14 minutes ago, Sconnie Blue said:

Elite defensive midfielders are hard to come by. If there is one position we should be scouting, its that's one. 

 

 

We are fine without Lukaku and Werner despite the need of an elite striker, we're fine even after Alonso, Christensen and Rudiger left mainly because we replaced them, heck we're doing fine even while Kante is injured all the time and we're doing alright while our #10 is far from being good enough to wear that number... But without replacing someone like Jorginho, we would be in serious trouble.

So I agree, we must find someone suitable to replace Jorginho, he has been one of our most influential players since he came, without him Sarri doesn't get to change our style and we don't finish top 3 at all. If we do want to at the very least stay as a stable top 4 team, we must find a good player that is at the very least as good as Jorginho and that will be hard but I do trust in mr. Potter to find the perfect heir to J5.

43 minutes ago, just said:

Really? That's supposed to support your argument? That proves Jorginho made the difference?

The weight of your logic overwhelms me. I surrender. 

Interesting consistency.

3 hours ago, just said:

That's your own opinion though. You gave RLC a rating of 5 in your post-match scoring appraisal. A rating I noticed a good number of other posters disagreed with

So it's okay for you to use the opinion of anonymous forum members to support your argument yet I can't use the opinion of two men who play/played in midfield at International level? Got it!

Certainly seems like Jorginho is quite the polarizing figure on here.

Shouldn't the fact that Potter is the last in a long line of managers that rates him very highly really settle much of this debate? He's clearly a class player and Potter rates him highly and so did Tuchel amongst others.

Just now, Droy said:

Certainly seems like Jorginho is quite the polarizing figure on here.

Shouldn't the fact that Potter is the last in a long line of managers that rates him very highly really settle much of this debate? He's clearly a class player and Potter rates him highly and so did Tuchel amongst others.

Not only managers, direct opponents aswell.

https://www.thickaccent.com/2021/12/03/toni-kroos-issues-high-praise-for-jorginho-amid-ballon-dor-backlash/

38 minutes ago, Argo said:

Interesting consistency.

So it's okay for you to use the opinion of anonymous forum members to support your argument yet I can't use the opinion of two men who play/played in midfield at International level? Got it!

BBC match report:

"Five minutes before half-time, Potter admitted his tactical plan had failed by moving Ruben Loftus-Cheek into the right wing-back position instead of Sterling.

• Chelsea show support for Emma Hayes after 'trying week'

And after Cesar Azpilicueta and Kalidou Koulibaly replaced Cucurella and Kai Havertz at the break, Chelsea looked a lot more solid. They could have gone further ahead when Sterling, restored to the attack, headed wide and had another effort saved by Martinez."

Argo, Jorginho played 25 minutes and touched the ball a grand total of 16 times. Won no tackles, made no interceptions, no clearances, 1 block. Completed no through balls, or long passes. He hadn't even touched the ball when we scored our second goal! How anyone, even his biggest fan, can suggest he was a key player in winning that game is just laughable. Seriously. 

He came on and slowed our play down. Fantastic, recycling job done. He always slows our play down. It's his trademark. But I was under the impression it is one of the things I thought we were trying to move away from, in the hope of playing more attacking, attractive football.

 

14 minutes ago, just said:

BBC match report:

He came on and slowed our play down. Fantastic, recycling job done. He always slows our play down. It's his trademark. But I was under the impression it is one of the things I thought we were trying to move away from, in the hope of playing more attacking, attractive football.

 

Funnily enough we did play attractive attacking football while controlling games and conceding next to nothing in the UCL winning run and for the first part of last season, guess who played most of those games?  

https://www.transfermarkt.com/jorginho/leistungsdaten/spieler/102017/saison/2021

I guess I now file that next to the ever growing list of coincidences like him winning two European titles in 43 days and being the only regular starter in both sides, being only the 3rd player of this millennium to start in UCL and Euros winning teams in the same year, multiple managers picking him and the likes of Toni Kroos and Jose Mourinho raving about him.

2 hours ago, Argo said:

Funnily enough we did play attractive attacking football while controlling games and conceding next to nothing in the UCL winning run and for the first part of last season, guess who played most of those games?  

Kante.

Ah I remember the days when Kante could play regularly ar his amazing levels. Good times.

11 minutes ago, just said:

Kante.

Out of curiosity how would you manage his fitness when he returns? I've asked you a few times but you keep avoiding the question!

26 minutes ago, Argo said:

Out of curiosity how would you manage his fitness when he returns? I've asked you a few times but you keep avoiding the question!

Carefully. IMO we have three players who can perform at world class levels and dominate games. Silva, Kante and James. Unfortunately two of them are the wrong side of 30, Silva is closer to 40 than 30 and Kante is injury prone. However, for the biggest games against your top rivals, you still want your best players on the pitch. Potter has to try and manage that.

I have no problems with us looking to phase out Silva and Kante but I know that it will be very, very hard to find players who can come in and fill their shoes. Players of the quality of Silva and Kante don't come along very often. 

I've heard, read all the pros and cons, I agree more with Just.

My opinion is he only thrives when lesser opponents give him space and don't press - nowadays that type of opposition is hard to find. When he is closed down he's rathe lightweight gets 'runover' far too easily sometimes and loses possession causing issues for defending, he cant tackle to sav his life and certainly cant dribble around players. If you compare him to the last good playmaker CFC had Fabergas, he cant hold a candle. I will however for the sake of balance concede he's good at taking and scoring from penalties.

 

2 hours ago, just said:

Kante.

The fact is that Jorginho played more minutes in our CL title run in comparison to Kante and he did brilliantly his key role for us, he only missed the second leg against Atletico Madrid due to his yellow card suspension and that's it.

Jorginho went on to be the key player for Italy as well and won the best European player of the year award. So pretending that you don't know what happen doesn't change the reality, only you know why you try to ignore how well Jorginho did for us and in general that season as soon as Tuchel took over but it is in fact your selective memory that is failing your ability for an honest discussion, after all Kante only played about 15minutes in our away win vs Porto while Jorginho played as much as possible, there were even hints that he was overplayed.

Adding to the CL campaign is the PL start for Tuchel as well that talks in favor of Jorginho because for the first match after 1 training session Tuchel instructed the team to play possession with no risks and we broke some possession records that time vs Wolves, none of which would have been possible without Jorginho. Just how much Tuchel counted on Jorginho from the get-go is also shown in the fact that for the first 5 PL matches Jorginho played all 90' minutes for Tuchel and only that first match was a draw meaning 4 wins with 7 goals scored and only 1 conceded goal.

You're not doing Kante any favors by making him look like he's some mythical player that won us the CL solo, he only did his role because of the whole setup and in that whole setup Jorginho was equally a key player for us. Take either one of them out of that Tuchel's equation and we don't win the CL, it's as simple as that.

Edited October 18, 20223 yr by Gol15

50 minutes ago, General said:

I've heard, read all the pros and cons, I agree more with Just.

My opinion is he only thrives when lesser opponents give him space and don't press - nowadays that type of opposition is hard to find. When he is closed down he's rathe lightweight gets 'runover' far too easily sometimes and loses possession causing issues for defending, he cant tackle to sav his life and certainly cant dribble around players. If you compare him to the last good playmaker CFC had Fabergas, he cant hold a candle. I will however for the sake of balance concede he's good at taking and scoring from penalties.

 

He was never bought to be Fabregas to begin with. Nobody expected that either, at least nobody that knew how Sarri's style in Napoli is.

And while there is no doubt that Fabregas will always be a better player, Jorginho hasn't been a bad player for us at all, after all said and done he's the one player that we signed that year that proved his value and that has played the most for us and as a key player for basically his whole contract duration, part from the tricky months during Lampard's second season which was corrected by Tuchel as soon as he took over.

Remember that Man City doesn't have any communication with Napoli till this day, because of Jorginho choosing to join us instead. So here we have several top managers that were happy to have Jorginho for either most of the time like Lampard or for the full time they had him in the squad like Sarri, Tuchel and Mancini and if we add to that list Pep Guardiola that is for some people the best manager in the whole world I think it's safe to say that Jorginho simply isn't just good at scoring from penalties but that his ability and role is very much appreciated by top professionals. So instead of constantly trying to act like a crab and putting our own down, why not be happy that at some point we had this player that has by all means given all he has for our club and that because of him we managed to be a more stable club overall and win the CL on top of it?

You know @ModI do find it oddly funny that, despite outing himself as not a Chelsea fan, and being quite disrespectful at times, Tim only really has HC going after him yet far more forum members seem to derive such pleasure in winding up poor old Gol about himself so.

Just tell them "show me your medals" Jorgi boy 😉

1 hour ago, General said:

I've heard, read all the pros and cons, I agree more with Just.

My opinion is he only thrives when lesser opponents give him space and don't press - nowadays that type of opposition is hard to find. When he is closed down he's rathe lightweight gets 'runover' far too easily sometimes and loses possession causing issues for defending,

Some of his best games have come against Liverpool, arguably/probably the best pressing all action team we've faced in his time here.

Infact I'd argue apart from the 5-3 he's always played well against them.

Edited October 19, 20223 yr by Argo

6 hours ago, Argo said:

Some of his best games have come against Liverpool, arguably/probably the best pressing all action team we've faced in his time here.

Infact I'd argue apart from the 5-3 he's always played well against them.

They play with a high defensive line which sometimes works in our favour. But I wouldn't agree they are anywhere near the best pressing team. Leeds press far more. Certainly against us. Arsenal this season are the team who press the opposition the most IMO.

8 hours ago, Gol15 said:

The fact is that Jorginho played more minutes in our CL title run in comparison to Kante and he did brilliantly his key role for us, he only missed the second leg against Atletico Madrid due to his yellow card suspension and that's it.

Jorginho went on to be the key player for Italy as well and won the best European player of the year award. So pretending that you don't know what happen doesn't change the reality, only you know why you try to ignore how well Jorginho did for us and in general that season as soon as Tuchel took over but it is in fact your selective memory that is failing your ability for an honest discussion, after all Kante only played about 15minutes in our away win vs Porto while Jorginho played as much as possible, there were even hints that he was overplayed.

Adding to the CL campaign is the PL start for Tuchel as well that talks in favor of Jorginho because for the first match after 1 training session Tuchel instructed the team to play possession with no risks and we broke some possession records that time vs Wolves, none of which would have been possible without Jorginho. Just how much Tuchel counted on Jorginho from the get-go is also shown in the fact that for the first 5 PL matches Jorginho played all 90' minutes for Tuchel and only that first match was a draw meaning 4 wins with 7 goals scored and only 1 conceded goal.

You're not doing Kante any favors by making him look like he's some mythical player that won us the CL solo, he only did his role because of the whole setup and in that whole setup Jorginho was equally a key player for us. Take either one of them out of that Tuchel's equation and we don't win the CL, it's as simple as that.

TBH Gol the only reason I have got back in with this is the complete over-the-top reaction by some on here to his performance as a sub in the Villa game on Saturday. "Jorginho gave us the control", "showed why he is such a key player", "have to give him a new contract". Sorry these aren't verbatim I haven't gone back through the threads to lift them word for word from the posts but they are in context to some of the views expressed. But the reality, as shown in the stats, is completed different. 25 minutes, 16 touches, zero key offensive or defensive plays. I thought he did OK when he came on, kept possession, (recycled), and didn't make any mistakes. But TBH I didn't really notice him all that much. Yet the comments of some of his fans would make you think he had scored a hat-trick and cleared 6 off the line!

I have said many times before that I think Jorginho is a technically decent player. In some games a good option to use. But he has huge physical limitations which in turn limits his overall skillset and end product, and that for me means he has never been, nor ever ever will be, a great player. Yes, he has won things. The Euros with Italy of course. But he had arguably the greatest ever Italy centre-back pairing in Chiellini / Bonnucci behind him and Verrati and Barella beside him. You can say this a moot argument here because all players need team mates around. Of course, yep, accepted. But surely it is a factor you have to give consideration too? The one game in the euros I thought Jorginho really struggled quite badly was against Spain in the semi. Why? IMO, because Italy as a unit could not protect Jorginho against the fast movement, technical ability and pressing of the spanish team. They were too tied up doing their own jobs to cover for Jorginho too. "Why should they have to protect him?" I hear you say. OK, I understand. He is supposed to be their defensive screening player after all. Well, the answer is because of those physical limitations I spoke about........... he needed it. Big time. And it is often the same in many games for us. The players around him are required, not to enable him to weave football magic, but more commonly to protect him from becoming a bystander or even worse, a liability.

6 hours ago, just said:

TBH Gol the only reason I have got back in with this is the complete over-the-top reaction by some on here to his performance as a sub in the Villa game on Saturday. "Jorginho gave us the control", "showed why he is such a key player", "have to give him a new contract". Sorry these aren't verbatim I haven't gone back through the threads to lift them word for word from the posts but they are in context to some of the views expressed. But the reality, as shown in the stats, is completed different. 25 minutes, 16 touches, zero key offensive or defensive plays. I thought he did OK when he came on, kept possession, (recycled), and didn't make any mistakes. But TBH I didn't really notice him all that much. Yet the comments of some of his fans would make you think he had scored a hat-trick and cleared 6 off the line!

I have said many times before that I think Jorginho is a technically decent player. In some games a good option to use. But he has huge physical limitations which in turn limits his overall skillset and end product, and that for me means he has never been, nor ever ever will be, a great player. Yes, he has won things. The Euros with Italy of course. But he had arguably the greatest ever Italy centre-back pairing in Chiellini / Bonnucci behind him and Verrati and Barella beside him. You can say this a moot argument here because all players need team mates around. Of course, yep, accepted. But surely it is a factor you have to give consideration too? The one game in the euros I thought Jorginho really struggled quite badly was against Spain in the semi. Why? IMO, because Italy as a unit could not protect Jorginho against the fast movement, technical ability and pressing of the spanish team. They were too tied up doing their own jobs to cover for Jorginho too. "Why should they have to protect him?" I hear you say. OK, I understand. He is supposed to be their defensive screening player after all. Well, the answer is because of those physical limitations I spoke about........... he needed it. Big time. And it is often the same in many games for us. The players around him are required, not to enable him to weave football magic, but more commonly to protect him from becoming a bystander or even worse, a liability.

You have your view about the most recent match, I'm not going to go into that as I was only trying to go further back in history, mainly last season's CL campaign. I did express multiple times that I don't believe that he'll get a new contract, the same goes with Kante so I have no purpose there either.

I agree that he does have limitations and if I'm to be specific it's mainly the lack of pace IMO which is noticable when he's often the last player to come back into the defensive position where he's supposed to be, but his pros are greater than his cons. I think that the Spain:Italy match showed that Jorginho doesn't need to have possession in order to do his role, similar to how well he has done in big matches for us when we didn't have possession as well. He did his job defensively very well when it was needed, Spain did have some chances which is only normal, I'm yet to see a midfielder fully defending his backline for a duration of a full match, it simply doesn't happen at the highest level. If you want to argue that Jorginho failed to maintain possession that would be true as Spain controlled the match but Italy's tactic wasn't the same as usual for that particular match. For me personally, I rate the Cannavaro-Materazzi and in general Maldini and Nesta above the mentioned pairing of Chiellini-Bonnucci but of course that Jorginho benefited from them, in other matches they benefited greatly from having Jorginho as well it's just how it goes I mean without some world class players Italy wouldn't be Italy after all.

I think that Jorginho being our main liability is overblown, in his first season in the PL he was doing exactly the same things as in Serie A but more of them, which in turn is also due to Sarri but the fact remains that he has been the same player without any real need of adapting to the league or to any manager after Sarri, having Bonnucci or D.Luiz behind him doesn't really change him as a player, he'll always find you the stability that you need and he'll never outpace any opposition attacker. For his obvious lack of athleticism we didn't concede as many goals as we did prevent them due to his strengths but I wouldn't mind our next DM to have both the pace and the ability to keep possession, after all we all saw how important both are but if your player doesn't have the latter, the athleticism won't matter as we all saw how Bakayoko turned out.

When all said and done, Jorginho was always a system-type of a player and he gave his best years to our club and even while being overplayed and having a minor injury or while needing a head bandage and what not, he was always ready to do his best for the club.

14 hours ago, axman2526 said:

You know @ModI do find it oddly funny that, despite outing himself as not a Chelsea fan, and being quite disrespectful at times, Tim only really has HC going after him yet far more forum members seem to derive such pleasure in winding up poor old Gol about himself so.

Just tell them "show me your medals" Jorgi boy 😉

Tim maybe tried the whole "bad publicity is still publicity" but couldn't take away the spotlight from J5 to our #10...

The proof of the pudding.....  lets see how he does today starting today 

Watch This Space !

 

3 hours ago, General said:

The proof of the pudding.....  lets see how he does today starting today 

Watch This Space !

 

The pudding was stodgy and left a bad taste.

On 18/10/2022 at 20:00, Argo said:

Funnily enough we did play attractive attacking football while controlling games and conceding next to nothing in the UCL winning run and for the first part of last season, guess who played most of those games?  

https://www.transfermarkt.com/jorginho/leistungsdaten/spieler/102017/saison/2021

I guess I now file that next to the ever growing list of coincidences like him winning two European titles in 43 days and being the only regular starter in both sides, being only the 3rd player of this millennium to start in UCL and Euros winning teams in the same year, multiple managers picking him and the likes of Toni Kroos and Jose Mourinho raving about him.

Also a constant starter for the Italy team that didn't even manage to qualify for this years world cup when teams like Iran have. Also a constant starter for a Prem team that hasn't challenged for a league title once since his signing. Also a constant starter for an Napoli team that managed to bottle another league title and win nothing. Or do we only count a run of 5-6 knock out games to judge a player on?

On 19/10/2022 at 22:58, just said:

The pudding was stodgy and left a bad taste.

Fool pudding only eaten by a chosen few

The Euro 2020 win is a weird excuse. 

For one, Jorginho isn't a stranger to making it to cup finals in cup competitions. And two, international football is slower than the Premier League, and international football doesn't have two freak of natures that are Klopp's Liverpool and Pep's City. 

He took well the penalty, but my god he was struggling today…. Not his fault that we were so poor today, most players were. But our midfield was basically nonexistent mostly down to him, he gave away the ball away in danger zone a couple of times in the first half, and someone had to say it.