6 minutes ago, RMH said:

He took well the penalty, but my god he was struggling today…. Not his fault that we were so poor today, most players were. But our midfield was basically nonexistent mostly down to him, he gave away the ball away in danger zone a couple of times in the first half, and someone had to say it.

Opposition just breeze by like he isn’t there…

36 minutes ago, RMH said:

He took well the penalty, but my god he was struggling today…. Not his fault that we were so poor today, most players were. But our midfield was basically nonexistent mostly down to him, he gave away the ball away in danger zone a couple of times in the first half, and someone had to say it.

It would be best for us if we parted ways with him in the summer imo.

3 minutes ago, axman2526 said:

It would be best for us if we parted ways with him in the summer imo.

I agree, it's time. 

Jorginho contract ends at the end of this season, and Kante, both Kovacic and Loftus-Cheek contracts are up the season after.

Potter is going to get a new midfield over the next 12 months.

1 minute ago, coco said:

I agree, it's time. 

Jorginho contract ends at the end of this season, and Kante, both Kovacic and Loftus-Cheek contracts are up the season after.

Potter is going to get a new midfield over the next 12 months.

Of thar lot only Kova would I like to see offered a new deal too.

Kante may change my mind on that depending how he comes back from this.

5 minutes ago, axman2526 said:

Of thar lot only Kova would I like to see offered a new deal too.

Kante may change my mind on that depending how he comes back from this.

I'm in favour of them all going, but it will probably be 2 this summer and 2 the summer after. That's going to cost Todd 200m-300m USD or GBP both the same nowadays, which i think makes it better for Todd spending his dollars and getting more pounds.??

Just now, coco said:

I'm in favour of them all going, but it will probably be 2 this summer and 2 the summer after. That's going to cost Todd 200m-300m USD or GBP both the same nowadays, which i think makes it better for Todd spending his dollars and getting more pounds.??

I would guess yeah. Hopefully they are spent better than wasting money on Cucurella, Sterling and Koulibaly.

Todd's most important signing is the person or people who become director of football.

3 hours ago, RMH said:

He took well the penalty, but my god he was struggling today…. Not his fault that we were so poor today, most players were. But our midfield was basically nonexistent mostly down to him, he gave away the ball away in danger zone a couple of times in the first half, and someone had to say it.

I thought he played very well in the 2 half. 

He did not exist when we played 343 v 4231. He was absolutely slaughtered when we played 433. But when we played diamond, with middle of the field was fully protected, I though he was excellent. 

Edited October 23, 20223 yr by Bob stark

I think we all under estimate Jorginho's potential to be a public servant. @justin particular.  Many examples of his commitment to public duty, just some being 

Mason mount doesn't turn up again, Sterling and Aubameyang put in their worst performances for Chelsea, the defence at a shambles conceding a last minute goal from a cross. Yeah must be Jorginho. This forum's agenda is actually embarrassing.

10 minutes ago, timetowaste said:

Mason mount doesn't turn up again, Sterling and Aubameyang put in their worst performances for Chelsea, the defence at a shambles conceding a last minute goal from a cross. Yeah must be Jorginho. This forum's agenda is actually embarrassing.

There was a guy in the match thread yesterday who were genuinely worried he would slot away the penalty so people would forget about the performance.

There is clearly some unhealthy mental obsession going on with some.

Potter have praised him to the hilts and want to extend him. Enough said.

4 minutes ago, Droy said:

There was a guy in the match thread yesterday who were genuinely worried he would slot away the penalty so people would forget about the performance.

There is clearly some unhealthy mental obsession going on with some.

Potter have praised him to the hilts and want to extend him. Enough said.

Yep it is an obsession, Jorgi was crap in that first half mainly due to RLC running around aimlessly and leaving Jorgi by himself to deal with Casemiro, Eriksen and Bruno. When Kovacic came on and gave him an actual partner to work with the midfield was fine and we controlled it. What wasn't fine were our diabolical forwards who again seem to get let off the hook so they can blame Jorginho for us not winning games.

Maybe the truth is somewhere in between the extremes: Jorginho is not going to carry this team to Premier League titles but he's not completely sh*te either.

It is a good player. He got some great abilities - reading the game and connecting the defense with the midfield/attacking players. He got some less desirable qualities - not really a ball winner and lacks the physicality to deal with certain players.

As long as he's in the club and there's not too many options - he will get significant amounts of game time.

1 hour ago, timetowaste said:

Yep it is an obsession, Jorgi was crap in that first half mainly due to RLC running around aimlessly and leaving Jorgi by himself to deal with Casemiro, Eriksen and Bruno. When Kovacic came on and gave him an actual partner to work with the midfield was fine and we controlled it. What wasn't fine were our diabolical forwards who again seem to get let off the hook so they can blame Jorginho for us not winning games.

He had a bad first half but was great in the second half. Won the ball and kept our possession going in dangerous areas.

For all of the people that claim that he's a liability, if that was the truth you would think that someone that loves to expolit the midfield and shoot from distance would actually be able to do it but Bruno and Eriksen did f**k all whole game.

https://fbref.com/en/matches/7ad85c8a/Chelsea-Manchester-United-October-22-2022-Premier-League

He had 5 tackles, second best pressing player again after Mount, highest amount of blocks and blocked passes, equal to carrying the ball wth Chalobah as the highest amount in the squad, equal to Dave and Kovacic for passes that ended up in the final third... How many shots on target did we have if we don't count his penalty? 

 

 

Edited October 23, 20223 yr by Gol15

I think he's a very intelligent player and that's where his biggest strength lies. Unfortunately, he has neither physical attributes nor technical ability to use that footballing brain effectively in a fast paced physical environment that is modern PL.

I remember somebody here calling Cesc a footballing genius in a body of an accountant or something of that nature. Jorginho is similar in that he's a smart player but knowing when to make a great pass does not equal executing it perfectly and knowing when to tackle a player doesn't equal having an ability to actually do that. At least Fabregas had a brilliant passing in his locker and could create chances at will which almost made up for his flaws in other departments. Jorginho is good at retaining the ball when the press isn't too overwhelming and he's pretty good at penalties, that's about it. I

It's not that he's a bad player. It's just we need somebody significantly better in that position, someone who can offer much more, both with and without the ball.

 

3 hours ago, Droy said:

There was a guy in the match thread yesterday who were genuinely worried he would slot away the penalty so people would forget about the performance.

There is clearly some unhealthy mental obsession going on with some.

Potter have praised him to the hilts and want to extend him. Enough said.

You mean me Sindre. Did I want him to score the penalty? Of course I did. But I knew converting the penalty would detract attention from his overall performance. Am I wrong there? 

Anyway, continuing to spread the love, probably should have posted this up here rather than the RLC thread.

Just gone and had a look. Different stats on whoscored.com Gol. 

Jorginho 55 passes 78.2% success rate.

RLC 27 passes 81.5% success. Off course RLC played 17 minutes less than Jorginho.

Very interesting to compare the match stats of United's DM Casemiro to our own recycling midfielder.

Casemiro 56 passes 82.1% success rate. You can also see a difference in their respective offensive passing inputs during the game.

Jorginho long balls 1

Casemiro long balls 6

And to illustrate that Casemiro is yet  another EPL DM that is not purely defensive, in their last 4 matches:

Jorginho - Long balls 4, Through balls 0, Crosses 0, Key passes 1, Assists 0.

Casemiro - Long balls 14, Through balls 1, Crosses 1, Key passes 5, Assists 1.

Which adds yet more evidence to my view that we don't need a recycling midfielder.

17 minutes ago, just said:

You mean me Sindre. Did I want him to score the penalty? Of course I did. But I knew converting the penalty would detract attention from his overall performance. Am I wrong there? 

Anyway, continuing to spread the love, probably should have posted this up here rather than the RLC thread.

Just gone and had a look. Different stats on whoscored.com Gol. 

Jorginho 55 passes 78.2% success rate.

RLC 27 passes 81.5% success. Off course RLC played 17 minutes less than Jorginho.

Very interesting to compare the match stats of United's DM Casemiro to our own recycling midfielder.

Casemiro 56 passes 82.1% success rate. You can also see a difference in their respective offensive passing inputs during the game.

Jorginho long balls 1

Casemiro long balls 6

And to illustrate that Casemiro is yet  another EPL DM that is not purely defensive, in their last 4 matches:

Jorginho - Long balls 4, Through balls 0, Crosses 0, Key passes 1, Assists 0.

Casemiro - Long balls 14, Through balls 1, Crosses 1, Key passes 5, Assists 1.

Which adds yet more evidence to my view that we don't need a recycling midfielder.

Funny thing is that you will never ever say that RLC had a poor game, no matter how sh*t he is, you just find any excuse to talk about how you don't want to see Jorginho playing. FBref has better stats than whoscored anyway and either way I don't see RLC having anything more than 1 interception than Jorginho.

Edited October 23, 20223 yr by Gol15

3 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

Funny thing is that you will never ever say that RLC had a poor game, no matter how sh*t he is, you just find any excuse to talk about how you don't want to see Jorginho playing. FBref has better stats than whoscored anyway and either way I don't see RLC having anything more than 1 interception than Jorginho.

OK, not entirely unexpected. This isn't the first time you haven't wanted to acknowledge data from different providers of match day statistical analysis. So let's move away from the RLC / Jorginho statistical comparisons then, what about the comparisons with his opposite number Casemiro?

15 minutes ago, just said:

OK, not entirely unexpected. This isn't the first time you haven't wanted to acknowledge data from different providers of match day statistical analysis. So let's move away from the RLC / Jorginho statistical comparisons then, what about the comparisons with his opposite number Casemiro?

No point to move away when it's clear that Jorginho had a much better match in comparison to RLC that was lost throughout the whole match and that was later on taken off anyway. I think I said 2 seasons ago that I simply don't use whoscored as other people pointed out to me that they have flawed stats, since then I have been using FBref and I haven't had any such problems since.

Casemiro and Jorginho were far more similar in their perfomances, RLC is just a few levels below them and has now had poor perfomances in multiple positions so not so versatile as one might have thought he was. If Kante was healthy RLC would be on the bench anyway.

Casemiro had more touches, about 5% better passing accuracy, and more progressive passes and 1 more tackle.
Jorginho pressed better, had more blocks and had 1 more interception.

 

 

 

Edited October 23, 20223 yr by Gol15

12 minutes ago, just said:

OK, not entirely unexpected. This isn't the first time you haven't wanted to acknowledge data from different providers of match day statistical analysis. So let's move away from the RLC / Jorginho statistical comparisons then, what about the comparisons with his opposite number Casemiro?

So to be clear, you're holding Jorginho to the standards of quite possibly the best DM of all time.

Fair enough, but I hope the same energy is applied if/when Declan "it's okay we score in training" Rice rocks up in the future.

4 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

No point to move away when it's clear that Jorginho had a much better match in comparison to RLC that was lost throughout the whole match and that was later on taken off anyway. I think I said 2 seasons ago that I simply don't use whoscored as other people pointed out to me that they have flawed stats, since then I have been using FBref and I haven't had any such problems since.

Casemiro and Jorginho were far more similar in their perfomances, RLC is just a few levels below them and has now had poor perfomances in multiple positions so not so versatile as one might have thought he was. If Kante was healthy RLC would be on the bench anyway.

Casemiro had more touches, about 5% better passing accuracy, and more progressive passes and 1 more tackle.
Jorginho pressed better, had more blocks and had 1 more interception.

https://www.whoscored.com/Players/88526/MatchStatistics/Casemiro

 

https://www.whoscored.com/Players/106968/MatchStatistics/Jorginho

Excellent that you have found an unimpeachable source of statistical analysis. How do you know the FBref stats aren't flawed? 

 

Just now, just said:

https://www.whoscored.com/Players/88526/MatchStatistics/Casemiro

 

https://www.whoscored.com/Players/106968/MatchStatistics/Jorginho

Excellent that you have found an unimpeachable source of statistical analysis. How do you know the FBref stats aren't flawed? 

 

As I said, I don't use whoscored for a few years now as others pointed out for me that it's very much flawed. 

1 minute ago, Argo said:

So to be clear, you're holding Jorginho to the standards of quite possibly the best DM of all time.

Fair enough, but I hope the same energy is applied if/when Declan "it's okay we score in training" Rice rocks up in the future.

The best DM of all time?

Busquets, Makelele, Essien, Keane and that's just off the top of my head!

8 minutes ago, Argo said:

So to be clear, you're holding Jorginho to the standards of quite possibly the best DM of all time.

Fair enough, but I hope the same energy is applied if/when Declan "it's okay we score in training" Rice rocks up in the future.

Casemiro had a better match due to more touches and if you want to argue that he scored from open play, though arguably some of that is due to our poor start of the match since tactically Man United was better prior to Potter switching to a back 4.

Even so the differences in their performance isn't that huge, Jorginho by all means had a good second half and you can notice that they do one touch passes and send the ball wide it's just that when Casemiro and Rodri do those passes it's called quality but when Jorginho does it's called sideways passing. About Rodri btw, from 18-19 october I think:

Remember Rodri is quality and Jorginho is a sideway passer. 

Edited October 23, 20223 yr by Gol15

I rate Jorginho but some of you put him on a very high pedestal. 

It is incredibly evident he needs to be upgraded on. 

Just now, Sconnie Blue said:

I rate Jorginho but some of you put him on a very high pedestal. 

It is incredibly evident he needs to be upgraded on. 

I have no issue with that and I've even said myself I'd take him to his next club myself if the trade off was a player like FDJ.

However the sheer level of mental gymnastics created to downplay anything he good he does is getting ridiculous, that's the only reason people are "putting him on a pedestal".