34 minutes ago, drjonesy1994 said:

Hasn’t he been sent back to Chelsea? I thought I saw that they sent him home after the play offs. Mancini said something about them having a good relationship with Chelsea and Chelsea asked he not be used unnceccsarily. 

Hopefully he is able to clear his head quickly. He was a mess after Italy lost.

Poor game from him last night. Yes, he made the pass for Havertz goal but that was it. Partly at fault for their first goal and Benzema should have scored from his failed sliding back pass. I said in the match thread early, forward passes are a rarity from him. Way to conservative with his passing and vision. He slows our play down more than any other player. He is 31 this year and a decision needs to be made on him when the takeover is complete.

24 minutes ago, just said:

Poor game from him last night. Yes, he made the pass for Havertz goal but that was it. Partly at fault for their first goal and Benzema should have scored from his failed sliding back pass. I said in the match thread early, forward passes are a rarity from him. Way to conservative with his passing and vision. He slows our play down more than any other player. He is 31 this year and a decision needs to be made on him when the takeover is complete.

Wasn't good. But he was also left completely stranded by Kante who was absolutely shocking. Hooking Kante at half-time is usually unheard of but yesterday it had to be done.

 

19 minutes ago, Sindre said:

Wasn't good. But he was also left completely stranded by Kante who was absolutely shocking. Hooking Kante at half-time is usually unheard of but yesterday it had to be done.

 

Steve McManaman said on BT Sport at the start of the second half he was surprised Kante was hooked over Jorginho. I was too. 

There was so much wrong with Jorginho's game yesterday, apart from the ball to Havertz, it was so sloooow and sideways. In the first half a massive space opened up on the edge of the Madrid box but rather than step into it and force the defenders to make a decision, he dithered, did a sharp right turn and passed sideways to Kante who was already marked. Second period on the break he had the ball in the middle of our half with Ziyech in acres of space out wide right screaming for the ball. Jorginho saw him, dithered again, carried the ball about 5 yards slowly and then decided to try the pass which by then was covered by a Real player. You could then clearly see Ziyech berating him for how slow and tentative Jorginho had been. Those are just two examples. He really does slow us down.

I hope we shake up our midfield for next season Sindre. I'd like to see Jorginho sold and probably RLC too. Bring back Gallagher and Gilmour (he isn't scared to hit those early forward balls), and bring in a Rice / Bissouma / Touchameni. Let's try and add some of the pace, dynamism, vision and physicality which Jorginho does not give us. Personally I would keep Kante but would expect to him have much more of a back-up role. However, Kante may not want that, and if PSG or another to club are prepared to pay top dollar for him then it would make sense to consider that.

1 minute ago, just said:

hope we shake up our midfield for next season Sindre. I'd like to see Jorginho sold and probably RLC too. Bring back Gallagher and Gilmour (he isn't scared to hit those early forward balls), and bring in a Rice / Bissouma / Touchameni. Let's try and add some of the pace, dynamism, vision and physicality which Jorginho does not give us. Personally I would keep Kante but would expect to him have much more of a back-up role. However, Kante may not want that, and if PSG or another to club are prepared to pay top dollar for him then it would make sense to consider that.

This I very much agree with just. I think a massive revamp is needed and personally I would be prepared to sell all three of Jorginho, Kante and RLC. Probably Gilmour too as his contract is running down and I doubt he's renewing. Bring in as much money as possible and then take our time to reinvest that wisely. Gallagher is already coming in as you mentioned and will become a top player in my opinion. We would definitly need to bring in a few midfielders in that kind of scenario though but I think it would be unwise to renew an ageing Jorginho and Kante at this point. 

 

 

5 minutes ago, Sindre said:

This I very much agree with just. I think a massive revamp is needed and personally I would be prepared to sell all three of Jorginho, Kante and RLC. Probably Gilmour too as his contract is running down and I doubt he's renewing. Bring in as much money as possible and then take our time to reinvest that wisely. Gallagher is already coming in as you mentioned and will become a top player in my opinion. We would definitly need to bring in a few midfielders in that kind of scenario though but I think it would be unwise to renew an ageing Jorginho and Kante at this point. 

 

 

Yep, but I think it would be a mistake to off-load Gilmour without giving him a chance. Some of us voiced the opinion that a loan move was possibly not the right thing for him, particularly to a side that has proven to be one of the worst the EPL has ever seen. Gilmour's passing and vision is at another level IMO, he is not afraid to try the long, early passes we so rarely see from Jorginho. Plus he carries the ball quicker.

2 hours ago, just said:

Poor game from him last night. Yes, he made the pass for Havertz goal but that was it. Partly at fault for their first goal and Benzema should have scored from his failed sliding back pass. I said in the match thread early, forward passes are a rarity from him. Way to conservative with his passing and vision. He slows our play down more than any other player. He is 31 this year and a decision needs to be made on him when the takeover is complete.

I think that your view on Jorginho in the past hasn’t been the best but I take this judgement of yours as an isolated analysis and I can only agree with the most of what you said, mainly with that despite of the assist that he was pretty poor.

Don’t get me wrong I don’t think other players were generally better than Jorginho but given the amount of time he had with the ball, it felt like his style of play was mostly ineffective. WhyI say that is because I have last year’s semi final to compare with and for example Casemiro and Modric while having less possession managed to do their roles better. 

Real Madrid learned a lot from last year and it’s not just Jorginho that fell off but also our forward players, I can argue that the only player that stayed in the same level from last seasons campaign is Havertz because even if he failed to score last year he was dangerous as a false 9 and he continues to cause trouble for Real Madrid’s defense. But the same can’t be said to Pulisic and Mount because both scored last year and in this first leg they looked totally out of their depth, I’m particularly worried about Pulisic since he being our number 10 should mean that he gets the ball often and makes things happen but he looked like an academy player last night.

Our squad looks like we can’t compete, it’s not normal that Tuchel takes out Kante at minute 55’-60’ and then Jorginho min 65’, because both played a massive role in our win last year and Kante was MOTM particularly against Real Madrid and now none could even finish the match. Our press tactic looks as if it wasted the squad and we need to find new midfielders in the summer, Jorginho doesn’t look like he can be our key player anymore and I’m afraid Kante is also in a similar shape.

 

Utter sh*te, embarrassing last night. 

Hoddle moaned that Kante was out of position too much, literally 60 seconds after that modric meandered past Jorginho and Kante sprinted past the useless f**ker to tackle him....that's why he was out of position, he was constantly covering Jorginho. So our 2 man midfield against their 3 was more often 1 against 3. To fix it Tuchel took Kante off.....I mean f**king hell.

Edited April 7, 20224 yr by dkw

Jorgis time is up here and we best do a deal that allows him to return to Italy in the summer, probably to Napoli, given he has a year left on his deal and wants to go back to Italy.

In some cases players get better with age, Modric showed that yesterday especially. Jorgi is not one of those players imo, and neither is Kante. In 3 years I don't expect either of them to be at Modric level, it is arguable they have not been all season. Imo RLC is arguably better than Jorgi right now and Ruben is not very good so...

As @just suggested RLC and Jorgi I would move on for sure, and let Kante know he is seen as a back up and big game player. Someone to further mentor Gallagher who should go right in to our first team with Kovacic and either a Rice or Bissouma or a Gilmour.

If Kante is not happy with that as a top earner and on one year left on his deal I would let him go to.

1 hour ago, axman2526 said:

Jorgis time is up here and we best do a deal that allows him to return to Italy in the summer, probably to Napoli, given he has a year left on his deal and wants to go back to Italy.

In some cases players get better with age, Modric showed that yesterday especially. Jorgi is not one of those players imo, and neither is Kante. In 3 years I don't expect either of them to be at Modric level, it is arguable they have not been all season. Imo RLC is arguably better than Jorgi right now and Ruben is not very good so...

As @just suggested RLC and Jorgi I would move on for sure, and let Kante know he is seen as a back up and big game player. Someone to further mentor Gallagher who should go right in to our first team with Kovacic and either a Rice or Bissouma or a Gilmour.

If Kante is not happy with that as a top earner and on one year left on his deal I would let him go to.

I’m confident that we can get a decent fee for J5 in the summer, the issue is how to finish this season without him and Kante being in a good shape.

Maybe Tuchel can try to start with Kovacic and Saul in the middle and leave Jorghino for the last 15-30 min if we have a lead. I would be ok with benching Kante a few games if that would mean that he comes back strong for a full 90 min match against Arsenal and West Ham because Kante healthy can make a huge difference.

We can’t score, we can’t defend, the goalkeeper doesn’t know he can’t play football, but yeah it’s Jorginho’s fault

Jorginho doesn’t give much defensive cover and yesterday he was easily passed by every Madrid player on the pitch and every ball through. He’s got usually positional awareness, which helps him in the defensive part of his game, but last night he did not even show that. So yeah, he was partly responsible for our defensive woes, though not the only culprit.

10 minutes ago, RMH said:

Jorginho doesn’t give much defensive cover and yesterday he was easily passed by every Madrid player on the pitch and every ball through. He’s got usually positional awareness, which helps him in the defensive part of his game, but last night he did not even show that. So yeah, he was partly responsible for our defensive woes, though not the only culprit.

Partly responsible for sure, but this same tired narrative happens every time we lose, of all of the issues we have people want to fork out an extortionate amount for someone like Declan Rice when we need a CB and players who can score goals. If you replace Jorginho with the best DM in the world we would still be putting out performances like we did last night.

13 minutes ago, timetowaste said:

Partly responsible for sure, but this same tired narrative happens every time we lose, of all of the issues we have people want to fork out an extortionate amount for someone like Declan Rice when we need a CB and players who can score goals. If you replace Jorginho with the best DM in the world we would still be putting out performances like we did last night.

I don’t disagree, I think he is just part of a bigger problem, and the team needs a serious revamp in many positions. But let’s not pretend like he was not a big part in last night's defeat (together with many others).

I don't understand why there are many criticism for jorgi.

Jorgi is not great when he has to really protect his backline, duh this is not new.

Jorgi can't bring the ball forward when he is afforded space, duh you see this everygame.

Jorgi does not have the passing range +  power to deliver constatnt dangerous pass to accelerate the game duh.

With Jorgi it is very simple, what you can expect is a very good player at defending small area, he will work hard, he will make many sideway pass to keep possesion deep, done.

When his partner struggle, you can't expect jorgi to bail them out. He does not have the athleticism nor the technical skill to do so.

5 hours ago, Bob stark said:

I don't understand why there are many criticism for jorgi.

 

Well,let's see why...

5 hours ago, Bob stark said:

 

Jorgi is not great when he has to really protect his backline, duh this is not new.

Jorgi can't bring the ball forward when he is afforded space, duh you see this everygame.

Jorgi does not have the passing range +  power to deliver constatnt dangerous pass to accelerate the game duh.

. He does not have the athleticism nor the technical skill to do so.

Probably that's why....

1 hour ago, dkw said:

Well,let's see why...

Probably that's why....

But that has been the case pretty much 90% of his game. When he was in good form,  he gave us more but in general this is what you get.

9 hours ago, Bob stark said:

I don't understand why there are many criticism for jorgi.

Jorgi is not great when he has to really protect his backline, duh this is not new.

Jorgi can't bring the ball forward when he is afforded space, duh you see this everygame.

Jorgi does not have the passing range +  power to deliver constatnt dangerous pass to accelerate the game duh.

With Jorgi it is very simple, what you can expect is a very good player at defending small area, he will work hard, he will make many sideway pass to keep possesion deep, done.

When his partner struggle, you can't expect jorgi to bail them out. He does not have the athleticism nor the technical skill to do so.

Are you having a conversation with yourself there Bob?

I thought both Jorginho and Kante were terrible against Real Madrid, and it wasn't because of their ability on the ball, it was their positional discipline. The pair of them were pressing far too high up the field, I don't think I have seen Jorginho play that high before. Positional discipline has been a major plus point of Jorginho since Tuchel came in, so it was shocking to see it fall apart against Real Madrid.

Jorginho's form has fallen off badly again. He was great for a lot of the season and I had him as our player of the season after Silva, but since Feb, he hasn't been anywhere near as good. He doesn't seem capable of having a good season from start to finish.

My worry for the rest of the season is that without him in the side, we never win the midfield battle. Kovacic and Kante are good individual players, but I am not really a fan of them together, I never have been. Neither of them really control a midfield, they are all action midfielders. You need a calm head next to one of them, which would usually be Jorginho, but he's fallen off so badly of late that you can't justify his selection.

12 minutes ago, Scott Harris said:

I thought both Jorginho and Kante were terrible against Real Madrid, and it wasn't because of their ability on the ball, it was their positional discipline. The pair of them were pressing far too high up the field, I don't think I have seen Jorginho play that high before. Positional discipline has been a major plus point of Jorginho since Tuchel came in, so it was shocking to see it fall apart against Real Madrid.

Jorginho's form has fallen off badly again. He was great for a lot of the season and I had him as our player of the season after Silva, but since Feb, he hasn't been anywhere near as good. He doesn't seem capable of having a good season from start to finish.

My worry for the rest of the season is that without him in the side, we never win the midfield battle. Kovacic and Kante are good individual players, but I am not really a fan of them together, I never have been. Neither of them really control a midfield, they are all action midfielders. You need a calm head next to one of them, which would usually be Jorginho, but he's fallen off so badly of late that you can't justify his selection.

Real Madrid countered our style, when we had the ball it didn't mattera and when we lost it they attacked too fast for our midfield and defenders.

Sounds like Tuchel wants a clear decision to be made on Jorginho & Kante this summer. So either a new contract or a sale on the cards for our midfield duo.

 

3 hours ago, Sindre said:

Sounds like Tuchel wants a clear decision to be made on Jorginho & Kante this summer. So either a new contract or a sale on the cards for our midfield duo.

 

With a new owner it is quite possible we ditch the "only 1 year for players over 30" contracts. If so it makes our options to keep them more.

However I will say this on the two of them. For Kante it is becoming clear, and even @just has said as much, that he cannot be a start every game kind of player. Not in this league and at this level. If all he had were the 38 league games and FA Cup games maybe, but not with the CL on top of it.

So with Kante I would want him to get a new 3 year deal but it be clearly understood he would not always be first choice for his own benefit and career longevity. Big game player but probably starting only 20 league games or less. If he is not happy with it, then sell him.

Far as Jorgi goes he has been a great servant to the club, a big help and top player. However I don't feel TT style meshes with him at his best and as he gets older he needs more legs around him. Being in midfield two is not working anymore for him. I would personally sell him as I also think Italys failure has had a big knock-on effect on him.

To be honest, I’d ask Tuchel to take a close look at Gallagher and Gilmour, and then make a decision about Kante and Jorgi. I wouldn’t be against keeping them, but only as long as there’s a clear path for Gallagher, who’d be first team name every week, and Gilmour, who’d be developed and getting plenty of game time. I think that it is clear that we need midfield options and selling both would only make us weaker.

The notion of Gilmour being a replacement for Jorginho or Kante is crazy, I’m not even sure if he’s a premier league player at this point and if he is he certainly isn’t good enough for us, I’ll be surprised if he’s at the club in a couple of years to be honest

35 minutes ago, timetowaste said:

The notion of Gilmour being a replacement for Jorginho or Kante is crazy, I’m not even sure if he’s a premier league player at this point and if he is he certainly isn’t good enough for us, I’ll be surprised if he’s at the club in a couple of years to be honest

Gilmour had a few standout performances for us and has had some very decent showings for Scotland, but has struggled badly at Norwich and only time will tell as to whether he has the consistency in his game to play at the top level.

Right now I can see Gallagher in our starting 11 next season but not Billy.