44 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

He has shown for the past 3 years that he can deal with the press so you repeating the same old thing over and over doesn't make Jorginho a worse player at all. What gives you the title is a striker that can score 20 goals, the last time we had that we won the league.

We do need a new DM but Jorginho has done his role really well for us for 3 seasons now, one of the best deep lying playmakers in the PL without a doubt and also for 3 different managers, we simply wouldn't manage to finish top 4 and to win the CL without him in the previous seasons, simple as that.

 

Surely Jorginho has been good in his role. That doesn’t invalidate the fact that he was rubbish against teams like WBA. If you reread what I wrote you’ll see that I say that he is a very good option to play against teams in the top and European teams, but even you have to admit that he has got limitations against teams where he is pressed with intent and where we need an intelligent midfielder to break the bus.

Emerson says hi

 

2 hours ago, SydneyChelsea said:

All that may be true and while the word "legend" is thrown around far too easily - especially in reference to Jorginho - he has proved he is actually quite reliable in big games. He is a great tactical player who can step up to take big penalties and for the most part will follow a coach's tactical plan to a T.

That said, it still doesn't really provide any evidence to support the ideas that he has a unique skill set  or that he is a masterful reader of the game or he has excellent technical ability. I see these terms thrown around by fans but there's really nothing to back that up either this year or the two previous.

His skill set is incredibly limited. It's why he often is described, generously, as a systems player, because the things he is good at (short passing in midfield, intercepting long passes, taking penalties) do not complement nor cover his weaknesses (pace/physicality, creativity, tackling) and therefore he needs a niche role within a team's tactics in order to be merely functional.

His technical ability is limited. He often fails to deliver long balls to a player's run, instead providing it either behind or directly at them, which breaks momentum. The way in which he strikes the ball while passing reduces backspin and you will often see his balls fail to slow on the bounce, for this reason.

His ability to dictate tempo is non-existent and frankly i'm not convinced that any Chelsea fan who uses this phrase actually knows what it means. The phrase reminds me of players like Pirlo, Iniesta, Xavi, Xabi Alonso, Sneijder and Modric. It is the ability to speed up the tempo by exchanging quick short passes in midfield combined with the ability to sit deeper and switch the play from left to right flanks. Jorginho is good at the latter but lacks the technical and physical ability to do the former.

Like @RMH points out, all the above only rears its head when a smaller team sits back and allows Jorginho time on the ball. There is scarcely a bigger insult to a professional footballer than being given the ball because they can trust you won't do much with it, and pretty much every team that has figured Chelsea out under successive managers have realised this is one of the keys to beating Chelsea. He is a good, serviceable player but given his reputation and what the team actually needs from its midfielders, we need to do a lot better.

 

 

Good post!

24 minutes ago, RMH said:

Surely Jorginho has been good in his role. That doesn’t invalidate the fact that he was rubbish against teams like WBA. If you reread what I wrote you’ll see that I say that he is a very good option to play against teams in the top and European teams, but even you have to admit that he has got limitations against teams where he is pressed with intent and where we need an intelligent midfielder to break the bus.

Emerson says hi

 

He's not the only one that was rubbish against a lower end team for once in a season so that is hardly an argument against him. There had been so many examples during the past seasons where he didn't have any problems against teams pressing him so I can't that as an argument against him, if teams allow us to have possession he's doing his role, if teams press and contest the possession he's still doing his role, that has been the case under 3 different managers so go figure.

And I don't know what you want to say about Emerson that didn't even have a significant role in our CL campaign nor in our previous seasons, without Jorginho we don't finish top 3 under Sarri, top 4 under Lampard and we don't win the CL with Tuchel, how does your picture of Emerson being a part of the squad contradict any of that?

38 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

He's not the only one that was rubbish against a lower end team for once in a season so that is hardly an argument against him. There had been so many examples during the past seasons where he didn't have any problems against teams pressing him so I can't that as an argument against him, if teams allow us to have possession he's doing his role, if teams press and contest the possession he's still doing his role, that has been the case under 3 different managers so go figure.

And I don't know what you want to say about Emerson that didn't even have a significant role in our CL campaign nor in our previous seasons, without Jorginho we don't finish top 3 under Sarri, top 4 under Lampard and we don't win the CL with Tuchel, how does your picture of Emerson being a part of the squad contradict any of that?

So Emerson did not score one goal as did Jorginho? Look mate, I’m not against Jorginho, it’s all this defending of him like a cult that makes me want him out. I’ve said it many times, he’s very good against certain type of teams and he’s rubbish and has no influence against other type of teams. He does not suit every game, get over it. Take it as you wish, I don’t want him gone, but I don’t want him against the WBAs of the league. And by the way, he was utter rubbish against WBA and not a single player was as rubbish as he was that day.

4 hours ago, SydneyChelsea said:

All that may be true and while the word "legend" is thrown around far too easily - especially in reference to Jorginho - he has proved he is actually quite reliable in big games. He is a great tactical player who can step up to take big penalties and for the most part will follow a coach's tactical plan to a T.

That said, it still doesn't really provide any evidence to support the ideas that he has a unique skill set  or that he is a masterful reader of the game or he has excellent technical ability. I see these terms thrown around by fans but there's really nothing to back that up either this year or the two previous.

His skill set is incredibly limited. It's why he often is described, generously, as a systems player, because the things he is good at (short passing in midfield, intercepting long passes, taking penalties) do not complement nor cover his weaknesses (pace/physicality, creativity, tackling) and therefore he needs a niche role within a team's tactics in order to be merely functional.

His technical ability is limited. He often fails to deliver long balls to a player's run, instead providing it either behind or directly at them, which breaks momentum. The way in which he strikes the ball while passing reduces backspin and you will often see his balls fail to slow on the bounce, for this reason.

His ability to dictate tempo is non-existent and frankly i'm not convinced that any Chelsea fan who uses this phrase actually knows what it means. The phrase reminds me of players like Pirlo, Iniesta, Xavi, Xabi Alonso, Sneijder and Modric. It is the ability to speed up the tempo by exchanging quick short passes in midfield combined with the ability to sit deeper and switch the play from left to right flanks. Jorginho is good at the latter but lacks the technical and physical ability to do the former.

Like @RMH points out, all the above only rears its head when a smaller team sits back and allows Jorginho time on the ball. There is scarcely a bigger insult to a professional footballer than being given the ball because they can trust you won't do much with it, and pretty much every team that has figured Chelsea out under successive managers have realised this is one of the keys to beating Chelsea. He is a good, serviceable player but given his reputation and what the team actually needs from its midfielders, we need to do a lot better.

 

 

I don't want to debate you because we will never see eye to eye on this one. Your views are obviously extremely strong on Jorginho after that essay. It really does baffle me why you have such a view as we've just won the pinnacle of the game with him in the team - he's one of our players and we should adore him for the achievement along with the rest of the team.

I'm just grateful that Tuchel sees his skills as I do. As does Mancini. As do most professional managers he's played under.

49 minutes ago, RMH said:

So Emerson did not score one goal as did Jorginho? Look mate, I’m not against Jorginho, it’s all this defending of him like a cult that makes me want him out. I’ve said it many times, he’s very good against certain type of teams and he’s rubbish and has no influence against other type of teams. He does not suit every game, get over it. Take it as you wish, I don’t want him gone, but I don’t want him against the WBAs of the league. And by the way, he was utter rubbish against WBA and not a single player was as rubbish as he was that day.

I just think that you have no real argument against him, you can't say that he was bad in the big matches so you emphasize a couple of games where he played bad against low end teams and ignore that despite that fact, most of the time he was really really comfortable against low end teams for the past 3 seasons where we had over 65% possession most of the time!

It's almost like you're searching for ways to diminish him as a player and people have been doing that for a long time now which makes me feel like this "cult" is more about criticizing and hating Jorginho than anything else. If he had played well against all lower end teams but failed to deliver in the big games against the top teams you would still complain about him and then you would probably say that he simply isn't good enough but now you're pointing to Emerson which makes no sense at all to me, I can then put Emerson next to Mount but it really makes no sense so I'm not sure why are you even having a discourse like that, it's pretty clear that Jorginho was vital for us.

I do want us to sign a new DM, I have even said back in January that the club should back Lampard if that's the only problem for him and sign Rice but I have seen some people on social media writing like they simply love and adore Declan Rice despite the fact that he isn't even a Chelsea player while at the same time hating on Jorginho so much... If you want him out because I'm telling you that I don't understand why you keep singing the same old song about Jorginho when he has clearly been a good player for us then it's maybe not me that makes you to want him out but rather that you're just trying to justify it in multiple ways.

 

56 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

I just think that you have no real argument against him, you can't say that he was bad in the big matches so you emphasize a couple of games where he played bad against low end teams and ignore that despite that fact, most of the time he was really really comfortable against low end teams for the past 3 seasons where we had over 65% possession most of the time!

It's almost like you're searching for ways to diminish him as a player and people have been doing that for a long time now which makes me feel like this "cult" is more about criticizing and hating Jorginho than anything else. If he had played well against all lower end teams but failed to deliver in the big games against the top teams you would still complain about him and then you would probably say that he simply isn't good enough but now you're pointing to Emerson which makes no sense at all to me, I can then put Emerson next to Mount but it really makes no sense so I'm not sure why are you even having a discourse like that, it's pretty clear that Jorginho was vital for us.

I do want us to sign a new DM, I have even said back in January that the club should back Lampard if that's the only problem for him and sign Rice but I have seen some people on social media writing like they simply love and adore Declan Rice despite the fact that he isn't even a Chelsea player while at the same time hating on Jorginho so much... If you want him out because I'm telling you that I don't understand why you keep singing the same old song about Jorginho when he has clearly been a good player for us then it's maybe not me that makes you to want him out but rather that you're just trying to justify it in multiple ways.

 

Ok, let me repeat it again as I think that you haven’t clearly read what I’m saying.

He’s been very good against certain type of opposition and clearly bad or ineffective against other type of opposition that sit back and press physically. I think we should keep him for the CL and top PL teams as clearly the continental type of football and top teams that play high line suits his play very well. However, we need a more creative midfielder that can open up tight defences and, at the same time, protect a back line against counters, which Jorginho can’t most of the time due to his lack of pace and physicality. His “regista” or whatever is called role is not suitable against the mid and low table teams.

Edited June 13, 20215 yr by RMH

52 minutes ago, DannyVblue said:

I don't want to debate you because we will never see eye to eye on this one. Your views are obviously extremely strong on Jorginho after that essay. It really does baffle me why you have such a view as we've just won the pinnacle of the game with him in the team - he's one of our players and we should adore him for the achievement along with the rest of the team.

I'm just grateful that Tuchel sees his skills as I do. As does Mancini. As do most professional managers he's played under.

Some of  the negativity around Jorginho i find quite staggering. For a player that is so much of a liability, we had the 3rd best defence in the league under sarri in front of a back 4, we had the second best this season mainly with a 5, we had the best defence ever in champions league run, and italy are unbeaten in 28 games!

There have been horrir shows, but they are pretty few and far between, and he is usually great in the games.

He has his limitations, but so does every player. He gets criticized when we struggle to break teams down, when there are usually 4 or 5 'specialist' attackers that are supposed to create and score goals. 

There is way more criticism of him, than you see defending from the 'Jorginho cult' or whatever that is. 

He does loads of things better than Rice aswell, but for some reason Rice is a Chelsea fan favourite despite not actually being Chelsea player, and hasnt played any significant game in his career yet. 

Anyway rant over. 

 

 

37 minutes ago, big blue said:

Some of  the negativity around Jorginho i find quite staggering. For a player that is so much of a liability, we had the 3rd best defence in the league under sarri in front of a back 4, we had the second best this season mainly with a 5, we had the best defence ever in champions league run, and italy are unbeaten in 28 games!

There have been horrir shows, but they are pretty few and far between, and he is usually great in the games.

He has his limitations, but so does every player. He gets criticized when we struggle to break teams down, when there are usually 4 or 5 'specialist' attackers that are supposed to create and score goals. 

There is way more criticism of him, than you see defending from the 'Jorginho cult' or whatever that is. 

He does loads of things better than Rice aswell, but for some reason Rice is a Chelsea fan favourite despite not actually being Chelsea player, and hasnt played any significant game in his career yet. 

Anyway rant over. 

I would prefer Rice yet not going to knock Jorginho as he knows his limitations and sometimes takes a yellow when he realises he can' stop a break.

Very occasionally he does make a defence splitting pass though the vast majority are pedestrian, another thing I also like about him is that when our defenders are being closed down on the ball he makes himself available for the easy pass. 

7 hours ago, SydneyChelsea said:

All that may be true and while the word "legend" is thrown around far too easily - especially in reference to Jorginho - he has proved he is actually quite reliable in big games. He is a great tactical player who can step up to take big penalties and for the most part will follow a coach's tactical plan to a T.....

Oh dear. You had to go and poke the bear didn't you...

2 hours ago, RMH said:

Ok, let me repeat it again as I think that you haven’t clearly read what I’m saying.

He’s been very good against certain type of opposition and clearly bad or ineffective against other type of opposition that sit back and press physically. I think we should keep him for the CL and top PL teams as clearly the continental type of football and top teams that play high line suits his play very well. However, we need a more creative midfielder that can open up tight defences and, at the same time, protect a back line against counters, which Jorginho can’t most of the time due to his lack of pace and physicality. His “regista” or whatever is called role is not suitable against the mid and low table teams.

Just because he had a few bad games it doesn't mean that he's overall ineffective, most of the time he was in fact effective with keeping posession and passing the ball forward.

I can only agree to disagree.

I am warming to the idea of Ampadu returning and trying to learn from Jorgi. 

Our midfield was very light with having 4 options, even more so with Gilmour missinf significant time injured and Kova missing a crucial part injured too.

6 options,nor 7 we switch to a midfield 3, sounds much better depth ahead of a long season.

 

DM: Jorginho,  Ampadu

CM: Kante, Gilmour, Kovacic, Gallagher, Mount

What is this 'negativity' that you are all seeing here? 😂 

All I see are balanced posts stating that Jorginho is excellent against good teams/teams that attack us but is limited while trying to break down teams sitting deep. And Jorginho's skillset is much better replaced by some one who can quicken the tempo, and provide that defense splitting pass against such teams. Pretty straightforward really, hardly a knock on Jorginho. I will go so far as to say that Kante is perhaps even more ineffective than Jorginho against parked buses. I can see a Jorginho + more creative mid combination working in such cases, doesn't mean there's negativity surrounding Kante. Simple point being that the combination of the two + Kova is simply not creative enough under these specific (but frequently occuring) circumstances.

So Jorginho is highly valued but we need reinforcements somewhere to compensate for his lack of creativity.

 

7 hours ago, DannyVblue said:

I don't want to debate you because we will never see eye to eye on this one. Your views are obviously extremely strong on Jorginho after that essay. It really does baffle me why you have such a view as we've just won the pinnacle of the game with him in the team - he's one of our players and we should adore him for the achievement along with the rest of the team.

I'm just grateful that Tuchel sees his skills as I do. As does Mancini. As do most professional managers he's played under.

I'm baffled - if you're not interested in discussion, why are you wasting your time on a football forum?

I wrote an "essay" because I prefer to discuss actual substance in my responses instead of trite, happy-clappy nonsense interspersed with commentator's cliches. It goes without saying that as long as Jorginho wears Chelsea blue we all support him; some of us don't feel the need to proclaim this at every turn.

I don't have a strong opinion on Jorginho. I think he's a good player whose best isn't good enough for this Chelsea - quite milquetoast really. Ironically I think my opinion is not all that different from @Gol15 who I gather also thinks he's a good player but our needs lie elsewhere.

I'm interested in why people think he's a unique player but i'm yet to see anything of substance as most pieces arguing in his favour involve contrived statistical analysis or football cliche nonsense.

 

 

 

24 minutes ago, SydneyChelsea said:

I'm baffled - if you're not interested in discussion, why are you wasting your time on a football forum?

I wrote an "essay" because I prefer to discuss actual substance in my responses instead of trite, happy-clappy nonsense interspersed with commentator's cliches. It goes without saying that as long as Jorginho wears Chelsea blue we all support him; some of us don't feel the need to proclaim this at every turn.

I don't have a strong opinion on Jorginho. I think he's a good player whose best isn't good enough for this Chelsea - quite milquetoast really. Ironically I think my opinion is not all that different from @Gol15 who I gather also thinks he's a good player but our needs lie elsewhere.

I'm interested in why people think he's a unique player but i'm yet to see anything of substance as most pieces arguing in his favour involve contrived statistical analysis or football cliche nonsense.

Paging @just. Can you inform SC that it is easier to light some incense to praise almighty Jorginho and be done with it?

Edited June 14, 20215 yr by Spiller86

58 minutes ago, ashwin said:

What is this 'negativity' that you are all seeing here? 😂 

All I see are balanced posts stating that Jorginho is excellent against good teams/teams that attack us but is limited while trying to break down teams sitting deep. And Jorginho's skillset is much better replaced by some one who can quicken the tempo, and provide that defense splitting pass against such teams. Pretty straightforward really, hardly a knock on Jorginho. I will go so far as to say that Kante is perhaps even more ineffective than Jorginho against parked buses. I can see a Jorginho + more creative mid combination working in such cases, doesn't mean there's negativity surrounding Kante. Simple point being that the combination of the two + Kova is simply not creative enough under these specific (but frequently occuring) circumstances.

So Jorginho is highly valued but we need reinforcements somewhere to compensate for his lack of creativity.

 

There's been two really big changes under Tuchel that I think have really underlined the strengths/weaknesses of our squad

• Increased counter-pressing, which suits Kante; apart from having the freedom to chase down players, Kante is able to use his energy and pace to support attacks as a free runner rather than relying on him to pick passes from deeper as he often did under Sarri/Lampard.
• Shift to the back three and a focus on a constricting high line means that the CBs and not the midfielders need to be the deep-lying playmakers.

In this system Jorginho and Kovacic both fit the category of "good but not what we need" because their weaknesses in the final third prevent them from being effective against parked defenses. They both seem to do best in bigger games against teams that are more tactically aggressive against us.

If we needed a player who "recycles possession" then we'd be better of ditching Jorginho for someone like Wilfred Ndidi or Yves Bissouma who do much the same thing with added defensive presence (particularly at set pieces). If we need an attacking/creative player then we'd be better off ditching Kovacic for someone like Youri Tielemans or Nicolo Barella or Saul Niguez who are genuine attacking threats.

I think our midfield situation is sort of like when we had the likes of Kalou/Malouda or Pedro/Willian - jack of most trades, master of none

 

Edited June 14, 20215 yr by SydneyChelsea

10 hours ago, Gol15 said:

Just because he had a few bad games it doesn't mean that he's overall ineffective, most of the time he was in fact effective with keeping posession and passing the ball forward.

I can only agree to disagree.

Yes, it is a great achievement to help us keep the ball against teams that, in fact, want us to keep the ball because they are all parking the bus. I call that being ineffective because his job is redundant in those situations.

We'll have to agree to disagree.

21 hours ago, RMH said:

So Emerson did not score one goal as did Jorginho? Look mate, I’m not against Jorginho, it’s all this defending of him like a cult that makes me want him out. I’ve said it many times, he’s very good against certain type of teams and he’s rubbish and has no influence against other type of teams. He does not suit every game, get over it. Take it as you wish, I don’t want him gone, but I don’t want him against the WBAs of the league. And by the way, he was utter rubbish against WBA and not a single player was as rubbish as he was that day.

Our record against the lesser teams under Sarri (where the system was literally built around Jorginho) was next to perfect (57 out of 66 against the bottom 11). Turkey parked a double decker against Italy and they still created chances at will.

We create more than enough against these sh*t house teams it's the finishing that's been the biggest problem. 

1 minute ago, Argo said:

Our record against the lesser teams under Sarri (where the system was literally built around Jorginho) was next to perfect (57 out of 66 against the bottom 11). Turkey parked a double decker against Italy and they still created chances at will.

We create more than enough against these sh*t house teams it's the finishing that's been the biggest problem. 

Again, that doesn't invalidate the fact that Jorginho's role recycling the ball (as many like to call it) against those teams is redundant.

6 hours ago, RMH said:

Yes, it is a great achievement to help us keep the ball against teams that, in fact, want us to keep the ball because they are all parking the bus. I call that being ineffective because his job is redundant in those situations.

We'll have to agree to disagree.

If him doing his job at the base of the midfield is being redundant I think that you should at the very least be consistent with that whole view and post the same thing for every other midfielder e.g. Kovacic, Kante and so on...

1 hour ago, Argo said:

Our record against the lesser teams under Sarri (where the system was literally built around Jorginho) was next to perfect (57 out of 66 against the bottom 11). Turkey parked a double decker against Italy and they still created chances at will.

We create more than enough against these sh*t house teams it's the finishing that's been the biggest problem. 

This season Crystal Palace games were a great example of a team that had a plan to park the bus against us, we controlled the possession, managed to score once and then they opened up and tried to press Jorginho and we ended up scoring for fun as soon as they did that, in both scenarios Jorginho was doing his role but somehow he's redundant and not the fact that we haven't had a striker capable of solving those kinds of games on a regular basis ever since D.Costa left.

 

10 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

If him doing his job at the base of the midfield is being redundant I think that you should at the very least be consistent with that whole view and post the same thing for every other midfielder e.g. Kovacic, Kante and so on...

So the role of Kovacic or Kante is the same as that of Jorginho?

3 minutes ago, RMH said:

So the role of Kovacic or Kante is the same as that of Jorginho?

Not really but if you're so much into arguing how Jorginho is redundant you should at the very least be aware of that same issue with basically all of the rest of our midfielders that also don't get to do much against teams that park the bus, if the player that is at the base of the midfield is redundant when he's recovering the ball surely the 2 other midfielders that have more freedom should do much more than him but they also become redundant and can't do what you want only Jorginho to do... Double standard much?

14 hours ago, SydneyChelsea said:

I'm baffled - if you're not interested in discussion, why are you wasting your time on a football forum?

I wrote an "essay" because I prefer to discuss actual substance in my responses instead of trite, happy-clappy nonsense interspersed with commentator's cliches. It goes without saying that as long as Jorginho wears Chelsea blue we all support him; some of us don't feel the need to proclaim this at every turn.

I don't have a strong opinion on Jorginho. I think he's a good player whose best isn't good enough for this Chelsea - quite milquetoast really. Ironically I think my opinion is not all that different from @Gol15 who I gather also thinks he's a good player but our needs lie elsewhere.

I'm interested in why people think he's a unique player but i'm yet to see anything of substance as most pieces arguing in his favour involve contrived statistical analysis or football cliche nonsense.

 

 

 

I'm sure that we need another DM, a classical one. But that doesn't mean that I'm going to make an argument against Jorginho because he has done well for us for 3 seasons in a row, he was our big buy and it paid off well, one of the few transfers in the last years that was fruitful.

1 hour ago, Gol15 said:

Not really but if you're so much into arguing how Jorginho is redundant you should at the very least be aware of that same issue with basically all of the rest of our midfielders that also don't get to do much against teams that park the bus, if the player that is at the base of the midfield is redundant when he's recovering the ball surely the 2 other midfielders that have more freedom should do much more than him but they also become redundant and can't do what you want only Jorginho to do... Double standard much?

My god you’re tedious....  

I’ve explained my posture several times, if you choose not to understand what I’m saying, it’s up to you. I’m not going to repeat myself.

Edited June 14, 20215 yr by RMH