Jorginho is.... (well now was) a Blue

[Argo]

3 hours ago, RMH said:

Again, that doesn't invalidate the fact that Jorginho's role recycling the ball (as many like to call it) against those teams is redundant.

Recycling possesion is an effective tool to prevent counter attacks. Often he becomes an option for an under pressure player to pass who will then find a player not under pressure, that was his main role under Sarri especially and I remember Barkley a lot of times had his backside saved by having the "Jorginho option" there. It stops the ball being pinched off us in dangerous areas and allows us to play through pressure. When Jorginho isn't playing or has an off day ala West Brom how effective he is playing well becomes apparent.

But the main point i was making is he's already shown he can be in a side that sweeps up against lesser opponents, ironically back then IIRC people wanted him playing against those sides but firmly on the bench for the big one's. 

Am i saying he's the perfect player? No, Would i swap him if we can find a prime Pirlo type or even if Billy finds his Liverpool/Everton form more consistently? Absolutely, but he's (not you specifically general observation) often talked about like he's Granit Xhaka level and I don't really get it.

[Gol15]

1 hour ago, RMH said:

My god you’re tedious....  

I’ve explained my posture several times, if you choose not to understand what I’m saying, it’s up to you. I’m not going to repeat myself.

I asked how come you're not thinking the exact same thing about Kovacic or Kante and you can't answer because... You just choose to simply focus only on Jorginho? A wild guess...

[RMH]

23 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

I asked how come you're not thinking the exact same thing about Kovacic or Kante and you can't answer because... You just choose to simply focus only on Jorginho? A wild guess...

Because I don’t think Kante’s or Kovacic’s roles against lesser teams are redundant (which is different from thinking whether they are good enough in what they are supposed to do). It’s you who see Jorginho haters everywhere.

[Gol15]

15 minutes ago, RMH said:

Because I don’t think Kante’s or Kovacic’s roles against lesser teams are redundant (which is different from thinking whether they are good enough in what they are supposed to do). It’s you who see Jorginho haters everywhere.

Jorginho was the best in the league in the last 2/3 seasons when it came down to passes into the final third, he was the best in the league in progressive passes in a season and in 2/3 seasons best in progressive passes in our squad. I wonder how would you honestly believe that Jorginho is redundant but that Kovacic somehow isn't, we have been much more dependent on Jorginho overall so I just can't see how would you argue that his role isn't needed, specially since our last 3 managers used him more than they used Kovacic.

[Spiller86]

Anyone else feel like it's Groundhog Day in this thread?

Someone makes an innocuous remark about how he is a solid player but we probably need to upgrade our midfield prompting 8 pages of statistics and passionate rebuttal.

[Gol15]

4 hours ago, Spiller86 said:

Anyone else feel like it's Groundhog Day in this thread?

Someone makes an innocuous remark about how he is a solid player but we probably need to upgrade our midfield prompting 8 pages of statistics and passionate rebuttal.

Not really a discussion about improving our squad, I think it's pretty clear that everyone would like to see a new DM so there is no issue about that.

There is however a difference in opinion about why we need it, because somehow there is a view about Jorginho not being capable of playing his role against smaller teams and then I simply asked why is it just him and just his position that should solve those kinds of games for us, I think if you really wanted to you could make a similar argument about multiple players and multiple positions pretty easy. After all Liverpool didn't really have the most productive midfield and Man City is basically playing with KDB in a free role as whatever he wants to play so it's not really the deep midfield solving games for them either.

Otherwise I personally lean towards our midfield being the most stable and the most reliable part of our squad for the past 3 seasons overall, more than our attackers and more than our defense and I would love to hear if anyone thinks otherwise because IMO the primary positions that we should look to strengthen are CB,DM,ST but I'm thinking there has to be some fans that would above all prefer to see a new ST first and foremost.

IMO if we get a quality CB and a new DM we could be a really stable team with tons of depth and the attack will find the way to score eventually as long as we're still rock stable in defense, maybe Werner and Havertz don't have 20 goals in them individually but maybe it's not needed if we're conceding only 30 goals in 38 games with a new CB and a new DM that would rotate with Jorginho. 

[SydneyChelsea]

5 hours ago, Gol15 said:

Jorginho was the best in the league in the last 2/3 seasons when it came down to passes into the final third, he was the best in the league in progressive passes in a season and in 2/3 seasons best in progressive passes in our squad. I wonder how would you honestly believe that Jorginho is redundant but that Kovacic somehow isn't, we have been much more dependent on Jorginho overall so I just can't see how would you argue that his role isn't needed, specially since our last 3 managers used him more than they used Kovacic.

These statistics are devoid of context. The quantity of his contributions is not debatable, the quality certainly is. There is zero point in having the most progressive passes if they are happening too slowly or are passed with poor technique, which is exactly what happens with Jorginho. 

Same issue with Kovacic, one of the best ball carriers and most press-resistant players in the league but it's all for naught when he can't pull off simple through-balls around the box and isn't a genuine goal threat.

One of the reasons why this is important is because the point of a regista/deep-lying playmaker is to allow players sufficient time on the ball to do what they need to do. When you look at statistical measures like xG or xA they only look at probability from position, and don't quantify the amount of time the player has on the ball in that shooting/assisting position. Jorginho - and our whole midfield, tbh - doesn't get the ball in good positions for players like like Pulisic or Hudson-Odoi to attempt dribbles and break the opponent's shape, nor does he get the ball quickly to overloading WBs/wingers.

All of the above leads to one glaring error in our system, that our attackers end up with 'rushed' chances in comparison to other teams, and this contributes heavily to our profligacy.

 

 

Edited June 15, 2021 by SydneyChelsea

[Gol15]

58 minutes ago, SydneyChelsea said:

These statistics are devoid of context. The quantity of his contributions is not debatable, the quality certainly is. There is zero point in having the most progressive passes if they are happening too slowly or are passed with poor technique, which is exactly what happens with Jorginho. 

Same issue with Kovacic, one of the best ball carriers and most press-resistant players in the league but it's all for naught when he can't pull off simple through-balls around the box and isn't a genuine goal threat.

One of the reasons why this is important is because the point of a regista/deep-lying playmaker is to allow players sufficient time on the ball to do what they need to do. When you look at statistical measures like xG or xA they only look at probability from position, and don't quantify the amount of time the player has on the ball in that shooting/assisting position. Jorginho - and our whole midfield, tbh - doesn't get the ball in good positions for players like like Pulisic or Hudson-Odoi to attempt dribbles and break the opponent's shape, nor does he get the ball quickly to overloading WBs/wingers.

All of the above leads to one glaring error in our system, that our attackers end up with 'rushed' chances in comparison to other teams, and this contributes heavily to our profligacy.

 

 

Now I'm not really 100% convinced at the main issue that our lack of finishing chances comes from slow passes or poor passes. If it did though, Jorginho isn't the player making the last pass most of the time unless he's making a long range pass and he has had some good long range passes and some bad ones over the span of these 3 seasons so I would say he could have done better but he's definitely not at fault for strikers missing the chances they missed, not directly at least - there was a great video from some seasons ago that answered the question why Jorginho had 0 assists that season despite being our top passer and it's definitely not because he was passing slowly/poorly. Kovacic and Kante on the other hand were so many times in a good position and with tons of space ahead of them to create something but they simply didn't manage to be a bigger threat so my whole point was to simply say that if Jorginho is seen as redundant, how come nobody is making the same argument for Kovacic and Kante specially when they with more space couldn't really break the defensive lines of the smaller teams we have played?

So if we can point to the fact that not only our DM but also our CMs haven't been good enough against the smaller teams, does that make a case that if we had a CM that is simply going to worry about organizing the attack and that can make the last pass, that it would be enough of an improvement for us while Jorginho's job would basically be his same job, to keep possession and take it back while this new CM wouldn't need to worry that much about it in a similar fashion as Kante doesn't need to worry about covering an area when he can do his own thing and cover every possible area freely while he reads the game?

 

 

 

[big blue]

Just out of curiosity, what is it that those would swap Jorginho for Rice, think are ways Rice would improve us against low blocks? Not sure if this is more of a twitter opinion, than one on here. 

We have seen Jorginho play well in this system against the big teams, but as a team we have struggled against teams that sit deep. So if we are looking for an upgrade in centre midfield, what is it about Rice's game that will see us beat these sides? 

Under Lampard, we were very open at times, and seeing get completely dominated in midfield against City and Leicester, I was all for another defensive, more physical presence to play alongside Kante. 

Since Tuchel has come in and implemented his system, and switching to a back 3, I dont really see centre midfield as a big problem area. 

I can understand how having someone like Saul next to Kante would be beneficial, as he offers more threat going forward, and can shoot well from distance, and he has a skill set that is different to what we have now. 

Im just struggling to see how bringing in Rice or an Ndidi type player would actually garner better results against the teams we struggle against, unless we are playing switching to a back 4, which could be an option, but we have just won Europes biggest prize using that system. 

I think i would be looking at a Kante deputy, someone that would be happy to back up Kante for a couple of seasons, and with a similar skillset, or I would want someone like Saul for the reasons mentioned above. Rice for big money, to play alongside Kante doesnt do it for me. 

[Deino]

7 hours ago, big blue said:

Just out of curiosity, what is it that those would swap Jorginho for Rice, think are ways Rice would improve us against low blocks? Not sure if this is more of a twitter opinion, than one on here. 

We have seen Jorginho play well in this system against the big teams, but as a team we have struggled against teams that sit deep. So if we are looking for an upgrade in centre midfield, what is it about Rice's game that will see us beat these sides? 

Under Lampard, we were very open at times, and seeing get completely dominated in midfield against City and Leicester, I was all for another defensive, more physical presence to play alongside Kante. 

Since Tuchel has come in and implemented his system, and switching to a back 3, I dont really see centre midfield as a big problem area. 

I can understand how having someone like Saul next to Kante would be beneficial, as he offers more threat going forward, and can shoot well from distance, and he has a skill set that is different to what we have now. 

Im just struggling to see how bringing in Rice or an Ndidi type player would actually garner better results against the teams we struggle against, unless we are playing switching to a back 4, which could be an option, but we have just won Europes biggest prize using that system. 

I think i would be looking at a Kante deputy, someone that would be happy to back up Kante for a couple of seasons, and with a similar skillset, or I would want someone like Saul for the reasons mentioned above. Rice for big money, to play alongside Kante doesnt do it for me. 

For me, I see Rice as a Matic upgrade that was needed years ago. Defensively someone that can do the basics whilst at the same time be mobile enough to get back, win the ball and ping a pass upfield to get a fast break.

Jorginho does his job well. He facilitates the transition and reads the game fairly well but he is severely limited in terms of physicality. He has all the weaknesses of Fabregas but barely any of the strengths and even then Conte used Fabregas as more of a supersub role.

We won the CL on the back of a Kante monster performance. Can't expect Kante to play like that every game due to the sheer number of games we will have next season.

Is it harsh to replace Jorginho after a CL winning run? Yes, but we need to upgrade the squad if Tuchel wants to have a chance of winning the league and Jorginho looks like the weak link for me.

[big blue]

3 hours ago, Deino said:

For me, I see Rice as a Matic upgrade that was needed years ago. Defensively someone that can do the basics whilst at the same time be mobile enough to get back, win the ball and ping a pass upfield to get a fast break.

Jorginho does his job well. He facilitates the transition and reads the game fairly well but he is severely limited in terms of physicality. He has all the weaknesses of Fabregas but barely any of the strengths and even then Conte used Fabregas as more of a supersub role.

We won the CL on the back of a Kante monster performance. Can't expect Kante to play like that every game due to the sheer number of games we will have next season.

Is it harsh to replace Jorginho after a CL winning run? Yes, but we need to upgrade the squad if Tuchel wants to have a chance of winning the league and Jorginho looks like the weak link for me.

If Conte was here I would 100% agree. Kante and Rice in that Conte setup would be perfect. Just not sure I like that combination for how we build up under Tuchel. 

I think we would lack that playmaker, and we will struggle to be slick playing out from the back, anf beating the press to hurt the bigger sides. 

Jorginho is much better defensively than Fabregas though, both look like they are running through treacle though! Jorginho's passing has been the main disappointment for me admittedly. 

I dont really see him as a weak link, anymore than i would Rudiger, Christiensen, or Werner. We could probably improve on them, but they have also shown enough quality to stick with longer in my opinion. 

I believe we can win the league with the same team, if Werner and Havertz have an improved 2nd season.

[Deino]

1 hour ago, big blue said:

If Conte was here I would 100% agree. Kante and Rice in that Conte setup would be perfect. Just not sure I like that combination for how we build up under Tuchel. 

I think we would lack that playmaker, and we will struggle to be slick playing out from the back, anf beating the press to hurt the bigger sides. 

Jorginho is much better defensively than Fabregas though, both look like they are running through treacle though! Jorginho's passing has been the main disappointment for me admittedly. 

I dont really see him as a weak link, anymore than i would Rudiger, Christiensen, or Werner. We could probably improve on them, but they have also shown enough quality to stick with longer in my opinion. 

I believe we can win the league with the same team, if Werner and Havertz have an improved 2nd season.

From today's showing, I'd take Pogba to replace Jorginho. He fits Kante so well

[big blue]

34 minutes ago, Deino said:

From today's showing, I'd take Pogba to replace Jorginho. He fits Kante so well

He was class. Crazy that Pogba and kante have never lost a game together, 28 games now. 

Always rated Pogba, and was pretty gutted we missed out on him, but I think that ship has sailed. He seems to miss a fair few games with injury, and he has a lot of baggage aswell.

If we were getting the France version, motivated and fit, then it would be a no brainer.

[Bob stark]

This discussion for finding new dm  comes down to the fact that we can afford players who offer what Jorginho does and more. 

 

 

[Bob stark]

On 14/06/2021 at 10:35, SydneyChelsea said:

 

I think our midfield situation is sort of like when we had the likes of or Pedro/Willian - jack of most trades, master of none

 

I disagree with your statement. I personally loved pedro and Willian. Two very2 good wingers who did their job very2 well. I don't think you can wingers that is as good defensively as these two and still provide offensive contribution. 

[Chris Gundleton]

If we are serious at going for the league then we need to replace Jorginho.  Titles we have won with him whilst he has been here, the Europa and CL.  If ever a player is suited for European football it is him.  I won't knock his attitude but unfortunately too limited for the Prem.  I always base my views on when my son grows up and asks "what was Jorginho like?" as I do with my dad on players from the 50s and 60s.  I'd say "great in Europe, crap in the league, but I liked him but was sold at the right time" - hopefully......

[Gol15]

9 hours ago, Chris Gundleton said:

If we are serious at going for the league then we need to replace Jorginho.  Titles we have won with him whilst he has been here, the Europa and CL.  If ever a player is suited for European football it is him.  I won't knock his attitude but unfortunately too limited for the Prem.  I always base my views on when my son grows up and asks "what was Jorginho like?" as I do with my dad on players from the 50s and 60s.  I'd say "great in Europe, crap in the league, but I liked him but was sold at the right time" - hopefully......

I find it very strange that as soon as this talk comes up it's somehow always just 1 player that is put in question. The reality is that had Jorginho signed for Man City he would have already multiple PL titles so maybe we should look at some other positions...

Can T.Silva play most PL games and if not do we sign a new quality CB that could make a difference from finishing top 4 and challenging for the PL title?

Are our wingers consistent enough, are our strikers good enough...? 

[Deino]

1 hour ago, Gol15 said:

Are our wingers consistent enough, are our strikers good enough...? 

Honestly, it's going to be hard to criticize our wingers considering they are either new to the league or still young or both. Timo just started in the PL so I can give him some slack though it's running super thin now.

I can admit that scapegoating Jorginho is easier because he's already the finished article and there is no foreseeable way he can elevate his game any longer. The standard people judge Jorginho on is considerably low already. We hope he recycles the ball well, isn't outmuscled as easily and he plays a good game. 

On the other hand, a lot of fans expect Timo to score 30+ goals because of the transfer fee when in reality Jorginho costs more than Timo.

[charierre]

2 hours ago, Gol15 said:

I find it very strange that as soon as this talk comes up it's somehow always just 1 player that is put in question. The reality is that had Jorginho signed for Man City he would have already multiple PL titles so maybe we should look at some other positions...

Can T.Silva play most PL games and if not do we sign a new quality CB that could make a difference from finishing top 4 and challenging for the PL title?

Are our wingers consistent enough, are our strikers good enough...? 

Was this fact gained by Tarot, Runes or Tealeaves? Nobody knows how he would have done at City, could have just made their already fragile defence even more susceptible. If we're working on alternative theories Chelsea may have signed a different player and we could have had multiple PL titles. 

[Gol15]

7 minutes ago, charierre said:

Was this fact gained by Tarot, Runes or Tealeaves? Nobody knows how he would have done at City, could have just made their already fragile defence even more susceptible. If we're working on alternative theories Chelsea may have signed a different player and we could have had multiple PL titles. 

Consider that Sarri could have picked any player and he picked Jorginho so if not for that signing we wouldn't have finished top 3 in that first and only season with Sarri.

Jorginho in that first season dominated in his role, there is no indication that it would have been anything different if he went to play the same role for Pep and Man City.

Edited June 16, 2021 by Gol15

[Gol15]

1 hour ago, Deino said:

Honestly, it's going to be hard to criticize our wingers considering they are either new to the league or still young or both. Timo just started in the PL so I can give him some slack though it's running super thin now.

I can admit that scapegoating Jorginho is easier because he's already the finished article and there is no foreseeable way he can elevate his game any longer. The standard people judge Jorginho on is considerably low already. We hope he recycles the ball well, isn't outmuscled as easily and he plays a good game. 

On the other hand, a lot of fans expect Timo to score 30+ goals because of the transfer fee when in reality Jorginho costs more than Timo.

Jorginho was bought as an already established player and for a specific role and he has done his role well in all 3 seasons for us, it was a rare good signing at the time, Jorginho was our top passer in his first season and it didn't look like he needed any time to adapt to the PL at all.

In comparison Werner scored over 30 goals in Bundesliga and that's why he was bought so clearly he didn't do his role for us in the first season.

[charierre]

12 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

Consider that Sarri could have picked any player and he picked Jorginho so if not for that signing we wouldn't have finished top 3 in that first and only season with Sarri.

Jorginho in that first season dominated in his role, there is no indication that it would have been anything different if he went to play the same role for Pep and Man City.

Mystic Gol

[Gol15]

2 minutes ago, charierre said:

Mystic Gol

Not the slightest, he was the main reason why Sarri could transform our counter attacking team into a possession based team so thinking that he wouldn't manage in Man City, in a team that has been a heavy possesion based team doesn't really sound like a rational theory to me.

Adding Jorginho to that Man City team wouldn't suddenly make them any less of the best team in the league that year so thinking that the reason why we didn't win the PL is because of Jorginho is pretty laughable, we have had much bigger problems than our midfield in the previous years and we had several young players that needed some time to grow while we were rebuilding.

[charierre]

22 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

Not the slightest, he was the main reason why Sarri could transform our counter attacking team into a possession based team so thinking that he wouldn't manage in Man City, in a team that has been a heavy possesion based team doesn't really sound like a rational theory to me.

Adding Jorginho to that Man City team wouldn't suddenly make them any less of the best team in the league that year so thinking that the reason why we didn't win the PL is because of Jorginho is pretty laughable, we have had much bigger problems than our midfield in the previous years and we had several young players that needed some time to grow while we were 

 

 

In other words your spouting bollocks again. No amount of reasoning can predict the future. Theory may sound good but it can never be fact till it happens.

[ForeverCarefree]

22 hours ago, Deino said:

From today's showing, I'd take Pogba to replace Jorginho. He fits Kante so well

Based on the Italian performances in the tournament their number 8 looks pretty good so far.