The ONLY negative element to his game is probably his physical qualities; which has undoubtedly led to mistakes that have cost us goals. His role is to intercept and recycle the ball on to the more aggressive players. He gives you a constant third man. He's not there to play defence splitting passes, smash people off the ball, assist or even score goals. His purpose is ball retention and clever defensive play, which is why he gets completely overlooked and people would rather focus on his 1 bad game than his other 10 consistent games. He's also a leader. 

Interestingly I think there are only two players I can think of who would be ahead of Jorginho in that 'style' of player; Veratti and Kimmich. Both of which have his technical abilities but who also have that physicality.

21 minutes ago, thebluekid said:

The ONLY negative element to his game is probably his physical qualities; which has undoubtedly led to mistakes that have cost us goals. His role is to intercept and recycle the ball on to the more aggressive players. He gives you a constant third man. He's not there to play defence splitting passes, smash people off the ball, assist or even score goals. His purpose is ball retention and clever defensive play, which is why he gets completely overlooked and people would rather focus on his 1 bad game than his other 10 consistent games. He's also a leader. 

Interestingly I think there are only two players I can think of who would be ahead of Jorginho in that 'style' of player; Veratti and Kimmich. Both of which have his technical abilities but who also have that physicality.

I can add quite a few more; Casemiro, Valverde, Goretzka, De Jong, Fabinho 

2 hours ago, ducavis said:

I can add quite a few more; Casemiro, Valverde, Goretzka, De Jong, Fabinho 

And not one of them would be in the bracket of midfielders you’d place Jorginho in. 

17 minutes ago, thebluekid said:

And not one of them would be in the bracket of midfielders you’d place Jorginho in. 

Exactly. They're a couple of brackets above.

13 minutes ago, Spiller86 said:

Exactly. They're a couple of brackets above.

Whether they’re better players is irrelevant. They have different roles. It’s like comparing Frank Lampard to Scholes; one being an attacking, goal scoring midfielder; the other being a deep-lying playmaker. Who is the better player? Lampard is better at scoring goals, Scholes is better at pinging a pass in to a bucket from 50 yards.

7 minutes ago, thebluekid said:

Whether they’re better players is irrelevant. They have different roles. It’s like comparing Frank Lampard to Scholes; one being an attacking, goal scoring midfielder; the other being a deep-lying playmaker. Who is the better player? Lampard is better at scoring goals, Scholes is better at pinging a pass in to a bucket from 50 yards.

Let's not go through the misunderstood regista routine for the 100th time over the past three years. Do yourself a favour and read @SydneyChelsea from a few weeks back. He describes Jorginho perfectly. He is a system player, no less, no more.

All of those players @ducavislisted could play Jorginho's role with aplomb. They have more to offer so they play extra roles as well. He suits the way Italy play well, he suits the way Tuchel plays well, but please let's not slip into hyperbole about him.

19 minutes ago, Spiller86 said:

Let's not go through the misunderstood regista routine for the 100th time over the past three years. Do yourself a favour and read @SydneyChelsea from a few weeks back. He describes Jorginho perfectly. He is a system player, no less, no more.

All of those players @ducavislisted could play Jorginho's role with aplomb. They have more to offer so they play extra roles as well. He suits the way Italy play well, he suits the way Tuchel plays well, but please let's not slip into hyperbole about him.

For the sake of both of our sanity, okay. However, let’s see how he performs next season. He’s having a great Euro’s and I think he is developing.

5 hours ago, thebluekid said:

 

1) Go and study the game a bit from a midfielder's perspective (focusing on the modern game);

2) Watching him without your 'anti-Jorginho' specs on.

I don't think you can actually suggest to those who dislike Jorginho to the level of wanting him out every season what to do... Their opinion is in their bloodstream and carved on their hearts, even if we win the PL next season they will still simply want Jorginho to be sold.

Trust me I saw the evolution of their view, it started from the opinion that he's terrible along with Sarri and they're currently at the opinion of that we won't ever win the PL with him, between the first take and the last one there was also the one about how the Europa league is a small tournament and that we'll never win anything big with him so no matter what he does the goal posts just keep changing in order for the same opinion to stay alive.

 

2 hours ago, Spiller86 said:

Let's not go through the misunderstood regista routine for the 100th time over the past three years. Do yourself a favour and read @SydneyChelsea from a few weeks back. He describes Jorginho perfectly. He is a system player, no less, no more.

All of those players @ducavislisted could play Jorginho's role with aplomb. They have more to offer so they play extra roles as well. He suits the way Italy play well, he suits the way Tuchel plays well, but please let's not slip into hyperbole about him.

De Jong would be another one of those players misunderstood/constantly critised playing that role in this league.

Even forgetting Jorginho, look at how Thiago Alcantara is being slated to high heaven less than a year after being the heartbeat of one of the best club sides in recent times.

Edited June 28, 20215 yr by Argo

2 hours ago, Spiller86 said:

Let's not go through the misunderstood regista routine for the 100th time over the past three years. Do yourself a favour and read @SydneyChelsea from a few weeks back. He describes Jorginho perfectly. He is a system player, no less, no more.

All of those players @ducavislisted could play Jorginho's role with aplomb. They have more to offer so they play extra roles as well. He suits the way Italy play well, he suits the way Tuchel plays well, but please let's not slip into hyperbole about him.

You mean the post where he, among other things said this?

"There is zero point in having the most progressive passes if they are happening too slowly or are passed with poor technique, which is exactly what happens with Jorginho."

If so I have barely read anything wider of the mark. Jorginho poor passing-technique and a slow passer? Think you'd struggle to find one manager in football that agreed with that.

 

 

2 hours ago, Sindre said:

You mean the post where he, among other things said this?

"There is zero point in having the most progressive passes if they are happening too slowly or are passed with poor technique, which is exactly what happens with Jorginho."

If so I have barely read anything wider of the mark. Jorginho poor passing-technique and a slow passer? Think you'd struggle to find one manager in football that agreed with that.

 

 

 

Jorginho has completed the most passes, tackles and interceptions for Italy so far at Euro, same thing for us in the CL campaign under Tuchel/Lampard...

If I'm to expand on that, last season in the PL under Lampard most progressive passes, passes into the final third, interceptions and 2nd in tackles behind Dave, season before that (his first one under Sarri) he was best in the league when it came down to progressive passes and passes into the final third. This means that he is arguably the best signing of that summer 2018/19 since he has been doing his role at the highest level pretty consistently for the past 3 seasons and with him we transformed from being a counter-attacking team to a possession-based team. With all that I can only conclude that Jorginho has been a good signing for us overall.

Now after Tuchel has done a lot in minimal time I can safely say that our defense and midfield is stable but the question remains if our attack can become consistent enough for us to challenge Man City for the league title...

A lot of focus around here is on our midfield but if our attack doesn't finish off teams that only focus on defending then maybe the problem is actually our attack not being clinical enough. We had 736 shots in total, 546 on target and we scored 58 goals in the league which is a conversion rate of 7,9%. We're 13th in the league by looking at our conversion rate, only Liverpool is close as the 12th.
Our goals scored mean that we're 8th, the other top 4 teams that finished above us in the league table are, you guessed it, among the top 3 when it comes down to goals scored.
We're top 3 when it comes down to total shots and shots on target, lucky for us that Tuchel fixed our defensive problems because despite the fact that Liverpool had the most big chances missed as a team adding Salah and Mane missing tons of chances they still managed to have a better conversion rate than us and their tactic doesn't involve their midfield creating chances or assisting goals.

So it looks like there is an elephant in the room - many are still focused on Jorginho but if Werner and Havertz don't score more goals for us next season we're not going to be able to challenge for the league title.

Edited June 28, 20215 yr by Gol15

Story on the Chelsea website that Jorginho is possibly going to Norwich on loan. Apparently because of his age and to try and toughen him up a bit.

Be interesting to see how he does there.

3 hours ago, just said:

Story on the Chelsea website that Jorginho is possibly going to Norwich on loan. Apparently because of his age and to try and toughen him up a bit.

Be interesting to see how he does there.

Haha any chance they have a great sprint coach at Norwich?

8 hours ago, Sindre said:

You mean the post where he, among other things said this?

"There is zero point in having the most progressive passes if they are happening too slowly or are passed with poor technique, which is exactly what happens with Jorginho."

If so I have barely read anything wider of the mark. Jorginho poor passing-technique and a slow passer? Think you'd struggle to find one manager in football that agreed with that.

I thought he provided a very solid evidence base for his technique comments, not unlike the comments that Seb Chapuis (does he count as a manager) has been making for 3 seasons. 

Read Fabregas' comments also on Jorginho and taking a slower option, sideways or backwards rather than turning and taking a forward option when available. Many of these passes also aren't about positioning the players next pass (find Saul's comments on Busquets for a proper regista approach) but simply rotating possession. None of this is to say that he is rubbish just that he is effective in certain systems that suit his style. No more, no less.

23 hours ago, thebluekid said:

The ONLY negative element to his game is probably his physical qualities; which has undoubtedly led to mistakes that have cost us goals. His role is to intercept and recycle the ball on to the more aggressive players. He gives you a constant third man. He's not there to play defence splitting passes, smash people off the ball, assist or even score goals. His purpose is ball retention and clever defensive play, which is why he gets completely overlooked and people would rather focus on his 1 bad game than his other 10 consistent games. He's also a leader. 

Interestingly I think there are only two players I can think of who would be ahead of Jorginho in that 'style' of player; Veratti and Kimmich. Both of which have his technical abilities but who also have that physicality.

I keep reading the same post over and over again. Jorginho job is just to recycle possession. He does this very well so he is very good. And when people compare him, they like to compare him to veratti, thiago,xabi alonso not to the like of Fabinho, matic, Mikel although his role is much2 closer to the 2nd group than the 1st.

 

 

 

 

8 hours ago, Spiller86 said:

None of this is to say that he is rubbish just that he is effective in certain systems that suit his style. No more, no less.

It is actually more than this. Right now he is the ONLY holder that we have.

Jorginho is a very2 curious case,  he is a limited player and imo easily replaceable yet a lot people consider him to be nailed down starter or important player. That is the crazy part. 

 

3 hours ago, Bob stark said:

It is actually more than this. Right now he is the ONLY holder that we have.

Jorginho is a very2 curious case,  he is a limited player and imo easily replaceable yet a lot people consider him to be nailed down starter or important player. That is the crazy part. 

 

Agreed. Arguably the player that has most divided opinion in my time following the club. The thing that makes me laugh is that Mikel had many more strings to his bow than Jorginho and he was almost universally called sh*t when he was here. He was in everyone's sell list every season on here for 6 seasons.

1 hour ago, Spiller86 said:

at Mikel

Mikel was also forever underappreciated. Excellent defensive midfielder.

Big part in our CL-win in 2012, as Jorginho was it in 2021.

19 hours ago, Argo said:

De Jong would be another one of those players misunderstood/constantly critised playing that role in this league.

Even forgetting Jorginho, look at how Thiago Alcantara is being slated to high heaven less than a year after being the heartbeat of one of the best club sides in recent times.

I don't understand what Barcelona have done with De Jong to be honest. At Ajax he spread passes all around the pitch and was a genuine goal threat from midfield. At Barcelona he's been Busquets in attack and Iniesta in defence. I wonder if he's better suited to a quicker, counter-attacking team.

I haven't seen Thiago being slated for his attacking contribution, mainly for his inability to stay fit. But as an example of technical ability in that role he is far, far above Jorginho. There are little things, such as the quality of his passes to feet/space, his body positioning when receiving a ball, the number of touches he requires to turn etc. that are areas Jorginho really needs to improve to become a better contributor to our midfield's effectiveness.

Jorginho, to his credit, stays fitter and is consistently available and can do a job tactically even if it's not his preferred option. 

 

19 hours ago, Sindre said:

You mean the post where he, among other things said this?

"There is zero point in having the most progressive passes if they are happening too slowly or are passed with poor technique, which is exactly what happens with Jorginho."

If so I have barely read anything wider of the mark. Jorginho poor passing-technique and a slow passer? Think you'd struggle to find one manager in football that agreed with that.

 

 

There's more to data analysis than looking at a number and going "yep, he does a lot of those so he must be good at it". Statistics measure quantity but merely infer quality. They don't tell you the difference between a pass received on the bounce at chest height, and a pass received right on the foot. They don't tell you the difference between a pass made after two touches and a pass made after three touches. Jorginho does a lot of the right things but not at a standard we need if we want to improve our attacking game. The same goes for Kovacic, except that he is even less potent with his passing in the final third.

Jorginho and Kovacic have been wonderful servants but if we want to actually be at the top table competing for the League and CL on a consistent basis then we need to see players like them as the baseline to improve upon, not the centrepiece of our midfield.

7 hours ago, Bob stark said:

It is actually more than this. Right now he is the ONLY holder that we have.

Jorginho is a very2 curious case,  he is a limited player and imo easily replaceable yet a lot people consider him to be nailed down starter or important player. That is the crazy part. 

 

As the only holder that we have obviously he would be vital for us as he has been so you're contradicting yourself there, there is nothing crazy about him being important for us when there is nobody that does what he does for us.

If Jorgi wins the Euros with Italy after winning the CL with us could you lot perhaps all stop your f**king moaning and whinging about him for at very least a day or two?

144 pages of the same argument. Just give up, you’re obviously not changing your opinion on him!

3 hours ago, SydneyChelsea said:

I don't understand what Barcelona have done with De Jong to be honest. At Ajax he spread passes all around the pitch and was a genuine goal threat from midfield. At Barcelona he's been Busquets in attack and Iniesta in defence. I wonder if he's better suited to a quicker, counter-attacking team.

I haven't seen Thiago being slated for his attacking contribution, mainly for his inability to stay fit. But as an example of technical ability in that role he is far, far above Jorginho. There are little things, such as the quality of his passes to feet/space, his body positioning when receiving a ball, the number of touches he requires to turn etc. that are areas Jorginho really needs to improve to become a better contributor to our midfield's effectiveness.

Jorginho, to his credit, stays fitter and is consistently available and can do a job tactically even if it's not his preferred option. 

 

There's more to data analysis than looking at a number and going "yep, he does a lot of those so he must be good at it". Statistics measure quantity but merely infer quality. They don't tell you the difference between a pass received on the bounce at chest height, and a pass received right on the foot. They don't tell you the difference between a pass made after two touches and a pass made after three touches. Jorginho does a lot of the right things but not at a standard we need if we want to improve our attacking game. The same goes for Kovacic, except that he is even less potent with his passing in the final third.

Jorginho and Kovacic have been wonderful servants but if we want to actually be at the top table competing for the League and CL on a consistent basis then we need to see players like them as the baseline to improve upon, not the centrepiece of our midfield.

It’s amazing isn’t it. Italians who have been graced with some of the finest midfielders to have played the game are infatuated by Jorginho; almost as if he is their talisman. The reason why they have gone on such a run apparently. Praised for his immense leadership and very solid personality. 
 

He could go on to win the Euro’s as well as being a European Champion; heck, even a world champion in January. Yet to some here he’s a ‘stepping stone’ player. 
 

Fact is, if he played for Man City, Liverpool or any top European side, certain opinions on him would change. 
 

*disclaimer: I’m not stating he’s world class; just that he offers a great service to the team. If we’d have had someone who could put the ball in the net last season he’d have been a Premier League champion as well. 

 

6 hours ago, Spiller86 said:

Agreed. Arguably the player that has most divided opinion in my time following the club. The thing that makes me laugh is that Mikel had many more strings to his bow than Jorginho and he was almost universally called sh*t when he was here. He was in everyone's sell list every season on here for 6 seasons.

By far. IMO he is basically a good player, read the game very2 well, very2 limited physically and technically. A rotational player at best for Chelsea level but we don't have any holder, so you kinda need to play him. 

Yet lots of people think he is nailed down starter, some think he is a dpl. Some think he is wc. 

 

 

2 hours ago, Gol15 said:

As the only holder that we have obviously he would be vital for us as he has been so you're contradicting yourself there, there is nothing crazy about him being important for us when there is nobody that does what he does for us.

Not really, kante - kova are good pairing there is a slight drop off due to those two lack of awareness of being the holder but their mobility and versatility offer something different. 

 

 

2 minutes ago, Bob stark said:

Not really, kante - kova are good pairing there is a slight drop off due to those two lack of awareness of being the holder but their mobility and versatility offer something different. 

 

 

You keep contradicting yourself, really.

7 hours ago, thebluekid said:

It’s amazing isn’t it. Italians who have been graced with some of the finest midfielders to have played the game are infatuated by Jorginho; almost as if he is their talisman. The reason why they have gone on such a run apparently. Praised for his immense leadership and very solid personality. 
 

He could go on to win the Euro’s as well as being a European Champion; heck, even a world champion in January. Yet to some here he’s a ‘stepping stone’ player. 
 

It wouldn't change a thing - international football is Championship level at best, the players are exhuasted and the coaching is rubbish. His role with Italy is also markedly different in that they have players like Locatelli, Barella and Veratti who should much if not all the attacking burden.

At Chelsea we need Jorginho to be creative against deeper defenses and he simply doesn't move the ball fast or well enough to do that. I don't have a lot of issues with Jorginho defensively but if we're going to have a player who is unable to contribute meaningfully in attack then we might as well replace him with a much more defensively-sound player. Same goes for Kovacic.  

Quote

Fact is, if he played for Man City, Liverpool or any top European side, certain opinions on him would change. 
 

*disclaimer: I’m not stating he’s world class; just that he offers a great service to the team. If we’d have had someone who could put the ball in the net last season he’d have been a Premier League champion as well. 

He doesn't play for those sides, for a reason - they don't think he's good enough. So yes, opinions would probably change because he'd be a different type of player.