I think too many people judge a player's entire contribution to a match on what the Sky/BT match director chooses to show us, and, as @just said, the view of the player on the ball in the middle of the pitch is vastly different to the view we get from above and in wide-screen.

A forward player making any number of runs into space are of no benefit at all if the man on the ball is fronted up by a row of three or four opponents blocking his view.  Also, a player in the centre of the field might see the run, but then has to judge whether their advanced teammate might or might not be offside, a defender might or might not be in a position to step across, the next-step game plan in their mind might be to pass/advance down the wings or any number of other variables that go through the mind every millisecond.

Honestly, I sometimes think that some of you have never actually played the game.  But I'm sure someone can provide a load of stats and youtubes to show me the error of my opinion.

13 minutes ago, dkw said:

So play someone else then, give Gilmour a run out, move mount back into midfield and put CHO on the pitch. He had options and chose the wrong one in my opinion.

Gilmour would have faced all the issues Jorginho did and in my opinion Mount is not particularly suited to a midfield two. As an 8, absolutely.

Tuchel had to make a tough decision. Hopefully it will all be worth it after tomorrow evening.
We would probably have beat Leeds with Kovacic in the side but all things considered Atletico is the bigger game at this point.

 

2 minutes ago, Sindre said:

Gilmour would have faced all the issues Jorginho did and in my opinion Mount is not particularly suited to a midfield two. As an 8, absolutely.

Tuchel had to make a tough decision. Hopefully it will all be worth it after tomorrow evening.
We would probably have beat Leeds with Kovacic in the side but all things considered Atletico is the bigger game at this point.

 

It was LEEDS!

3 minutes ago, yorkleyblue said:

I think too many people judge a player's entire contribution to a match on what the Sky/BT match director chooses to show us, and, as @just said, the view of the player on the ball in the middle of the pitch is vastly different to the view we get from above and in wide-screen.

A forward player making any number of runs into space are of no benefit at all if the man on the ball is fronted up by a row of three or four opponents blocking his view.  Also, a player in the centre of the field might see the run, but then has to judge whether their advanced teammate might or might not be offside, a defender might or might not be in a position to step across, the next-step game plan in their mind might be to pass/advance down the wings or any number of other variables that go through the mind every millisecond.

Honestly, I sometimes think that some of you have never actually played the game.  But I'm sure someone can provide a load of stats and youtubes to show me the error of my opinion.

Its always amusing when Sky use a high camera angle to show a run and wonder why someone didnt pass to him, totally ignoring the fact the players on the pitch had 4 players between him and the run and it was almost impossible for him to see it. Like you say, the overhead cameras do the players no favours in that situation, he cant see through players, and until they have some kind of live feed from the sky cameras beamed into their heads they arent ever going to see the same thing the cameras do. 

5 minutes ago, Sindre said:

Gilmour would have faced all the issues Jorginho did and in my opinion Mount is not particularly suited to a midfield two. As an 8, absolutely.

Tuchel had to make a tough decision. Hopefully it will all be worth it after tomorrow evening.
We would probably have beat Leeds with Kovacic in the side but all things considered Atletico is the bigger game at this point.

 

Gilmour has proven already he can handle a press, he did it against possibly the best team at it last season. Mount is a midfielder though, he can play anywhere through the middle of the team, and I`m certain he would have done better than Jorginho who had absolutely 0 effect on the game, as expected.

45 minutes ago, dkw said:

I said last week that Joginho should not play against sides like Leeds who have a high energy pressing game for pretty much the full 90 minutes, they train to be fitter than the opposition so they can do it. He just cant handle that kind of game, Tuchel ballsed it up by picking him and then expecting Kante to basically play both roles in the midfield. Kovacic in that midfield against Leeds beats their press with his skill on the ball, close control etc. Its just a shame he would probably then just do little with it once hes in the clear.

This is very key to our present woes. The three current players occupying the midfield two are not able to deliver the killer ball or add to our goals tally. 

46 minutes ago, charierre said:

This is very key to our present woes. The three current players occupying the midfield two are not able to deliver the killer ball or add to our goals tally. 

It is very2 rare for double pivot to have good assist and goals number. You can just check Thiago number last year for Bayern, it is relatively similar to kova. 

This is not the reason why we can't score. It is combination of out of form attacker, wrong player combination and style football that Tuchel want to play. 

Why people are expecting Kante, the most destructive footballer on the planet breaking up and stopping play, to suddenly be Zola in the final third? Makalele had trouble scoring penalties let alone picking a pass around the box. It wasnt his game, nor is it Kante's. I just want him to win it and give it. 

Jorginho and Kovacic alongside Kante is uncreative and doesnt carry enough goal threat I think we struggle to create with two of those three on the pitch let alone all three. Which Is why like Mount. He's a foil to any of those players and can pick a pass or shoot for goal, not that he does that enough for me at the moment, just have to find a player in our squad who can compliment one of the three plus mount. Was hoping it would have been Havertz, I'd be happy to see Gilmour being given a run of games but we're at the business end of the season so probably wont happen. 

I just would like to see more creativity. Then reckon goals will come. even for Kante. 

 

Jeez. What will it take to end this persistent misdiagnosis of our failure to score goals being the responsibility of our midfield? Leaving aside the fact that it’s utter nonsense that our midfielders  lack the ability to deliver a killer pass (Kovacic did one last time he started, but this myth just refuses to die), ask yourselves this: what if our attackers WERE scoring more? What if Werner had been more clinical and we’d won 5-0 against Everton? Would we still be talking about how our midfielders need to score more?

1 hour ago, Dointhejtdouble said:

Why people are expecting Kante, the most destructive footballer on the planet breaking up and stopping play, to suddenly be Zola in the final third? Makalele had trouble scoring penalties let alone picking a pass around the box. It wasnt his game, nor is it Kante's. I just want him to win it and give it. 

Jorginho and Kovacic alongside Kante is uncreative and doesnt carry enough goal threat I think we struggle to create with two of those three on the pitch let alone all three. Which Is why like Mount. He's a foil to any of those players and can pick a pass or shoot for goal, not that he does that enough for me at the moment, just have to find a player in our squad who can compliment one of the three plus mount. Was hoping it would have been Havertz, I'd be happy to see Gilmour being given a run of games but we're at the business end of the season so probably wont happen. 

I just would like to see more creativity. Then reckon goals will come. even for Kante. 

 

I think people don't expect him to turn into Zola.  As many have said, his role against Leeds of being the progressive midfielder tasked with carrying the ball forward didn't suit his skillset. But that is the role he had on Saturday and the role he should be evaluated on. 7 progressive forward passes (which was  the stat that someone on here gave) across 93 mins, simply isn't good enough. 

51 minutes ago, Dean said:

Jeez. What will it take to end this persistent misdiagnosis of our failure to score goals being the responsibility of our midfield? Leaving aside the fact that it’s utter nonsense that our midfielders  lack the ability to deliver a killer pass (Kovacic did one last time he started, but this myth just refuses to die), ask yourselves this: what if our attackers WERE scoring more? What if Werner had been more clinical and we’d won 5-0 against Everton? Would we still be talking about how our midfielders need to score more?

The same reason that the midfield would be blamed if they galloped forward, never tracked back and left the defence exposed leading to a goal conceded. They all play a part in the system.
 

On Saturday we had 2 central midfielders, 1 of whom was deep and not ambitious with getting forward, the other who had a lot of time on the ball in the middle of the park and had the opportunity to progress play to our forward players - but regularly refused to play the forward pass. Both of these players contributed to not getting the ball forward quickly enough to our more attacking players, with one (Ngolo) regularly failing to play it forward despite having time and space to do so. 

Edited March 16, 20215 yr by nonotnowjim

hey Dean & not now,

I just think that to win the premier league you need your midfielders chipping in with goals and assists. Lamps was a kingmaker for us when he played, Currently our main midfield three over their respective Chelsea careers have these stats. 

Kovacic has 1 goal and 6 assists 59 league games. 

Jorginho 12 goals 3 assists from 77 league games. 

Kante 176 games 10 goals 13 assists.

IMO asking Kante to play a progressive forward game is asking for trouble. 

To compare ourselves with the best team in the land who have been without a striker all season, Manchester city, the midfield is the reason they're top of the league. Combined goal and assists for just this season, Gundogan 15, Sterling 16, Mahrez 15, KDB 16, Foden 14. 

I think the midfield is the conundrum Tuchel has to sort out. He has lots of players at his disposal through our squad so I expect changes in the summer tbh. 

Anyhow, small matter of getting past Atletico to look forward to. enjoy

 

21 minutes ago, Dointhejtdouble said:

hey Dean & not now,

I just think that to win the premier league you need your midfielders chipping in with goals and assists. Lamps was a kingmaker for us when he played, Currently our main midfield three over their respective Chelsea careers have these stats. 

Kovacic has 1 goal and 6 assists 59 league games. 

Jorginho 12 goals 3 assists from 77 league games. 

Kante 176 games 10 goals 13 assists.

IMO asking Kante to play a progressive forward game is asking for trouble. 

To compare ourselves with the best team in the land who have been without a striker all season, Manchester city, the midfield is the reason they're top of the league. Combined goal and assists for just this season, Gundogan 15, Sterling 16, Mahrez 15, KDB 16, Foden 14. 

I think the midfield is the conundrum Tuchel has to sort out. He has lots of players at his disposal through our squad so I expect changes in the summer tbh. 

Anyhow, small matter of getting past Atletico to look forward to. enjoy

 

While I get the basis of your point, for a fair fight then you need the likes of Fernandinho, Rodri and Zivchenko in there instead of Sterling, Mahrez and Foden who all play a lot further forward than  Kova, Jorg and Kante.

Instead of this constant Jorginho and Kante comparsion, can we all just agree that the two of them simply don't work together? They both bring the worst out of each other as far as I am concerned.

As for why Kante is getting more criticism for his performance, it all comes back to the football we are playing. If we are playing a system more suited to Kante's abilities, then it would be Jorginho getting the most criticism right now. 

It's very similar to Kante and Fabregas under Conte. Neither of them worked well together, and when it came to who would be paired alongside Matic, it was Kante who got the nod. Conte's system favoured Kante more than it did Fabregas, so it was Fabregas that became the squad player.

1 hour ago, nonotnowjim said:

I think people don't expect him to turn into Zola.  As many have said, his role against Leeds of being the progressive midfielder tasked with carrying the ball forward didn't suit his skillset. But that is the role he had on Saturday and the role he should be evaluated on. 7 progressive forward passes (which was  the stat that someone on here gave) across 93 mins, simply isn't good enough. 

Kante played that role well and provide some more. The problem got nothing to do with Kante. 

In perfect world I want us to have a Pogba or Fabregas next to a Fabinho or a pirlo next to kante. 

 

5 minutes ago, Sexyfootball said:

Fernandinho, Rodri and Zivchenko in there instead of Sterling, Mahrez and Foden who all play a lot further forward than  Kova, Jorg and Kante.

Easy mate,

Fernandinho has played 811 minutes this season, has been used as a defender for most of that. Zinchenko is a left back, Dias i'll give you. 🙂 

But.

KDB and Gundogan operate in a central midfield area. Foden is a central midfielder who can operate out wide as he did against us... 

The other point is that when you have strikers and wide player who score, the central midfield players tend to score more as well. Goals breed confidence. 

1 minute ago, Scott Harris said:

Instead of this constant Jorginho and Kante comparsion, can we all just agree that the two of them simply don't work together? They both bring the worst out of each other as far as I am concerned.

As for why Kante is getting more criticism for his performance, it all comes back to the football we are playing. If we are playing a system more suited to Kante's abilities, then it would be Jorginho getting the most criticism right now. 

It's very similar to Kante and Fabregas under Conte. Neither of them worked well together, and when it came to who would be paired alongside Matic, it was Kante who got the nod. Conte's system favoured Kante more than it did Fabregas, so it was Fabregas that became the squad player.

Actually under Conte, it was matic or fab not kante or fab. And by 2nd half of the season, cecs started tons of game because our offense suddenly look magic with cesc in the team

2 minutes ago, Bob stark said:

Actually under Conte, it was matic or fab not kante or fab. And by 2nd half of the season, cecs started tons of game because our offense suddenly look magic with cesc in the team

Fair enough, but my point is basically the same if you swap Kante's name with Matic.

4 hours ago, yorkleyblue said:

I think too many people judge a player's entire contribution to a match on what the Sky/BT match director chooses to show us, and, as @just said, the view of the player on the ball in the middle of the pitch is vastly different to the view we get from above and in wide-screen.

A forward player making any number of runs into space are of no benefit at all if the man on the ball is fronted up by a row of three or four opponents blocking his view.  Also, a player in the centre of the field might see the run, but then has to judge whether their advanced teammate might or might not be offside, a defender might or might not be in a position to step across, the next-step game plan in their mind might be to pass/advance down the wings or any number of other variables that go through the mind every millisecond.

Honestly, I sometimes think that some of you have never actually played the game.  But I'm sure someone can provide a load of stats and youtubes to show me the error of my opinion.

This, I think people don't realize how different the vision of what we see on tv and what player see on the field. 

I have these feeling that people think that making line breaking pass or pass for runner is easy. If you can make these pass consistently, you are already close to wc. 

 

 

3 hours ago, Dointhejtdouble said:

Why people are expecting Kante, the most destructive footballer on the planet breaking up and stopping play, to suddenly be Zola in the final third? Makalele had trouble scoring penalties let alone picking a pass around the box. It wasnt his game, nor is it Kante's. I just want him to win it and give it. 

Why is there always the insistence in talking in the extremes? There's middle ground between expecting him to be Zola and accepting any lack of play in the final third. Jorginho and Kovacic get (fairly) questioned for their final piece of play so why should Kante be immune to that? For example was one piece of play where he had four passing options and not only choose the player that was offside but managed to mess up the pass, any PL player is fair game to critisism for that.

As regards to Maka, he was a fantastic deep lying playmaker and was one of the key reason's we were so dominant under Mou 1.0, so much so that Chris Coleman set his entire gameplan around stopping him in possession and incidentally it was after that match that our dominance started to wane.

https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11668/2370566/coleman-reveals-masterplan

42 minutes ago, Scott Harris said:

Fair enough, but my point is basically the same if you swap Kante's name with Matic.

Yup our current setup and play style suit Jorginho better. Although, imo Kante is far better player. I watched Kante absolutely destroyed soton midfield, constantly stealing the ball in high area and it amounted to nothing. Our transition game is just very dysfunctional but it is part of slow controlled possession football that Tuchel want. Imagine Kante played for pool, it will be ridiculous

 

 

Argo. 

I dont think there is anything extreme about the point that that Kante and Makalele are very similar players or the fact neither are creative schemers like Deco or fabregas. I never regarded Maka as a deep lying midfielder/ playmaker and he only created 4 goals in 144 league appearances for us. https://www.premierleague.com/players/2454/Claude-Makelele/stats 

We saw what Kante does playing further up the pitch under Sarri and everyone wanted him doing what he does best in midfield and leaving the attacking to Hazard etc. Without doubt, kante is the best in world football at that defensive position protecting his defence. Anyhow, it's TT that decides so let's see what solutions he comes up with. 

 

43 minutes ago, Dointhejtdouble said:

Easy mate,

Fernandinho has played 811 minutes this season, has been used as a defender for most of that. Zinchenko is a left back, Dias i'll give you. 🙂 

But.

KDB and Gundogan operate in a central midfield area. Foden is a central midfielder who can operate out wide as he did against us... 

The other point is that when you have strikers and wide player who score, the central midfield players tend to score more as well. Goals breed confidence. 

Assuming we take the Whoscored stats at face value, this is who has played in the City midfield this year (I am taking PL games only as that is the stats you offered up for Kova, Kante and Jorginho)

Apart from Gundogan's Lampardesque goal scoring, and the inevitable high level of assists from DeBruyne, the rest are pretty much on par with our three.

I am sure TT will be trying to bolster our midfield options so we get more output from whoever plays there. Not many De Bruyne's out there to be fair, just a shame we let our one go 🙂

Good point about goals breeding confidence. Almost all our forwards and attacking midfielders are in dire need of both !

1 hour ago, Scott Harris said:

Instead of this constant Jorginho and Kante comparsion, can we all just agree that the two of them simply don't work together? They both bring the worst out of each other as far as I am concerned.

As for why Kante is getting more criticism for his performance, it all comes back to the football we are playing. If we are playing a system more suited to Kante's abilities, then it would be Jorginho getting the most criticism right now. 

It's very similar to Kante and Fabregas under Conte. Neither of them worked well together, and when it came to who would be paired alongside Matic, it was Kante who got the nod. Conte's system favoured Kante more than it did Fabregas, so it was Fabregas that became the squad player.

Hi Scott. I commend your efforts to find some coming ground 🙂 and you’re probably right. My pushback would be it’s not that big a sample yet (if anyone has any stats, please post), it did seem to work pretty well against Liverpool, and we haven’t seen the pairing enough times under Tuchel to conclude one way or the other. 

7 minutes ago, Dean said:

Hi Scott. I commend your efforts to find some coming ground 🙂 and you’re probably right. My pushback would be it’s not that big a sample yet (if anyone has any stats, please post), it did seem to work pretty well against Liverpool, and we haven’t seen the pairing enough times under Tuchel to conclude one way or the other. 

I think Tuchel had us set up a bit differently against Liverpool. Kante was a lot deeper and as soon as he got the ball, he was releasing it quickly, like his pass for Werner's offside goal. I prefer that Kante. The problem is that I don't think we could play that way every week. It only really works against teams that press hard and have their defence play a very high line.