Jorginho is.... (well now was) a Blue

[Gol15]

Anyway Jorginho with 7 goals is our top scorer in the league and if VAR hadn't ceased to exist today, he could have scored another one since Werner did win another penalty albeit after a rather clumsy shot but it was a handball.

FIRST MIDFIELDER TOP SCORER SINCE LAMPARD = WORLD CLASS J5

[PloKoon13]

Yet another exhibition in how tragically limited our midfield options are. This really must be the first area we address in the transfer window.

[PhilH930]

Credit for his composure and penalty taking. 
poor end to the season for me. Not creating chances or thru passes, and giving away chances at the back. West brom, arsenal and villa all come to mind. 

[just]

40 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

Anyway Jorginho with 7 goals is our top scorer in the league and if VAR hadn't ceased to exist today, he could have scored another one since Werner did win another penalty albeit after a rather clumsy shot but it was a handball.

FIRST MIDFIELDER TOP SCORER SINCE LAMPARD = WORLD CLASS J5

You have a point Gol. Might be worth trying him in a two up front?

Jorginho with his pace and physical presence and Werner with his silky touch and devastating aerial power. That should frighten defenders.

It would frighten me.

[Nibs]

24 minutes ago, PloKoon13 said:

Yet another exhibition in how tragically limited our midfield options are. This really must be the first area we address in the transfer window.

We certainly need an upgrade on Jorginho and Kovacic but we equally need a striker who can find the back of the net or at least trouble the keeper.

 

[Guest Sindre]

On 23/05/2021 at 20:09, just said:

 

His "atrocious" game! What was so atrocious in that game? His passing, his tackling? Was he worse than Jorginho today? Against Arsenal? Against WBA? Against Leeds? Did Gilmour cost us a goal against Fulham?

Gilmour certainly wasn't MOTM against Fulham but he was hardly atrocious was he? He played with Mount and Ziyech in the middle. And the reason he played was because we had the 2nd leg against Madrid three days later and Tuchel, (quite rightly), wanted to rest players.

 

 

He lost the ball in horrible positions three times that game. Jorginho would have been slaughtered for every one of them.
He'd also have been slaughtered for the penalty Gilmour gave away at the Etihad.

Not that it matters but this constant urge to put Jorginho down is tedious. Everyone is incredibly keen to point it out when he's had a poor game but remain very, very quiet when he's having top ones. Of which he has had many under Tuchel.

[Spiller86]

On 24/05/2021 at 05:49, just said:

You have a point Gol. Might be worth trying him in a two up front?

Jorginho with his pace and physical presence and Werner with his silky touch and devastating aerial power. That should frighten defenders.

It would frighten me.

Can you imagine! Giroud might actually be quicker than Jorginho.

[Munkunku]

4 hours ago, Spiller86 said:

Can you imagine! Giroud might actually be quicker than Jorginho.

I think I’m quicker than Jorginho...

@Malta Blues mind is quicker than Jorginho and he’s touched in the nut. 

[axman2526]

Would fancy Jorgi to finish better than Werner when both are onside though, provided he can get to the ball in time.

[Munkunku]

7 minutes ago, axman2526 said:

Would fancy Jorgi to finish better than Werner when both are onside though, provided he can get to the ball in time.

He’d only turn around 5 yards from goal and pass it back to our keeper...

[Malta Blue]

1 hour ago, Munkworth said:

I think I’m quicker than Jorginho...

@Malta Blues mind is quicker than Jorginho and he’s touched in the nut. 

[just]

7 hours ago, Sindre said:

He lost the ball in horrible positions three times that game. Jorginho would have been slaughtered for every one of them.
He'd also have been slaughtered for the penalty Gilmour gave away at the Etihad.

Not that it matters but this constant urge to put Jorginho down is tedious. Everyone is incredibly keen to point it out when he's had a poor game but remain very, very quiet when he's having top ones. Of which he has had many under Tuchel.

Just looked at the game stats to check what you are claiming. I found an 85.5% pass completion rate for Gilmour. No dispossesions, 1 key pass, and a 6.91match rating. As I said previously, not a MOTM performance granted, but "atrocious"? I don't think so.

And yes, Jorginho has good games, but we all know those are generally in situations where he isn't pressed closely or physically challenged. But he has more games where he is either Mr.Average or, as in games recently, a real liability.

He's not good enough Sindre. Move on.

[Guest Sindre]

32 minutes ago, just said:

And yes, Jorginho has good games, but we all know those are generally in situations where he isn't pressed closely or physically challenged. But he has more games where he is either Mr.Average or, as in games recently, a real liability.

He's not good enough Sindre. Move on.

Instrumental in both legs v Porto and Real Madrid. Same against City in the FA-Cup semi. To name a few.
All teams that are focused on pressing that.

But we'll obviously never agree here. Jorginho has his big flaws and I've never been his biggest fan really. But i've seen the effort he's put in since February in particular and do feel he deserves some recognition for that. Particularly as he's played a very big part in us being in the CL final as well. 

[just]

2 hours ago, Sindre said:

Instrumental in both legs v Porto and Real Madrid. Same against City in the FA-Cup semi. To name a few.
All teams that are focused on pressing that.

But we'll obviously never agree here. Jorginho has his big flaws and I've never been his biggest fan really. But i've seen the effort he's put in since February in particular and do feel he deserves some recognition for that. Particularly as he's played a very big part in us being in the CL final as well. 

Well let's all hope he has one of his good games if he starts on Saturday.

[Spiller86]

5 hours ago, Munkworth said:

I think I’m quicker than Jorginho...

@Malta Blues mind is quicker than Jorginho and he’s touched in the nut. 

If only you were good at pointing you could be a misunderstood regista for Chelsea. 

Edited May 25, 2021 by Spiller86

[zolawannabe25]

When he’s good he’s very good, when he’s bad he’s appalling. I think he relies on others a lot too, in the champions league run kante was a monster and as a result gave Jorginho space, options and time. Against Villa him and kovacic gave each other none of those things. It’s a similar story when he plays for Italy barella and verratti give him those three things. When they are stripped from him he struggles. It’s something he’ll never be able to do but he’ll never be able to recover from a mistake so when he makes them it’s bad. Mikel played a similar way to him but he could allow himself time due to his size. 

[Nibs]

16 hours ago, zolawannabe25 said:

When he’s good he’s very good, when he’s bad he’s appalling. I think he relies on others a lot too, in the champions league run kante was a monster and as a result gave Jorginho space, options and time. Against Villa him and kovacic gave each other none of those things. It’s a similar story when he plays for Italy barella and verratti give him those three things. When they are stripped from him he struggles. It’s something he’ll never be able to do but he’ll never be able to recover from a mistake so when he makes them it’s bad. Mikel played a similar way to him but he could allow himself time due to his size. 

In a Nutshell.

[Gol15]

17 hours ago, zolawannabe25 said:

When he’s good he’s very good, when he’s bad he’s appalling. I think he relies on others a lot too, in the champions league run kante was a monster and as a result gave Jorginho space, options and time. Against Villa him and kovacic gave each other none of those things. It’s a similar story when he plays for Italy barella and verratti give him those three things. When they are stripped from him he struggles. It’s something he’ll never be able to do but he’ll never be able to recover from a mistake so when he makes them it’s bad. Mikel played a similar way to him but he could allow himself time due to his size. 

He's a system based player so it's always a 2 way street there, as much as he depends on the rest, the rest depend on him but if there is no movement and no opening to keep the ball going there is where you need a player like Jorginho and this happens very often, remember all the pundits saying some seasons back "If you want to stop Sarri's Chelsea, stop Jorginho" - the problem was that it's not as simple;

In Napoli it was something so new that so many thought they were playing the most beautiful football in Europe, this was despite the fact that they lost Higuain that just in the previous year scored over 30 goals in all competitions for them. Move the ball and look for openings but if there are no openings recycle the possession till it happens and there is where Jorginho shined - keep the ball going and the opposition will get tired and then Hamsik/Allan start making things happen.

Similarly during Sarri's time here, as soon as the opposition invested more players and more energy to stop us from having the ball, someone else was free out there, most notably it was simply impossible to mark out both of our deeper players having the possession and Kante/Hazard at the same time and they were in turn free to make runs forward, no wonder that both of them (Kante&Hazard) had one of the most productive seasons ever.

Jorginho isn't as skillful as Busquets or Pirlo but he does that role, similarly if those 2 players don't have someone to pass to, they wouldn't be doing their role either. Kovacic and Jorginho were great together last season, Kova just came back from injury and Jorginho was playing so many games now at the end of the season so you pointing out one match where it didn't work doesn't make their partnership a bad one when you look over this whole period of 2 seasons...

Edited May 26, 2021 by Gol15

[Nibs]

Got to say, he looks a different player in that footage above Gol. You can 100% understand why Pep wanted to sign him based on that performance. Calm, controlled, keeping the ball moving with plenty of forward passes.

If we were getting that on a regular basis I am sure no-one would be complaining about him!

Edited May 26, 2021 by Nibs

[SydneyChelsea]

I posted this back in October and I still stand by it now.

I think that Jorginho even at his very best is not a good fit for a top-level Chelsea team. That's the problem - even his best may not be good enough.

We talk about cliches like 'recycling possession' but in truth these are fantasies in the minds of internet football hipsters rather than reality. As has been made abundantly to clear to ourselves, Barcelona, Man City etc. recycling and dominating possession is no longer a secure route to victory. If Jorginho's best trait is his ability to recycle possession then we are far better served by a player like Wilfred Ndidi or Casemiro who does the exact same but with much more defensive nous.

I still think things rings ever true, especially recently:

On 12/10/2020 at 18:25, SydneyChelsea said:

The bar has well and truly risen for deep-lying playmakers and it is no longer the realm of players who are free to 'recycle possession' and ping uncontested passes to the flanks. It is no exaggeration to say that teams can nullify Jorginho by giving him the ball knowing that he will most likely create little with it, like how Barcelona's tiki-taka was undone when teams just let them have the ball uncontested and shored up the vulnerability to the counter-attack from midfield.

Compare this to when Toni Kroos was given the ball by Liverpool in their CL quarter final; he destroyed them almost single-handedly on the counter attack.

Where I disagree with my original post, on the basis of a season of hindsight, is that there is some fault to the system. We've seen Jorginho in a few different systems this season and the same mixed results apply. It's hard to argue that the team is slow or lacks dynamism - if anything, it's far too quick to take stock of options on the counterattack - and Jorginho is provided plenty of passing options on a regularly basis. When Tuchel first started Hudson-Odoi in the WB role Jorginho played some lovely attempts at balls over the top for him to run on to, but these were not consistent and he inexplicably is unable to replicate the same sort of play with the ever-eager Chilwell/Alonso on the left.

I think @just says it best - Jorginho simply lacks the vision to match his aesthetic.

 

 

 

Edited May 27, 2021 by SydneyChelsea

[Gol15]

5 hours ago, Nibs said:

Got to say, he looks a different player in that footage above Gol. You can 100% understand why Pep wanted to sign him based on that performance. Calm, controlled, keeping the ball moving with plenty of forward passes.

If we were getting that on a regular basis I am sure no-one would be complaining about him!

The video was interesting for me for several reasons, one being that Napoli lost that game even after scoring 2 goals and having a clear chance for a 3rd that they missed, you don't see Jorginho being a weak link and I'm sure Napoli fans didn't scapegoat him after that loss at all.

He was the same player when he got here but his team was different, Napoli was a more drilled team for that kind of football, when Jorginho came he came into our counter-attacking 3-4-3 Conte's team and Sarri dismantled that and started with the 4-3-3 possession-based football which took some time for the players to get used to. Even so Jorginho did the same things in the first 2 seasons despite coming to a new league, the popular saying that I have read countless times was that Jorginho didn't fit in the PL but his first season when he should have been adapting to the new environment it didn't look like that at all, he was the same player as he was in Napoli without having much difficulties adapting at all.

He has been our best progressive passer in those first 2 seasons so that's 2 in a row and he had most passes into the final third as well, so it's a clear fact that he was consistently doing his role, nobody had more of those forward passes than him.
This is why I kept saying that he was doing his role, he really was - but fans disliked him anyway so from what I saw, what you said there in the end holds no water. In the end of the day I believe that because Sarri was disliked that sentiment was passed on to Jorginho but under Sarri we finished 3rd with 72 points, so we just finished the second season since Sarri was the manager and still we couldn't reach that amount of points and that was with Kepa as the first keeper.

[zolawannabe25]

6 hours ago, Gol15 said:

The video was interesting for me for several reasons, one being that Napoli lost that game even after scoring 2 goals and having a clear chance for a 3rd that they missed, you don't see Jorginho being a weak link and I'm sure Napoli fans didn't scapegoat him after that loss at all.

He was the same player when he got here but his team was different, Napoli was a more drilled team for that kind of football, when Jorginho came he came into our counter-attacking 3-4-3 Conte's team and Sarri dismantled that and started with the 4-3-3 possession-based football which took some time for the players to get used to. Even so Jorginho did the same things in the first 2 seasons despite coming to a new league, the popular saying that I have read countless times was that Jorginho didn't fit in the PL but his first season when he should have been adapting to the new environment it didn't look like that at all, he was the same player as he was in Napoli without having much difficulties adapting at all.

He has been our best progressive passer in those first 2 seasons so that's 2 in a row and he had most passes into the final third as well, so it's a clear fact that he was consistently doing his role, nobody had more of those forward passes than him.
This is why I kept saying that he was doing his role, he really was - but fans disliked him anyway so from what I saw, what you said there in the end holds no water. In the end of the day I believe that because Sarri was disliked that sentiment was passed on to Jorginho but under Sarri we finished 3rd with 72 points, so we just finished the second season since Sarri was the manager and still we couldn't reach that amount of points and that was with Kepa as the first keeper.

I’m not saying he’s a bad player, I actually like him but as the deepest midfielder the fact that they lost the game kind of makes my point. On the ball as a recycler he’s brilliant but he has flaws defensively. Makelele and Busquets are brilliant examples of this. Good on the ball great football intelligence and defensively brilliant in they protect the defence out of possession.

I also find your kepa comment funny, not a dig at you by the way, as he was himself approved by sarri as he was good with the ball at his feet and would allow us to play out from the back, even though his primary function as a goalkeeper is lacking.

[WhiteWall]

On 25/05/2021 at 17:01, axman2526 said:

Would fancy Jorgi to finish better than Werner when both are onside though, provided he can get to the ball in time.

Little chance of ever putting this to the test though.

[tmarmsi]

Not a fan, we've had better players than him in the past and will probably have better ones in the future, he will never really be remembered for doing great things because he's not that great, honestly believe his is one of the positions in the current team that can be easily upgraded 

[axman2526]

Much as I am a fan starting him in a 2 man midfield against Porto and Real is one thing, it is very different against a high press full strength City side.

Even Kante wont be able to save him of we play him in a 2.