4 minutes ago, just said:

Personally I don't think lack of match fitness is a major problem. However, a lack of athleticism, strength and physicality particularly in midfield is. An example here.  Jorginho is match fit. But Strong, physical, athletic? 

Care and use of the ball. You quote triangular interplay between Silva and Kepa. And yet to be an attacking force where does the ball go from there? How does it get moved forwards? Surely a midfield presence, a link, a forward creative passer, a runner has to be crucial in that role. Did we have that today? I'd say no. If you think we did I'd like you to tell me where.

No, exactly. I think you are actually endorsing my point. There are many contrasting  opinions on this forum about Jorginho, but one thing surely everyone can agree upon is that Jorginho will always drop into the hole ahead of the defence to start moving us through the lines. Too often that didn't happen today. It would go Silva to Badiashile, back to Silva, back to Kepa and so on. On the few occasions when Jorginho did drop into the hole and pushed it out to Chalobah, it would invariably be passed back to Sila again.

Some of this undoubtedly is due to a lack of movement as well as a lack of confidence  in the players on the ball resulting in them playing safe. Notwithstanding this I still got the overriding impression that we were intentionally trying to draw the tempo out of the game. Historically I think this has been a reasonable tactic because its been a graveyard but today, God they were ripe for the taking.

1 hour ago, drjonesy1994 said:

No idea how anyone can view that performance today in a negative light. We didn’t dominate but if any team deserved to win it was us. 

Always a tough place to go regardless of injuries. We didn’t let them play how they’d like to play, and defensively we were excellent I thought, we didn’t ever really look in danger of conceding. 

Offensively we could have made better decisions, Havertz, Mount, Gallagher, Ziyech, Chucky all had decent scoring opportunities but wasted them. 

Overall feeling really encouraged by the performance and feels like it could be a turning point. If we can kick on from that I’d be really interested to see what the rest of the season looks like. 

Aye, we should have won.

3 hours ago, WhiteWall said:

I am starting to believe that Potter actually coaches out any attacking threat from these players.  They don't have a shot in them. It is not surprising that the two best players I have seen recently have been Felix and Mudryk, both of which have hardly trained with us.

Potter has always been like this though. His teams never score goals. That's why they were happy with a sh*t player like Danny Welbeck, cos he can't coach finishing anyway. 

I thought Mudryk looks quality, providing we don't ruin him. There are the faintest glimmers that some of these youngsters could look really good in the future. Not many players played poorly so that is a step in the right direction, but I did think we were so overly cautious. I doubt we will have a better chance to beat them up there for a few years to come now.

We haven't had a clinical attack since Costa left us, I'm not sure how its all been Potters fault since then!?  How do you 'coach out' an attacking threat?  Maybe if we had a couple of half decent strikers our 'attacking threat' would improve, I'm as much a Premier League striker as Havertz is.

3 hours ago, drjonesy1994 said:

No idea how anyone can view that performance today in a negative light. We didn’t dominate but if any team deserved to win it was us. 

Always a tough place to go regardless of injuries. We didn’t let them play how they’d like to play, and defensively we were excellent I thought, we didn’t ever really look in danger of conceding. 

Offensively we could have made better decisions, Havertz, Mount, Gallagher, Ziyech, Chucky all had decent scoring opportunities but wasted them. 

Overall feeling really encouraged by the performance and feels like it could be a turning point. If we can kick on from that I’d be really interested to see what the rest of the season looks like. 

There are posters on here that won't consider it a 'good performance' until we start beating Man City by 4 or 5 clear goals every time we play them, probably supporters that have only 'known' us since the turn of the century and have therefore built up unreasonable 'expectations'.  And until we thrash everybody we play they will continue harping on about 'sacking' Potter!

Today's performance was pretty good, I think we were the 'better' team, perhaps we should have won but a draw is a good result, it means we picked up one point more than Manchester City did when they went there - this season Liverpool's home record reads played 16, won 10, drawn 4, lost 2.

Edited January 22, 20233 yr by Droyman

2 hours ago, Droyman said:

There are posters on here that won't consider it a 'good performance' until we start beating Man City by 4 or 5 clear goals every time we play them, probably supporters that have only 'known' us since the turn of the century and have therefore built up unreasonable 'expectations'.  And until we thrash everybody we play they will continue harping on about 'sacking' Potter!

Today's performance was pretty good, I think we were the 'better' team, perhaps we should have won but a draw is a good result, it means we picked up one point more than Manchester City did when they went there - this season Liverpool's home record reads played 16, won 10, drawn 4, lost 2.

 My criticism is not that we didn’t win, but rather that we didn’t score. Not only can’t you win without scoring but you are in constant danger of losing to one good opposition attack or some stupid mistake. 

gallagher scored 8 pl goals last season, Auba scored goals last season,, Mount scored 11 premier league goals last season, but only 3 so far this time. Havertz scored 8  pl goals last season and with leverkusen a goal every second game. 

ziyech scored 4 pl goals last season and none this season and was prolific in the Erdiisie. 
 

you have to ask why are they all scoring less this season? Is it because we don’t have the wing backs to  drag defenders away, or is it just the lack of Kante? Or is it something todo with the manager?

 

As for unreasonable expectations, you are joking aren't you. What is a reasonable expectation for one of the most valuable football clubs in the world (no 8 according to Forbes) ? A club that has spent a gross US$ 500 m on players since the transfer to the Boehly consortium

I'll tell you what, it's not 10th in the premier league with just 22 goals scored after 20 games. 

No one reasonably expects us to win everything or even anything every season but it is reasonable to expect deep cup runs and in or at least close to top 4 in the league. indeed we want to have a shot at winning the league, that is the expectation for Chelsea and something I think is shared by management and supporters alike. 

It is an unreasonable expectation that anyone will look at the money spent and the quality of players and settle for mid table mediocrity. Brighton are having a fantastic season, but not one that would on average be good enough for Chelsea in today's world.

 

1 hour ago, ozboy said:

As for unreasonable expectations, you are joking aren't you. What is a reasonable expectation for one of the most valuable football clubs in the world (no 8 according to Forbes) ? A club that has spent a gross US$ 500 m on players since the transfer to the Boehly consortium

I'll tell you what, it's not 10th in the premier league with just 22 goals scored after 20 games. 

No one reasonably expects us to win everything or even anything every season but it is reasonable to expect deep cup runs and in or at least close to top 4 in the league. indeed we want to have a shot at winning the league, that is the expectation for Chelsea and something I think is shared by management and supporters alike. 

It is an unreasonable expectation that anyone will look at the money spent and the quality of players and settle for mid table mediocrity. Brighton are having a fantastic season, but not one that would on average be good enough for Chelsea in today's world.

 

You are right, somehow our standard has dropped so low, not losing is counted as a positive, and anything above that is unreasonable expectation. Even during Lampard's first season we had higher expectation that now, and that was a season with no transfer business. We used to laugh at Arsenal for celebrating the 4th spot trophy, we will have a 10th spot street party based on our recent standard and expectation.

From the official club site.
 

Edited January 22, 20233 yr by erskblue

Look, it was better. Still has a feel of two points dropped as Liverpool were awful for 70 odd minutes. Again the lack of a proven predator upfront killed us. Kai, god bless him for that goal, isn't a lone striker. He's not even a striker. I'm still trying to work out where he fits, and the longer it takes me the more inclined I am to just say he doesn't.... He makes Kerry Dixon look industrious (for those that remember), but unlike King Kerry he has no hope of a solid 20+ goals a season. Maybe time to move him back to Germany and cut our losses. He'd still command some kind of fee as a young German international, money which we could spend on a proper poacher. I'm seriously still wondering how water tight Toney's contract is. Worth testing. Anyway Muddy looked the business and am looking forward to seeing more, has a bit of Eden about him. Ziyech played pretty well too, but Silva remains PL royalty. What a player! Can we not spend the next 100mil on a cloning machine Todd? TTFN.

 

 

Edited January 22, 20233 yr by ChumpX

7 hours ago, Droyman said:

We haven't had a clinical attack since Costa left us, I'm not sure how its all been Potters fault since then!?  How do you 'coach out' an attacking threat?  Maybe if we had a couple of half decent strikers our 'attacking threat' would improve, I'm as much a Premier League striker as Havertz is.

This I kind of agree with as well, which I concede isn't only down to Potter, it's this possession for possession sake football that we have developed over the years. The coaching out a goal threat was a light hearted comment but based upon the premise that we seem to focus our efforts so much in retaining possession and recycling the ball that nobody seems to have the stones to attack the goal and the finishing, which as you say has been woeful for some time, seems to have got worse. We just don't ever seem to shoot.

Hopefully Mudryk will have a bit more of a direct threat and will shoot more.

18 hours ago, PloKoon13 said:

Well done Badiashile

MOTM for me !!

Like watching paint dry. From both teams. I suppose the positive is that we were the gloss and they were the undercoat but still. Thiago Silva has a painting of himself in his attic. When he came here we were worried that he could start every other game. Now he's first name on the teamsheet every game and he's applied to change his name to Benjamin Button. Midfield was better, although it was probably more down to the opposition being rubbish, and our plethora of wingers should ensure, should we ever sign a striker, that the goals will come sooner or later.

In short, yesterdays game was a "better" performance, 1. We didn't lose, 2. we looked decent at the back and 3. Both Badiashille and Mudryk look to be made for the Premier League. But, as has been mentioned elsewhere, without goals, you cannot win games and we are sadly and massively lacking in that department. Looking at the £millions we have spent on players since Boehly came in, we have bought wingers galore, defenders and attacking midfielders, but seriously, how is it that nobody at the Club has told Boehly that GOALS WIN GAMES and that our primary weakness is a lack of them ??? Until we get a predatory six yard box finisher, not much will change and my much mentioned CM with real leadership skills, strength and a pair of bollocks, is still nowhere to be seen, despite the huge number of new arrivals. 

Don't expect things to change too much too soon my friends.

1 hour ago, ChumpX said:

He makes Kerry Dixon look industrious (for those that remember),

😂 that did make me laugh, he had a 4 x 4 space on the pitch he barely ever left.

12 hours ago, WhiteWall said:

I am starting to believe that Potter actually coaches out any attacking threat from these players.  They don't have a shot in them. It is not surprising that the two best players I have seen recently have been Felix and Mudryk, both of which have hardly trained with us.

Potter has always been like this though. His teams never score goals. That's why they were happy with a sh*t player like Danny Welbeck, cos he can't coach finishing anyway. 

I thought Mudryk looks quality, providing we don't ruin him. There are the faintest glimmers that some of these youngsters could look really good in the future. Not many players played poorly so that is a step in the right direction, but I did think we were so overly cautious. I doubt we will have a better chance to beat them up there for a few years to come now.

Been going on for years well before Potter.. Lampard said as much years ago, we want to take too many touches instead of shooting in game v Everton the start of his downfall.. 

In fact I sit MHL behind the bit where players practice hammering the ball into the goal and everyone around me wonders why we bother as we won't take a shot from 20 yards + during the game.!

Just been watching the game again on BT Sport. On a number of occasions the scouse tried to isolate Silva on a one v one late in the game. Fair play to Thiago Silva on no occasion was he out ran. They made a point in commentary about how with his experience he shepherded players out of dangers way, but actually he kept up even in the foot race. 38. Fantastic player and role model

5 hours ago, ozboy said:

As for unreasonable expectations, you are joking aren't you. What is a reasonable expectation for one of the most valuable football clubs in the world (no 8 according to Forbes) ? A club that has spent a gross US$ 500 m on players since the transfer to the Boehly consortium

I'll tell you what, it's not 10th in the premier league with just 22 goals scored after 20 games. 

No one reasonably expects us to win everything or even anything every season but it is reasonable to expect deep cup runs and in or at least close to top 4 in the league. indeed we want to have a shot at winning the league, that is the expectation for Chelsea and something I think is shared by management and supporters alike. 

It is an unreasonable expectation that anyone will look at the money spent and the quality of players and settle for mid table mediocrity. Brighton are having a fantastic season, but not one that would on average be good enough for Chelsea in today's world.

 

How about taking into account the fact that the manager has only managed 20 games?  The fact that we've had bans twice in two seasons and when we have bought players we've wasted hundreds of millions on dross like Lukaku or Werner etc?  Or the fact that the whole club is under new ownership?  Or more than anything the fact that we have the worst injury crisis in the history of football?  11 players on crutches!

Perhaps we should reserve judgement until the new management, coach, players have actually had a bit of time?  Liverpool have LESS injuries than we do yet they are suffering in exactly the same way we are................and their manager has had years of experience at the club!

46 minutes ago, Droyman said:

How about taking into account the fact that the manager has only managed 20 games?  The fact that we've had bans twice in two seasons and when we have bought players we've wasted hundreds of millions on dross like Lukaku or Werner etc?  Or the fact that the whole club is under new ownership?  Or more than anything the fact that we have the worst injury crisis in the history of football?  11 players on crutches!

Perhaps we should reserve judgement until the new management, coach, players have actually had a bit of time?  Liverpool have LESS injuries than we do yet they are suffering in exactly the same way we are................and their manager has had years of experience at the club!

Yes that's fair enough although in fact historically at chelsea you didn't get long and the same for many other clubs. Yet fair enough. But the point remains standards are very high.  20 games is really quite a long time,  longer than Tuchel got once the team started under performing. And he got results straight away. So yes 20 games is not long enough, but that "excuse" will wear thin shortly. 

How many games do you need to work out how to start scoring goals? I am not anti Potter at all. But I don't see why the standard for him should be different than for other managers. All that said I do accept that a manager who wants to build a team that will compete for years at the highest level has to build a strong foundation.

And as regards Klopp history shows that managers generally exhaust their welcome after a while. For whatever reason a team tends to peak under a manager's performance, especially one as good as Klopp, and then fade away. A better comparison for Potter would be Arteta, or if you want to dredge up history you can go back to Fergie's start at ManU. In the end its a matter of judgement that looks at the performance and the change in performance as well as the ladder position.

Edited January 22, 20233 yr by ozboy

All you 'sack Potter now' zealots, are any of you old enough to remember 1993/94?  Let me tell you what I remember.  

In 1992/93 we had finished 11th - dull, long ball football, attendances at an all time top flight low, club not exactly 'flush' with funds.  At the start of 93/94 a new manager is in place, a man called Glenn Hoddle.  This manager is not the kind of guy that advocates dull, long ball football, he wants the game played the 'right way', pass and move, control of the football, he wants 'attractive football', football to bring the supporters back through the turnstiles.  Fast forward to 28th December 1993, there we are, in the relegation places, we have won THREE league games ALL SEASON, we have lost EIGHT of our last ten, drawing the other two, me and a friend get a couple of tickets that day to watch us play Newcastle United - a club challenging for the title (they finished 3rd that season).  The 'atmosphere' at the Bridge has been getting 'toxic', Hoddle out NOW is what a percentage of Chelsea fans are demanding (a smaller percentage than those that want to give him a chance), game kicks off and Newcastle start threatening straight away, HOWEVER there is something 'different' about this Chelsea team, despite being under the cosh for long periods they are breaking with some beautiful moves, they're no longer hoofing it forward towards the 'big man' (not that we had one at the time it was Peacock and Stein!), suddenly a beautiful move forward and we go one up! In fact we hang on for our first league win since SEPTEMBER.  From that moment on we start to improve, we're unbeaten in the next 5 (winning 4).  

At the end of the season we finish 14th three places LOWER that the previous year BUT there is something different, a team that plays attractive football, we start to see the attendances increase, we start 'attracting' the TV camera's, we start getting more cash and better players.  These are our finishing places and average attendances in the following years:-

94/95 - 11th - 21,063

95/96 - 11th - 25,590

96/97 - 6th - 27,512

97/98 - 4th - 32,901

98/99 - 3rd - 34,748

The rest is as they say history,  it was a revolution at the club, Hoddle didn't immediately improve things.......in fact results got worse, before getting better, however after a couple of seasons he had a very poor team playing competitive AND attractive football that completely changed the direction of our club.

Can you imagine what would have happened if Bates bowed to the pressure and sacked him when things were going badly (a lot worse than things have been under Potter)?

I feel fairly sure we would NOT have two Champions League trophies in the cabinet right now!

All you Potter haters think on.

 

Edited January 22, 20233 yr by Droyman

23 minutes ago, ozboy said:

Yes that's fair enough although in fact historically at chelsea you didn't get long and the same for many other clubs. Yet fair enough. But the point remains standards are very high.  20 games is really quite a long time,  longer than Tuchel got once the team started under performing. And he got results straight away. So yes 20 games is not long enough, but that "excuse" will wear thin shortly. 

How many games do you need to work out how to start scoring goals? I am not anti Potter at all. But I don't see why the standard for him should be different than for other managers. All that said I do accept that a manager who wants to build a team that will compete for years at the highest level has to build a strong foundation.

And as regards Klopp history shows that managers generally exhaust their welcome after a while. For whatever reason a team tends to peak under a manager's performance, especially one as good as Klopp, and then fade away. A better comparison for Potter would be Arteta, or if you want to dredge up history you can go back to Fergie's start at ManU. In the end its a matter of judgement that looks at the performance and the change in performance as well as the ladder position.

You are quite correct it is longer than Tuchel got once the team started to 'underperform' but I think most of us are in agreement that Tuchel should have been given time also! 

Edited January 22, 20233 yr by Droyman

2 hours ago, Droyman said:

All you 'sack Potter now' zealots, are any of you old enough to remember 1993/94?  Let me tell you what I remember.  

In 1992/93 we had finished 11th - dull, long ball football, attendances at an all time top flight low, club not exactly 'flush' with funds.  At the start of 93/94 a new manager is in place, a man called Glenn Hoddle.  This manager is not the kind of guy that advocates dull, long ball football, he wants the game played the 'right way', pass and move, control of the football, he wants 'attractive football', football to bring the supporters back through the turnstiles.  Fast forward to 28th December 1993, there we are, in the relegation places, we have won THREE league games ALL SEASON, we have lost EIGHT of our last ten, drawing the other two, me and a friend get a couple of tickets that day to watch us play Newcastle United - a club challenging for the title (they finished 3rd that season).  The 'atmosphere' at the Bridge has been getting 'toxic', Hoddle out NOW is what a percentage of Chelsea fans are demanding (a smaller percentage than those that want to give him a chance), game kicks off and Newcastle start threatening straight away, HOWEVER there is something 'different' about this Chelsea team, despite being under the cosh for long periods they are breaking with some beautiful moves, they're no longer hoofing it forward towards the 'big man' (not that we had one at the time it was Peacock and Stein!), suddenly a beautiful move forward and we go one up! In fact we hang on for our first league win since SEPTEMBER.  From that moment on we start to improve, we're unbeaten in the next 5 (winning 4).  

At the end of the season we finish 14th three places LOWER that the previous year BUT there is something different, a team that plays attractive football, we start to see the attendances increase, we start 'attracting' the TV camera's, we start getting more cash and better players.  These are our finishing places and average attendances in the following years:-

94/95 - 11th - 21,063

95/96 - 11th - 25,590

96/97 - 6th - 27,512

97/98 - 4th - 32,901

98/99 - 3rd - 34,748

The rest is as they say history,  it was a revolution at the club, Hoddle didn't immediately improve things.......in fact results got worse, before getting better, however after a couple of seasons he had a very poor team playing competitive AND attractive football that completely changed the direction of our club.

Can you imagine what would have happened if Bates bowed to the pressure and sacked him when things were going badly (a lot worse than things have been under Potter)?

I feel fairly sure we would NOT have two Champions League trophies in the cabinet right now!

All you Potter haters think on.

 

Spot on mate .Thanks for your post

There was a "Neal out" banner at the Bridge years before that, Bates stuck with him and John Neal turned it around too..

As we started to improve under Hoddle then after he left, I was telling everyone to get back down the Bridge to watch and support us again because the football was great .

I even wrote to Batesy to thank him for some of the best football in decades !

Felt like a much improved performance yesterday, a real step in the right direction. A nice gap before the next match and so I expect to see even more improvements for fulham.

Mudryk looks like he's going to be some player!

1JT

14 hours ago, ozboy said:

 My criticism is not that we didn’t win, but rather that we didn’t score. Not only can’t you win without scoring but you are in constant danger of losing to one good opposition attack or some stupid mistake. 

gallagher scored 8 pl goals last season, Auba scored goals last season,, Mount scored 11 premier league goals last season, but only 3 so far this time. Havertz scored 8  pl goals last season and with leverkusen a goal every second game. 

ziyech scored 4 pl goals last season and none this season and was prolific in the Erdiisie. 
 

you have to ask why are they all scoring less this season? Is it because we don’t have the wing backs to  drag defenders away, or is it just the lack of Kante? Or is it something todo with the manager?

 

Not counting Newcastle yet, nor Spurs ever, but our record for goals is horrible once again against the top sides for this season:

Chelsea 0-1 Arsenal

Chelsea 1-1 United (penalty)

Chelsea 0-1 City

Liverpool 0-0 Chelsea

 

4 games, 3 at home, and one penalty goal to show for it. This is simply not good enough.