsenal and Man City speaks for itself as both clubs have been better than us.

Enzo and Caicedo were labeled as world class talents prior to getting here, the absolute top we could sign. The fact that they need Gallagher in order to look good in a match is similar to how Kante looked so poor under Lampard at some point, that is worrying, not the talent level.

Yes I think both City and Arsenal are better than us though don't think either Jorginho or Kovacic have made any difference as both are squad players rather than starters for us.

Havertz is the one we may regret not because he is great yet because he can score goals in big matches. 

11 minutes ago, Sconnie Blue said:

I've come to the point where I dislike criticizing Gallagher because its genuinely not his fault we have a manager who seemingly built the team around him and made him undroppable. 

It's not a criticism of Gallagher, I don't want you to misunderstand me it's about Enzo and Caicedo. Gallagher has been doing the job of 2 players at times and yet the two 100m signings can't make a stable partnership by themselves. 

38 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

RLC is playing a lot in AC Milan, doesn't change the fact that he was at best a decent squad player while he was here, while at the same time Jorginho and Kovacic were our key players and what they did best only a few in the league did at their level. So let's not get ahead of ourselves here, the fact that they ended up in Arsenal and Man City speaks for itself as both clubs have been better than us.

RLC was generally a bench option back then but would be a clear starter for us right now. Nevermind the ones who was ahead of him in the pecking order back when he was at the club.

People are delusional because they want to be.

Edited February 26, 20242 yr by OriginalS

23 minutes ago, OriginalS said:

RLC was generally a bench option back then but would be a clear starter for us right now. Nevermind the ones who was ahead of him in the pecking order back when he was at the club.

People are delusional because they want to be.

It's really odd how you can't explain how Enzo is an untouchable for the world cup winners.

3 minutes ago, Argo said:

It's really odd how you can't explain how Enzo is an untouchable for the world cup winners.

Argentines rate Enzo higher than f**king Riquelme. That is the affect he's had on them. He transformed their midfield and was arguably the X factor that removed a lot of responsibility from Messi. Rui Costa did everything possible to keep him at Benfica given how important he was for them. 

Brighton fans will tell you Caicedo was 2x the player MacAllister was for them last season. MacAllister has been unbeatable under Klopp and ran circles around Caicedo, whose looked half the player he was under De Zerbi. 

 

11 minutes ago, Argo said:

It's really odd how you can't explain how Enzo is an untouchable for the world cup winners.

Quick answer before I gotta go. I don't watch Argentina and I really only care about how he looks for us.

And i've never said he's a sh*t player. I guess this whole debate today started by me saying Kovacic-Jorginho would have done better for us in midfield this season than Caicedo-Enzo and I fully, fully believe that.
As a matter of fact we could have signed no one at all, kept Tuchel in charge and we would not be mid-table for two consecutive seasons. RLC, Jorgi, Kova, Mount, Werner etc would all have been better for us this season and last.

Edited February 26, 20242 yr by OriginalS

3 minutes ago, OriginalS said:

Quick answer before I gotta go. I don't watch Argentina and I really only care about how he looks for us.

And i've never said he's a sh*t player. I guess this whole debate today started by me saying Kovacic-Jorginho would have done better for us in midfield this season than Caicedo-Enzo and I fully, fully believe that.
As a matter of fact we could have signed no one at all, kept Tuchel in charge and we would not be mid-table for two consecutive seasons. RLC, Jorgi, Kova, Mount, Werner etc would all have been better for us this season and last.

There's they key difference, Jorginho and Kova were trained by an elite coach, the closest Enzo has had to that here was two months under Potter.

Under Lampard they were (mistakenly) branded mid or worse exactly what is happening to Enzo and Caicedo here. If (big if I know) Clearlake finally get a manager appointment right I bet they have "miracle" recoveries aswell.

1 hour ago, strider6004 said:

Yes I think both City and Arsenal are better than us though don't think either Jorginho or Kovacic have made any difference as both are squad players rather than starters for us.

Havertz is the one we may regret not because he is great yet because he can score goals in big matches. 

I agree, both are having smaller roles but still doing them and that's what's troubling me, on paper Enzo and Caicedo should be making one of the best CM partnerships in the league.

Their ceiling should be higher than of Jorginho&Kovacic duo and yet we're not seeing it.

2 hours ago, Gol15 said:

RLC is playing a lot in AC Milan, doesn't change the fact that he was at best a decent squad player while he was here, while at the same time Jorginho and Kovacic were our key players and what they did best only a few in the league did at their level. So let's not get ahead of ourselves here, the fact that they ended up in Arsenal and Man City speaks for itself as both clubs have been better than us.

Enzo and Caicedo were labeled as world class talents prior to getting here, the absolute top we could sign. The fact that they need Gallagher in order to look good in a match is similar to how Kante looked so poor under Lampard at some point, that is worrying, not the talent level.

Who labelled Enzo and Caicedo world class? Maybe only the deluded mugs in charge. World class is a very small amount of players who do it season after season.

When this is finished can we go over the old Jorginho is better than Rodri debate again? Or better still, Jorginho is better than Kante.

Ah, the good old days @OriginalS

2 hours ago, Argo said:

There's they key difference, Jorginho and Kova were trained by an elite coach, the closest Enzo has had to that here was two months under Potter.

Are you creating a definition there for Oxymoron? or was it sarcasm?

2 minutes ago, Modueke said:

Are you creating a definition there for Oxymoron? or was it sarcasm?

Out of the trainers Enzo has had that is the closest (not saying it was close).

Even beating Dortmund and outplaying Liverpool feels like lofty heights right now.

4 hours ago, Nibs said:

We downplay it 'cos neither were more than decent squad players. How many games are either getting now for Arsenal & City?

What we are realising is much much we miss a PRIME Kante. He was World Class and you just can't replace a player like that (and Enzo and Caicedo have got noweher near to Kante levels).

 

I think they were seen as decent because they never challenged domestically and what came before set such a high bar. Apart from a few players it also was not a very likelable bunch but they still consistently kept the club in the top 4 and won trophies. We can go on and on about Jorginho and how people don't rate him and it doesn't really matter what people think because during that time with us he won 3 major european trophies as a player so I doubt he's rattled by criticism. I'd happliy say the biggest reason why we won that champions league with Tuchel was Kante, without him we would have got anywhere near it but you can say that for many teams over the years. It takes a squad to win that trophy and during that run most of them showed up.

Great teams win titles, good teams finish top 4 and average teams finish mid table. We were a good team, not great but good.

The current crop have not maintained the levels of the club, we're average, lost and feeling the pressure of what come before them.

Edited February 26, 20242 yr by Sheva

2 hours ago, Ernie_blue said:

Who labelled Enzo and Caicedo world class? Maybe only the deluded mugs in charge. World class is a very small amount of players who do it season after season.

Wasn't it a general consensus that Caicedo was among the best central-defensive midfielders of the whole PL?

Enzo had an amazing World Cup and won the award as the best young player. This was why his price was so high, everybody saw him as a clear upgrade on Jorginho.

10 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

Wasn't it a general consensus that Caicedo was among the best central-defensive midfielders of the whole PL?

Enzo had an amazing World Cup and won the award as the best young player. This was why his price was so high, everybody saw him as a clear upgrade on Jorginho.

Enzo's price was so high because Benfica didn't want to sell him. 

Same as Caicedo/Brighton ... 

 

Transfermarkt "Market Valuations" aren't perfect but this is how they saw it :

 

Enzo: 

Caicedo: 

Edited February 26, 20242 yr by Sexyfootball

2 minutes ago, Sexyfootball said:

Enzo's price was so high because Benfica didn't want to sell him. 

Same as Caicedo/Brighton ... 

The only thing I'd be somewhat critical of here is we didn't have the foresight to scout him while at River Plate.

He was literally being coached by one of our ex players.

Just now, Argo said:

The only thing I'd be somewhat critical of here is we didn't have the foresight to scout him while at River Plate.

He was literally being coached by one of our ex players.

Yes, agreed