It's nice to find stats to back up what your eyes tell you. 

Assuming these numbers are correct as far as positions go via transfermarkt.com, Willian would be so much more effective at the LCM position. 1 Goal would be an upgrade on Kovacic. He's praised for his defensive work, and brings his link up play is good.

He's got more goals in the midfield in about half the appearances.

Willian obviously has talent, technically and athletically, but he's a black hole playing on the wing, and it's hurting the team. 

Sarri isn't going to switch the system, and frankly I don't blame him. The players aren't playing the system. They're playing, "get the ball wide and watch a winger take on 5 players"

But Rotating Willian to LCM, with a front 3 of Hazard, Higuain, CHO, and now I'm interested.

Played as	APP	G	A
Right Winger	122	14	19
Attacking Midfield	92	27	19
Left Winger	30	6	6
Second Striker	5	-	-
Right Midfield	4	1	-

13 minutes ago, Skinnedy said:

It's nice to find stats to back up what your eyes tell you. 

Assuming these numbers are correct as far as positions go via transfermarkt.com, Willian would be so much more effective at the LCM position. 1 Goal would be an upgrade on Kovacic. He's praised for his defensive work, and brings his link up play is good.

He's got more goals in the midfield in about half the appearances.

Willian obviously has talent, technically and athletically, but he's a black hole playing on the wing, and it's hurting the team. 

Sarri isn't going to switch the system, and frankly I don't blame him. The players aren't playing the system. They're playing, "get the ball wide and watch a winger take on 5 players"

But Rotating Willian to LCM, with a front 3 of Hazard, Higuain, CHO, and now I'm interested.

Played as	APP	G	A
Right Winger	122	14	19
Attacking Midfield	92	27	19
Left Winger	30	6	6
Second Striker	5	-	-
Right Midfield	4	1	-

Not sure why you've liked this @yorkleyblue as it is insinuating Willian has played the bulk of his game as a winger???? I didn't think Willian played as a winger in his career. 

18 minutes ago, Skinnedy said:

It's nice to find stats to back up what your eyes tell you. 

Assuming these numbers are correct as far as positions go via transfermarkt.com, Willian would be so much more effective at the LCM position. 1 Goal would be an upgrade on Kovacic. He's praised for his defensive work, and brings his link up play is good.

He's got more goals in the midfield in about half the appearances.

Willian obviously has talent, technically and athletically, but he's a black hole playing on the wing, and it's hurting the team. 

Sarri isn't going to switch the system, and frankly I don't blame him. The players aren't playing the system. They're playing, "get the ball wide and watch a winger take on 5 players"

But Rotating Willian to LCM, with a front 3 of Hazard, Higuain, CHO, and now I'm interested.

Played as	APP	G	A
Right Winger	122	14	19
Attacking Midfield	92	27	19
Left Winger	30	6	6
Second Striker	5	-	-
Right Midfield	4	1	-

I think he could be an option in that left centre midfield role but I would take those stats with a pinch of salt, since most of his attacking midfielder appearances came in the Ukrainian and Russian league, so obviously the standard is much lower, and since nearly half of his goals for us 19/51 came against teams in the lower leagues, maybe his stats are better because of the standard of opposition, as opposed to the position he was playing centrally.

 

edit. are those figures from transfermarkt.com? If so, I'm not sure how accurate they since they say Willian played as an attacking centre midfielder u see conte in the title win, when for large parts of the season we played 343.

Edited February 1, 20197 yr by big blue

2 minutes ago, RIP Mourinho said:

Not sure why you've liked this @yorkleyblue as it is insinuating Willian has played the bulk of his game as a winger???? I didn't think Willian played as a winger in his career. 

If I was a Willian fan, I might say he has selflessly played out of position for years without grumbling about it for the betterment of the team. 

If I wasn't a Willian fan, I might say that we're better off playing with 10 than having him play right wing, clogging the attack, blocking other talented wide players, while slagging off a manager who got the best of him. 

It's all a matter of perpective 

8 minutes ago, RIP Mourinho said:

Not sure why you've liked this @yorkleyblue as it is insinuating Willian has played the bulk of his game as a winger???? I didn't think Willian played as a winger in his career. 

I liked it because it reinforces my oft-stated position that Willian is not and never has been a main goal-scorer, so for people to whine on about him not scoring 20 a season here is just facile and ignorant.  That's why.

4 minutes ago, big blue said:

but I would take those stats with a pinch of salt, since most of his attacking midfielder appearances came in the Ukrainian and Russian league,

you're not dealing with an amateur here 

Those are his Chelsea numbers...

His EPL numbers make my point even more clearly. Nice production out of Midfield... and "You've got to be kidding me" as a Winger...

Played as	APP	G	A
Right Winger	91	6	15
Attacking Midfield	62	17	11
Left Winger	14	2	3
Second Striker	5	-	-
Right Midfield	4	1

29 minutes ago, yorkleyblue said:

I liked it because it reinforces my oft-stated position that Willian is not and never has been a main goal-scorer, so for people to whine on about him not scoring 20 a season here is just facile and ignorant.  That's why.

Still waiting for you to point out another top team that plays a winger that can track back and not contribute in attack.

Even if that is his role, he's even more redundant now under Sarri than he was previous managers. Sarri has always had wingers that contribute in attack and press high up. Willian does neither. Not good enough for Sarrismo. 

All right, I put it in writing... I'm as much to blame as anyone. I've wanted him sold for the last 3 seasons because of his lack of production... but he didn't have a natural position under Conte in the 5-2-3 title winning season, and last year was about trying to get Bakayoko and Cesc on the field. Willian would have been better off playing one of the Midfield three in last seasons 5-3-2 as he and Pedro found themselves frozen out a lot of the time.

https://mavenfc.io/chelsea/news/is-it-time-for-chelsea-fans-to-cut-willian-some-slack-00LTeBTLjE23faiAoxzKyQ/

17 minutes ago, RIP Mourinho said:

Still waiting for you to point out another top team that plays a winger that can track back and not contribute in attack.

Even if that is his role, he's even more redundant now under Sarri than he was previous managers. Sarri has always had wingers that contribute in attack and press high up. Willian does neither. Not good enough for Sarrismo. 

You keep on about him being a winger.  Try this

https://www.skysports.com/willian

and specifically this bit

Player Details

Name: Willian

Date of birth:09/08/1988

Place of birth: Brazil

Height: 1.74m

Club: Chelsea

Squad: 22

Position: Attacking Midfielder

(I  bolded the important bit!)

I've never said (I think) that he is ideal for us and the way that Sarri wants us to play, though I do think he presses better than most in the team.   

My gripe has always been prats in here wittering on about his "lack of end product, goals and assists" when that is not his main role or function.   In my mind,  any Willian goals are an added bonus to what he brings to transition from defence to attack. 

I'll grant you that once he gets up front he, as well as Hazard, slow the attack down a lot and that causes us problems, but I'm not sure how many more times or ways I can say this, Willian is an attacking midfielder, his main role is supporting the attack, not being the main goal scorer and because some people have taken against the lad for whatever weird reason they have, they refuse to see any good at all , and are always looking for a slip or mistake to rant about, in a way that isn't applied to most of the team, and which makes me think that a lot of people are more concerned with spotting a Willian mistake and posting "OH, Willian FFS!" than they are with actually watching the match.

That website also says Hazard is an attacking mid, yet he's played on the wing or as a striker even. I'd take a website taking the position he's played each game over a simple player profile. Even as an attacking mid as his profile says, Hazard's output is probably 3x that of Willian (educated guess off the top of my head, cba to check) so there's no excuse there for his below average output.

If Willian was playing a central attacking mid role i'd have a lot less issues with him. Dare i even say i might like him, but there's no way he should be a winger at this club.

3 minutes ago, RIP Mourinho said:

Dare i even say i might like him

Can someone go downstairs and check hell hasn't frozen over.

2 hours ago, Skinnedy said:

It's nice to find stats to back up what your eyes tell you. 

Assuming these numbers are correct as far as positions go via transfermarkt.com, Willian would be so much more effective at the LCM position. 1 Goal would be an upgrade on Kovacic. He's praised for his defensive work, and brings his link up play is good.

He's got more goals in the midfield in about half the appearances.

Willian obviously has talent, technically and athletically, but he's a black hole playing on the wing, and it's hurting the team. 

Sarri isn't going to switch the system, and frankly I don't blame him. The players aren't playing the system. They're playing, "get the ball wide and watch a winger take on 5 players"

But Rotating Willian to LCM, with a front 3 of Hazard, Higuain, CHO, and now I'm interested.

Played as	APP	G	A
Right Winger	122	14	19
Attacking Midfield	92	27	19
Left Winger	30	6	6
Second Striker	5	-	-
Right Midfield	4	1	-

Nice theory but falls apart once you remember that Jose (or was it Conte?) already experimented with Willian in a center mid role and it was a spectacular failure. 

Different manages and tactics I know but I don't want to witness it again. 

28 minutes ago, RIP Mourinho said:

That website also says Hazard is an attacking mid, yet he's played on the wing or as a striker even. I'd take a website taking the position he's played each game over a simple player profile. Even as an attacking mid as his profile says, Hazard's output is probably 3x that of Willian (educated guess off the top of my head, cba to check) so there's no excuse there for his below average output.

If Willian was playing a central attacking mid role i'd have a lot less issues with him. Dare i even say i might like him, but there's no way he should be a winger at this club.

Are you comparing Willian with Hazard?  Apples and Cheese,  mate.

I'd be happy with Willian playing left/right/central midfield, his "end product" would be the same, but we wouldn't have to put up  with the constant scapegoating in here every match. (No,  I couldn't keep a straight face as I typed that, of course we'd have the same old boring whines from the same old boring whiners)

38 minutes ago, Remodez said:

Nice theory but falls apart once you remember that Jose (or was it Conte?) already experimented with Willian in a center mid role and it was a spectacular failure. 

Different manages and tactics I know but I don't want to witness it again. 

The numbers disagree. (Conte never played Willian as a midfielder) 

But this would be LM in this case. LCM, but it's definitely left sided. How much worse do you think he'd do than Kovacic? 

 

14 minutes ago, Skinnedy said:

The numbers disagree. (Conte never played Willian as a midfielder) 

But this would be LM in this case. LCM, but it's definitely left sided. How much worse do you think he'd do than Kovacic? 

 

I would prefer we just go 4-2-3-1, and play Willian as a no.10, I think it might be his best role.  Rotate Kovacic with Jorginho.  Willian as a no.10, Hazard and CHO/Pedro on the wings, would be much more devastating than anything we've put out there so far this season.

Edit: I realize that Sarri has said he won't do this, but we can dream eh?

Edited February 1, 20197 yr by mwblue10

1 hour ago, coco said:

Can someone go downstairs and check hell hasn't frozen over.

 

1 minute ago, just said:

 

LOL. I think that is a real place in Michigan funnily enough. It got in the news this week since it really did freeze over with the polar vortex. Although most of the upper Midwest has arguably felt like hell these last few days. Thankfully it is above 0F for the first time in a while today :)

I think this site maybe concludes the argument, of course it could be as dodgy as the rest?

https://www.chelseafc.com/en/teams/first-team

53 minutes ago, mwblue10 said:

I would prefer we just go 4-2-3-1, and play Willian as a no.10, I think it might be his best role.  Rotate Kovacic with Jorginho.  Willian as a no.10, Hazard and CHO/Pedro on the wings, would be much more devastating than anything we've put out there so far this season.

Edit: I realize that Sarri has said he won't do this, but we can dream eh?

Yeah, I've seen Willian play a more central role for Brazil and look really good. But like you, I've been trying to stick in the realm of remotely possible, not impossible. Sarri isn't going to change the formation until the player start executing it.

My problem with Sarri isn't the formation, it's the man management of continuing to select the same players for the same spots without motivating them with competition.

1 hour ago, Skinnedy said:

Yeah, I've seen Willian play a more central role for Brazil and look really good. But like you, I've been trying to stick in the realm of remotely possible, not impossible. Sarri isn't going to change the formation until the player start executing it.

My problem with Sarri isn't the formation, it's the man management of continuing to select the same players for the same spots without motivating them with competition.

You read my mind, I was thinking of how he has played centrally for the national team.

1 hour ago, mwblue10 said:

You read my mind, I was thinking of how he has played centrally for the national team.

Willian to start instead of Kova for a game or 2. That would be interesting to see.

On 01/02/2019 at 11:31, RIP Mourinho said:

I grew up under a labour government and was educated within one so i don't really understand what point you're trying to make with that comment.

My point is made perfectly and succinctly by yours.  You "grew up under a labour government and was educated within one", so, by definition, you were educated in the apocalyptic mess that was, and is, the results of several years of Tory vindictive and deliberate destruction of what was an education system that was the envy of the world.  I despise Blair with the same disdain I hold for Spuds and Scousers, but he did try, unsuccessfully,  to repair the damage.  If you were in education under Labour government, then the damage had already been done.

That's the point I'm trying to make, and the fact that you don't comprehend that is proof positive of that point.

Moving on....

I've got 10-1 that says the source of the Willian rumors was his agent. Wants a 3 year contract. 

https://www.dailystar.co.uk/sport/football/757468/Chelsea-Willian-contract-trouble-news

 

 

On 01/02/2019 at 21:08, forbzy said:

Willian to start instead of Kova for a game or 2. That would be interesting to see.

I came here to suggest that. It could be a genius move. Even though he doesn’t score much, he’s still more of a goal threat than Barkley or Kova.

He could take the Hamsik role? I’m surprised Sarri hasn’t tried it yet. If we can manage with Willian, Pedro and Hazard as the only wingers for most of the season then I’m sure we will manage with Hazard, Pedro and CHO.