Just now, charierre said:

Gol it should be remembered Rice is still only 23. Not yet at his prime but has played top level football for 4 years and been a regular international, appearing in  Euro final for a team that lost on penalties. Jorgi in comparison decided he couldn’t make the Brazil team so chose Italy at the age of 26 having only been playing top class from 23. He has had a good peak. The time to do a comparison is really when both have had a peak career. Both are good players( you have to be to get to their level). 

Jorginho never played for Brazil as he moved to Italy when he was much younger than Rice, not that uncommon after all as the Italian national team has had people that originally are from South America prior to Jorginho, but he has openly said that Brazil did try to convince him to play for them, he simply chose Italy. He could have played in a more stacked nation just like he could have played for a richer team under Pep, but he chose Italy and Chelsea.

Rice on the other hand ditched Ireland after playing for basically all youth teams, after openly saying that it would be the best thing for his future which means he chose the stronger team that will give him more chances to succeed which is the very opposite of Jorginho's decision-making.

6 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

Jorginho never played for Brazil as he moved to Italy when he was much younger than Rice, not that uncommon after all as the Italian national team has had people that originally are from South America prior to Jorginho, but he has openly said that Brazil did try to convince him to play for them, he simply chose Italy. He could have played in a more stacked nation just like he could have played for a richer team under Pep, but he chose Italy and Chelsea.

Rice on the other hand ditched Ireland after playing for basically all youth teams, after openly saying that it would be the best thing for his future which means he chose the stronger team that will give him more chances to succeed which is the very opposite of Jorginho's decision-making.

If he’d been good enough he’d have played in the yellow. He still didn’t make his international debut till 26. Comparison at 23 which is the only fair one puts Rice ahead at that stage in careers.

7 minutes ago, Sconnie Blue said:

Should also take into consideration the England set up as well. Averaged only 35% against Italy in the final. 

If we are truly going the data driven approach, going after Declan Rice contradicts everything. 

I imagine after the mistake of going for Lukaku for 100m (price tag after he scored goals under Conte's counter-attacking style) that it's very obvious that we shouldn't spend another 100m for a player that simply won't solve our lack of end product and that has never played in a possession-based team.

Not saying that Rice would be a flop like Lukaku but for 100m, that player should be doing far more than the capabilities of Rice. For that price tag you expect a player solving you games and Rice simply isn't that player. For half the money we can find a player that does the same job as Rice but better, I'm sure of it.

4 minutes ago, charierre said:

If he’d been good enough he’d have played in the yellow. He still didn’t make his international debut till 26. Comparison at 23 which is the only fair one puts Rice ahead at that stage in careers.

Brazil approach him to play for them in 2016 as he was already making Champions League football with Napoli, something that Rice has never done and as it stands won't do soon.

Choosing between Brazil and Italy at any point of someone's career is far better in comparison to choosing between Ireland and England and as I said, Rice chose the easier option, Jorginho chose the harder.

46 minutes ago, charierre said:

Gol it should be remembered Rice is still only 23. 

I remember that argument was constantly used to defend Lukaku when he was in and around that age.

Technical flaws don't get fixed with age.

21 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

I imagine after the mistake of going for Lukaku for 100m (price tag after he scored goals under Conte's counter-attacking style) that it's very obvious that we shouldn't spend another 100m for a player that simply won't solve our lack of end product and that has never played in a possession-based team.

Not saying that Rice would be a flop like Lukaku but for 100m, that player should be doing far more than the capabilities of Rice. For that price tag you expect a player solving you games and Rice simply isn't that player. For half the money we can find a player that does the same job as Rice but better, I'm sure of it.

It simply contradicts everything Boehly an co are trying to implement. Date driven recruitment for higher effectiveness. 

We should not be spending close to 100m in the chance or hope Declan Rice transitions into an elite ball retention player. His best football came in a compact set up where they gave up possession. As much as I criticize Jorginho, we ran circles around Modric, Kroos, and Casemiro in 2021 because of him. Do people genuinly expect we will do the same with Declan Rice? Based on what?

Again, I will be extremely disappointed if we bring in Shields, Stewart, Macaulay, and Vivell, just to sign Declan f**king Rice. 

 

32 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

Brazil approach him to play for them in 2016 as he was already making Champions League football with Napoli, something that Rice has never done and as it stands won't do soon.

Choosing between Brazil and Italy at any point of someone's career is far better in comparison to choosing between Ireland and England and as I said, Rice chose the easier option, Jorginho chose the harder.

Didn’t play Champions League till 2017 as your stats should tell you Gol your slipping. England is a lot harder to get into than Eire.

15 minutes ago, Argo said:

I remember that argument was constantly used to defend Lukaku when he was in and around that age.

Technical flaws don't get fixed with age.

You’ve a nasty habit of judging one thing so assume everything else will follow. I’ve not dissed either player but said comparison should be made at 23 which as things stand puts Rice ahead. 

1 minute ago, charierre said:

Didn’t play Champions League till 2017 as your stats should tell you Gol your slipping. England is a lot harder to get into than Eire.

I'm not trying to sell you a story here, you can google it, Jorginho said Brazil tried to convince him to play for them in the year of 2016 and at the time he was already playing CL football with Napoli.

https://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague/match/2019284--dynamo-kyiv-vs-napoli/

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/jorginho/debuets/spieler/102017

If your biggest argument is that Rice is younger than we can only see how his career goes as time passes by but don't tell me that it's harder to play for Ireland/England in comparison to Italy/Brazil.

 

 

I know he won the euros with Italy so ot justifies it, bit imagine having a choice of playing from Brazil or Italy and picking Italy...

7 minutes ago, charierre said:

You’ve a nasty habit of judging one thing so assume everything else will follow. I’ve not dissed either player but said comparison should be made at 23 which as things stand puts Rice ahead. 

Because it's relevant to the "he's only 23" point.

Declan Rice is not suddenly going to turn into a player that allows a team to go toe to toe with other elite sides because he simply hasn't got the skillset. There's many things players can improve on but natural talent isn't one of them.

4 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

I'm not trying to sell you a story here, you can google it, Jorginho said Brazil tried to convince him to play for them in the year of 2016 and at the time he was already playing CL football with Napoli.

https://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague/match/2019284--dynamo-kyiv-vs-napoli/

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/jorginho/debuets/spieler/102017

If your biggest argument is that Rice is younger than we can only see how his career goes as time passes by but don't tell me that it's harder to play for Ireland/England in comparison to Italy/Brazil.

 

 

He chose the harder path available to him. As I said any player reaching their level has to be decent, but comparison can only be fairly done at the age of the considerably younger player. I’ll concede he played in 2016, fair play. Though as Axman stated you simply don’t turn down Brazil unless you don’t think you’ll make it with them. They are quite simply the pinnacle to play for.

12 minutes ago, Argo said:

Because it's relevant to the "he's only 23" point.

Declan Rice is not suddenly going to turn into a player that allows a team to go toe to toe with other elite sides because he simply hasn't got the skillset. There's many things players can improve on but natural talent isn't one of them.

I’ll leave it there. I’m honestly wasting my time with you. He has achieved more at 23 than many players do in a career and certainly more than the comparison that was being made! You’ve decided he isn’t any good, fair enough your opinion.
 

Edited October 27, 20223 yr by charierre

15 minutes ago, charierre said:

He chose the harder path available to him. As I said any player reaching their level has to be decent, but comparison can only be fairly done at the age of the considerably younger player. I’ll concede he played in 2016, fair play. Though as Axman stated you simply don’t turn down Brazil unless you don’t think you’ll make it with them. They are quite simply the pinnacle to play for.

We're all different people, his whole career worked because he moved to Italy as a teenager, not every decision is made with the mind either but some are made with the heart, after all he chose Sarri over Pep (us over Man City) as well and he has to live with the fact that he'll never win the PL nor play at the World Cup.

Edited October 27, 20223 yr by Gol15

1 hour ago, Gol15 said:

I imagine after the mistake of going for Lukaku for 100m (price tag after he scored goals under Conte's counter-attacking style) that it's very obvious that we shouldn't spend another 100m for a player that simply won't solve our lack of end product and that has never played in a possession-based team.

Not saying that Rice would be a flop like Lukaku but for 100m, that player should be doing far more than the capabilities of Rice. For that price tag you expect a player solving you games and Rice simply isn't that player. For half the money we can find a player that does the same job as Rice but better, I'm sure of it.

Ruben Neves

1 hour ago, Argo said:

Because it's relevant to the "he's only 23" point.

Declan Rice is not suddenly going to turn into a player that allows a team to go toe to toe with other elite sides because he simply hasn't got the skillset. There's many things players can improve on but natural talent isn't one of them.

Physical and athletic limitations is another.

20 hours ago, ozboy said:

Whenever I want to reflect on the meaninglessness of things I come to the Jorginho thread. After reading any random page I feel better equipped to understand religious wars. 

No ozboy it's the opposite!

Deciphering Gol's endless stats helps maintain mental agility. It is the equivalent of doing a sudoku puzzle and a crossword at the same time. Checking  Argo's numerous alleged "facts" takes online detective work to reveal the "facts" that are plain wrong. Overall it brings a sense of great purpose and joy to the day knowing that I am one of the righteous brethren carrying the flag in the eternal battle against the evil threat a sitting and recycling midfielder poses to entertaining, attacking football. I'm kind of like Batman really.

1 hour ago, just said:

Checking  Argo's numerous alleged "facts" takes online detective work to reveal the "facts" that are plain wrong. 

Well that's not true it is?

If you're referring specifically to the Jorginho one, I said about his form at Hellas Verona around 2013 earning him a move to Napoli to which you then bizarrely brought up a period from a few years before that.

Or was it the one when you claimed Kante being put on the bench at Euro16 didn't equate to being dropped?

It's a shame because up to that point I genuinely thought better of you than that despite our disagreements, oh well.

1 hour ago, Argo said:

Well that's not true it is?

If you're referring specifically to the Jorginho one, I said about his form at Hellas Verona around 2013 earning him a move to Napoli to which you then bizarrely brought up a period from a few years before that.

Or was it the one when you claimed Kante being put on the bench at Euro16 didn't equate to being dropped?

It's a shame because up to that point I genuinely thought better of you than that despite our disagreements, oh well.

Yes it is.

You were clearly wrong on two counts in the discussion on Kante in Euro 2016. You said his performance levels were so poor he was dropped after the round of 16. That was not correct IMO. Firstly I showed the match report for their opening group game were he was top of practically every relevant stat. And he was suspended for the quarter, not dropped, and was brought on as a sub in the semi-final.

And on your snap shot of Jorginho's history at Hellas Verona, which you were using in the context of how it demonstrated he was a major player in a weak side, I used another example which showed that wasn't always the case.

"Come 2010, however, the midfielder was struggling for game time. He went on loan to the fourth tier and then, after returning to Verona, was shunted around — right-back, centre-back, No 10. 

Eventually, Jorginho told his agent he wanted to leave. A return to fourth-tier football beckoned until a team-mate picked up an injury and the door swung back open. 'Everything changed after that,' Jorginho recently told the Telegraph."

 

Jorginho reading this thread 

4 hours ago, just said:

No ozboy it's the opposite!

Deciphering Gol's endless stats helps maintain mental agility. It is the equivalent of doing a sudoku puzzle and a crossword at the same time. Checking  Argo's numerous alleged "facts" takes online detective work to reveal the "facts" that are plain wrong. Overall it brings a sense of great purpose and joy to the day knowing that I am one of the righteous brethren carrying the flag in the eternal battle against the evil threat a sitting and recycling midfielder poses to entertaining, attacking football. I'm kind of like Batman really.

From thinking that any future manager after Sarri won't play Jorginho, then dismissing any stats and facts that go against your pre-made opinions, furthermore disagreeing with multiple statements from top managers and players that played with or against him, to arguing how he isn't even good enough to play in this league, to coping with our victories and Italy winning the Euro and changing the goalposts as time passed on, to thinking that he surely won't see his contract through as he will be sold and even thinking that Potter stopped relying on on him after he didn't play one match only to be our captain once again with having as much appearances as Mount this season...

Here's me on one side at the last year of Jorginho's contract where nobody else from the summer he was signed had a more influential role than him and there's you that has been dismissing a player for the full length of his contract as if he's Drinkwater and as if everyone else but you is simply blind, from coaches to supporters...

You shall know them by their fruits, if the good always wins in the end, how do you end up always losing?

Edited October 28, 20223 yr by Gol15

1 hour ago, just said:

Yes it is.

You were clearly wrong on two counts in the discussion on Kante in Euro 2016. You said his performance levels were so poor he was dropped after the round of 16. That was not correct IMO. Firstly I showed the match report for their opening group game were he was top of practically every relevant stat. And he was suspended for the quarter, not dropped, and was brought on as a sub in the semi-final.

And on your snap shot of Jorginho's history at Hellas Verona, which you were using in the context of how it demonstrated he was a major player in a weak side, I used another example which showed that wasn't always the case.

"Come 2010, however, the midfielder was struggling for game time. He went on loan to the fourth tier and then, after returning to Verona, was shunted around — right-back, centre-back, No 10. 

Eventually, Jorginho told his agent he wanted to leave. A return to fourth-tier football beckoned until a team-mate picked up an injury and the door swung back open. 'Everything changed after that,' Jorginho recently told the Telegraph."

I think whatever side we are on the Jorginho debate we can ALL agree that whoever put Jorginho at RB should never work in football again.

Edited October 28, 20223 yr by timetowaste

No one else going to pick up on Just comparing himself to Batman eh?

The Jorgi thread seems to have made him more like the Riddler....

2 hours ago, just said:

Yes it is.

You were clearly wrong on two counts in the discussion on Kante in Euro 2016. You said his performance levels were so poor he was dropped after the round of 16. That was not correct IMO. Firstly I showed the match report for their opening group game were he was top of practically every relevant stat. And he was suspended for the quarter, not dropped, and was brought on as a sub in the semi-final.

Ok then in that case then why did you say Jorginho was dropped under Frank? Because, like Kante in Euro 2016, it was done via a suspension.

2 hours ago, just said:

And on your snap shot of Jorginho's history at Hellas Verona, which you were using in the context of how it demonstrated he was a major player in a weak side, I used another example which showed that wasn't always the case.

"Come 2010, however, the midfielder was struggling for game time. He went on loan to the fourth tier and then, after returning to Verona, was shunted around — right-back, centre-back, No 10. 

Eventually, Jorginho told his agent he wanted to leave. A return to fourth-tier football beckoned until a team-mate picked up an injury and the door swung back open. 'Everything changed after that,' Jorginho recently told the Telegraph."

Which he was come the end, hence how he earned a move to Napoli (and was lined with us and Arsenal) in January 2014.

If Gilmour suddenly starts hitting a level at Brighton where top clubs come in for him would your first thought be "meh he was sh*t at Norwich"?