3 hours ago, timetowaste said:

I think whatever side we are on the Jorginho debate we can ALL agree that whoever put Jorginho at RB should never work in football again.

But I bet he was ace when they played him at centre back! If anyone has that video I am prepared to pay for it.

4 hours ago, Argo said:

Ok then in that case then why did you say Jorginho was dropped under Frank? Because, like Kante in Euro 2016, it was done via a suspension.

Which he was come the end, hence how he earned a move to Napoli (and was lined with us and Arsenal) in January 2014.

If Gilmour suddenly starts hitting a level at Brighton where top clubs come in for him would your first thought be "meh he was sh*t at Norwich"?

But that was why I made the point Argo. From memory here as I am out and about at the moment.

Many people suggested Jorginho would have been a great a player at Norwich regardless of the players around him. Gol and Sindre in particular. I was firmly of the view he would have struggled as badly as Gilmour and said as much. You then pointed out he had already been in a team like that and succeed. I pointed out it took quite some time before he did, and that in itself turned on a quirk of fate with another player getting injured. His age at that 19/20. Same as Gilmour.

 

 

56 minutes ago, just said:

But that was why I made the point Argo. From memory here as I am out and about at the moment.

Many people suggested Jorginho would have been a great a player at Norwich regardless of the players around him. Gol and Sindre in particular. I was firmly of the view he would have struggled as badly as Gilmour and said as much. You then pointed out he had already been in a team like that and succeed. I pointed out it took quite some time before he did, and that in itself turned on a quirk of fate with another player getting injured. His age at that 19/20. Same as Gilmour.

 

 

Feel free to quote Sindre and me on that 👍

6 hours ago, Gol15 said:

Feel free to quote Sindre and me on that 👍

No problems. Page 46.

 

1 hour ago, just said:

No problems. Page 46.

 

Damn, did you crawl through every single page of Gilmour thread? 

8 hours ago, just said:

No problems. Page 46.

 

 

On 28/12/2021 at 17:43, Gol15 said:

I already exposed this false argument in regards to Gilmour being compared to Jorginho. Jorginho managed to do well in every team he played, he was decent in Verona, good in Napoli and world class for us and Italy. To say that he would struggle would be a wild guess as it ignores his whole career path.

And yes, he has been one of the best when it comes to interceptions and passes into the final third, so there is nothing to suggest that he would be a fail in another team, I imagine nobody can dare to say that in regards to other top players because then it would be pretty obvious that it's just about being a hater. "De Bruyne and Salah would struggle in Norwich too" is the type of thing you just don't hear.

Such a nice read, thanks! 

It's been years and our fanbase still can't find a common ground for Jorgi

9 hours ago, Bob stark said:

Damn, did you crawl through every single page of Gilmour thread? 

Some feat when you’ve been on the beer all day😂

19 hours ago, just said:

But that was why I made the point Argo. From memory here as I am out and about at the moment.

Many people suggested Jorginho would have been a great a player at Norwich regardless of the players around him. Gol and Sindre in particular. I was firmly of the view he would have struggled as badly as Gilmour and said as much. You then pointed out he had already been in a team like that and succeed. I pointed out it took quite some time before he did, and that in itself turned on a quirk of fate with another player getting injured. His age at that 19/20. Same as Gilmour.

 

 

But the reason i was holding Gilmour to the standards of "Jorginho 13/14" is because many believed he was a better fit for us than Jorginho even currently, let alone that version 

just and me when we win/draw with Jorginho playing:

 

@just when we lose without Jorginho playing:

😅

2 hours ago, Gol15 said:

just and me when we win/draw with Jorginho playing:

 

@just when we lose without Jorginho playing:

😅

I agree Gol. If Jorginho had played today we would have won. Probably by a two or three goal margin. Football is that straight forward and simple.

A wise man once said "If Pulisic starts, Chelsea wins"

52 minutes ago, just said:

I agree Gol. If Jorginho had played today we would have won. Probably by a two or three goal margin. Football is that straight forward and simple.

I don't think so, but then again I know that if Jorginho had scored that amazing own-goal instead of RLC that you wouldn't be so shy...

 

If given the choice I’d keep him of all the midfielders. 
 

Kova, Kante, and Ruben can go. 

Well what a shock, the worst performance of the season didn't have Jorgi in midfield. The sooner his doubters understand how important he is to the midfield the better.

Sometimes I do wonder whether Jorgi fans even watch us play. 

Based on some of the comments that I read here, the answer is definitely a big no

No Jorginho no control, same as the Villa game.

I'm so bored of this back and forth now.

If Jorginho plays and we lose / draw / play like sh*t, the same people are calling him out and saying he's not good enough.

If Jorginho doesn't play and we lose / draw / play like sh*t, the same people are saying it's all because he wasn't there to control the midfield.

3 years of this now.

This constant bickering is pointless because the simple fact is that none of our current midfielders are good enough. It doesn't matter who you play in there, they all have weaknesses waiting to be exploited. They are all capable of having a decent game now and again, but all it takes is the opposition coach to spot those weaknesses and set their team up to exploit those weaknesses and our midfield gets found out. They are all capable of putting in good performances now and again but none of them are capable of helping us challenge for a league title.

It doesn't matter how much Jorginho can control a midfield with his pointing and passing 500 times a game, there are going to be many games over the course of a season where his physical dificiencies will cost us. That midfield has and will be overrun again with Jorginho in midfield. We will never win or compete for a league title with his physical problems, and to be brutally honest, there was never even a chance of it. It's not possible to get away with it often enough in a 38 game season. 

Put Loftus-Cheek there and it's the same issue for different reasons. He has the physical capabilities that Jorginho doesn't have, but he also has the tempo of a snail. Loftus-Cheek has no football brain, which is why he plays at that same slow tempo every game. He doesn't know how to shift tactics, he doesn't know when to play slow and when to play fast. He doesn't know when to burst through midfield or when to contain. He has zero chemistry with every other midfielder in the team. There's a reason why no coach has ever been able to work out his best position, it's because there is no football intelligence there for him to actually fit in any position permanently.

There isn't a player in world football that doesn't have weaknesses in some part of their game, but some weaknesses are so great that they can't be covered up often enough, this applies to the two players above. 

We all know that next season we are going to need to replace all 3 of Jorginho, Loftus-Cheek and Kante, so why don't we just stop the bickering and forcus on that? As for now, we may as well just stick with the Jorginho and Kovacic parnership because it's the only partnership that has ever shown that they are capable of at least going on a run of games performing well together.

Edited October 30, 20223 yr by Scott Harris

4 hours ago, Scott Harris said:

I'm so bored of this back and forth now.

If Jorginho plays and we lose / draw / play like sh*t, the same people are calling him out and saying he's not good enough.

If Jorginho doesn't play and we lose / draw / play like sh*t, the same people are saying it's all because he wasn't there to control the midfield.

3 years of this now.

This constant bickering is pointless because the simple fact is that none of our current midfielders are good enough. It doesn't matter who you play in there, they all have weaknesses waiting to be exploited. They are all capable of having a decent game now and again, but all it takes is the opposition coach to spot those weaknesses and set their team up to exploit those weaknesses and our midfield gets found out. They are all capable of putting in good performances now and again but none of them are capable of helping us challenge for a league title.

It doesn't matter how much Jorginho can control a midfield with his pointing and passing 500 times a game, there are going to be many games over the course of a season where his physical dificiencies will cost us. That midfield has and will be overrun again with Jorginho in midfield. We will never win or compete for a league title with his physical problems, and to be brutally honest, there was never even a chance of it. It's not possible to get away with it often enough in a 38 game season. 

Put Loftus-Cheek there and it's the same issue for different reasons. He has the physical capabilities that Jorginho doesn't have, but he also has the tempo of a snail. Loftus-Cheek has no football brain, which is why he plays at that same slow tempo every game. He doesn't know how to shift tactics, he doesn't know when to play slow and when to play fast. He doesn't know when to burst through midfield or when to contain. He has zero chemistry with every other midfielder in the team. There's a reason why no coach has ever been able to work out his best position, it's because there is no football intelligence there for him to actually fit in any position permanently.

There isn't a player in world football that doesn't have weaknesses in some part of their game, but some weaknesses are so great that they can't be covered up often enough, this applies to the two players above. 

We all know that next season we are going to need to replace all 3 of Jorginho, Loftus-Cheek and Kante, so why don't we just stop the bickering and forcus on that? As for now, we may as well just stick with the Jorginho and Kovacic parnership because it's the only partnership that has ever shown that they are capable of at least going on a run of games performing well together.

There hasn't been a player being used as the scapegoat as much as Jorginho. Thus the reactionary sentiments where some pointed out how we're very much capable of losing without Jorginho stepping on the pitch is only normal and as I pointed out, had Jorginho scored the same own-goal that RLC just did, this thread would be on fire.

Heck even here you say that we're never going to win or compete for the league title due to Jorginho. As if we were constantly a top 2 team prior to him signing for us. The truth however might shock you, we were 5th prior to Jorginho becoming our player and ever since he has been we haven't finished below top 4, so the fact remains that we have at the very least been a consistent top 4 team. If we go further back we would see that we have had huge oscillations, from being champions to not even playing European football at all as we also finished 10th somewhere in-between those title winning years. So that's 2 titles and not a single top 2 finish since 2011 which suggests that we actually haven't been competing for many titles regardless of Jorginho.

Did anyone expect Sarri to compete with the title? The people in charge definitely didn't, Sarri was very open in saying that the difference between us and Man City is simply too big and that for that season we must look to decrease that huge difference, and by all means he did managed to fulfill that requirement.
Did anyone expect us to compete for the title after we got a transfer ban and Lampard took over? The people in change definitely didn't.
The season after that Lampard lost the plot and got sacked, did anyone expect Tuchel to compete for the title? The people in change definitely didn't.

Now comes the season after the CL title, did anyone expect Tuchel to compete for the title? I know some did and the club backed him and he signed Lukaku for 100m. Why was that so important for him? To sign a new striker for such a high amount?
You see ever since the Europa League title with Sarri we haven't had a world class attacker. Tuchel knew that he needs at least 1 in order to win the league, after all every team that has won the league had at least one world class attacker at some forward position. But we have been lacking such a player ever since D.Costa and Hazard left. It turned out that the Lukaku signing failed, that set us 2 seasons back and we're STILL searching for a world class attacking player, all of our rivals have at least 2, we have none.

Look at Man City, even when all options fail, they still have KDB to solve them the game like he just did from a free kick, that stuff wins you titles. Only Mount comes across as a potential candidate for a world-class player due to his work rate and somewhat comparable end-product but the fact remains, we don't have a player capable of winning the title for us, those players are the ones that Man City and Liverpool have had, they are attacking players that score goals and create assists. From Morata to Lukaku, we haven't found a world class attacker yet and it doesn't look like Aubameyang is that player either, nor Sterling. But sure, keep saying how the only reason we can't compete for the league title is because Jorginho lacks the pace and isn't physical enough, not like we have managed to get multiple periods of being strong defensively and under multiple managers.

We're actually scoring 1 goal per game this season and last season the vast majority of our goals came from our defenders and midfielders, having one of the weakest frontlines of all top teams is the main reason why we can't compete for the title. 

Edited October 30, 20223 yr by Gol15

4 hours ago, Scott Harris said:

I'm so bored of this back and forth now.

If Jorginho plays and we lose / draw / play like sh*t, the same people are calling him out and saying he's not good enough.

If Jorginho doesn't play and we lose / draw / play like sh*t, the same people are saying it's all because he wasn't there to control the midfield.

3 years of this now.

This constant bickering is pointless because the simple fact is that none of our current midfielders are good enough. It doesn't matter who you play in there, they all have weaknesses waiting to be exploited. They are all capable of having a decent game now and again, but all it takes is the opposition coach to spot those weaknesses and set their team up to exploit those weaknesses and our midfield gets found out. They are all capable of putting in good performances now and again but none of them are capable of helping us challenge for a league title.

It doesn't matter how much Jorginho can control a midfield with his pointing and passing 500 times a game, there are going to be many games over the course of a season where his physical dificiencies will cost us. That midfield has and will be overrun again with Jorginho in midfield. We will never win or compete for a league title with his physical problems, and to be brutally honest, there was never even a chance of it. It's not possible to get away with it often enough in a 38 game season. 

Put Loftus-Cheek there and it's the same issue for different reasons. He has the physical capabilities that Jorginho doesn't have, but he also has the tempo of a snail. Loftus-Cheek has no football brain, which is why he plays at that same slow tempo every game. He doesn't know how to shift tactics, he doesn't know when to play slow and when to play fast. He doesn't know when to burst through midfield or when to contain. He has zero chemistry with every other midfielder in the team. There's a reason why no coach has ever been able to work out his best position, it's because there is no football intelligence there for him to actually fit in any position permanently.

There isn't a player in world football that doesn't have weaknesses in some part of their game, but some weaknesses are so great that they can't be covered up often enough, this applies to the two players above. 

We all know that next season we are going to need to replace all 3 of Jorginho, Loftus-Cheek and Kante, so why don't we just stop the bickering and forcus on that? As for now, we may as well just stick with the Jorginho and Kovacic parnership because it's the only partnership that has ever shown that they are capable of at least going on a run of games performing well together.

No one thinks he's the perfect player but the sheer level of mental gymnastics used to discredit any good he does is off the scale. 

Reality is despite his flaws Sarri, Tuchel, Potter and Mancini all pick/picked him while all time greats like Capello and Mourinho rave over him, Toni Kroos also goes on record saying how difficult he was to play against yet apparently they're all wrong.

Edited October 30, 20223 yr by Argo

4 hours ago, Scott Harris said:

I'm so bored of this back and forth now.

If Jorginho plays and we lose / draw / play like sh*t, the same people are calling him out and saying he's not good enough.

If Jorginho doesn't play and we lose / draw / play like sh*t, the same people are saying it's all because he wasn't there to control the midfield.

3 years of this now.

This constant bickering is pointless because the simple fact is that none of our current midfielders are good enough. It doesn't matter who you play in there, they all have weaknesses waiting to be exploited. They are all capable of having a decent game now and again, but all it takes is the opposition coach to spot those weaknesses and set their team up to exploit those weaknesses and our midfield gets found out. They are all capable of putting in good performances now and again but none of them are capable of helping us challenge for a league title.

It doesn't matter how much Jorginho can control a midfield with his pointing and passing 500 times a game, there are going to be many games over the course of a season where his physical dificiencies will cost us. That midfield has and will be overrun again with Jorginho in midfield. We will never win or compete for a league title with his physical problems, and to be brutally honest, there was never even a chance of it. It's not possible to get away with it often enough in a 38 game season. 

Put Loftus-Cheek there and it's the same issue for different reasons. He has the physical capabilities that Jorginho doesn't have, but he also has the tempo of a snail. Loftus-Cheek has no football brain, which is why he plays at that same slow tempo every game. He doesn't know how to shift tactics, he doesn't know when to play slow and when to play fast. He doesn't know when to burst through midfield or when to contain. He has zero chemistry with every other midfielder in the team. There's a reason why no coach has ever been able to work out his best position, it's because there is no football intelligence there for him to actually fit in any position permanently.

There isn't a player in world football that doesn't have weaknesses in some part of their game, but some weaknesses are so great that they can't be covered up often enough, this applies to the two players above. 

We all know that next season we are going to need to replace all 3 of Jorginho, Loftus-Cheek and Kante, so why don't we just stop the bickering and forcus on that? As for now, we may as well just stick with the Jorginho and Kovacic parnership because it's the only partnership that has ever shown that they are capable of at least going on a run of games performing well together.

Why wasn't him getting picked for Brighton, fitness, rotation, or tactical?  Potter knew Brighton is going to press us high, so took out the 'possession' guy was a big gamble, unless we had a big front man and the plan is to  playing long. Let's be realistically about it, we don't have a KDB in this team, every MF player has flaws, and Jorginho is one the better one.

On 27/10/2022 at 20:21, Argo said:

Because it's relevant to the "he's only 23" point.

Declan Rice is not suddenly going to turn into a player that allows a team to go toe to toe with other elite sides because he simply hasn't got the skillset. There's many things players can improve on but natural talent isn't one of them.

There's absolutely nothing to suggest this opinion is true. 

Not sure what this lack of natural talent you keep waffling on about has come from. He's relatively quick, strong, good dribbler and can retain a ball and pass well. If anything he has a hell of a lot more 'natural' talent than the player you're trying to defend on this thread who looks like he'll pop a hernia if he gets above 7mph or passes a ball with any power at all. 

On 27/10/2022 at 20:38, Gol15 said:

We're all different people, his whole career worked because he moved to Italy as a teenager, not every decision is made with the mind either but some are made with the heart, after all he chose Sarri over Pep (us over Man City) as well and he has to live with the fact that he'll never win the PL nor play at the World Cup.

By the sound of things he chose the easiest paths available to him. Knew he wouldn't get consistent game time at Brazil and expectations are higher so settled in a below average Italy team for minutes. Knew he couldn't physically handle a Pep system so stayed in his comfort zone with Sarri. 

1 minute ago, RIP Mourinho said:

By the sound of things he chose the easiest paths available to him. Knew he wouldn't get consistent game time at Brazil and expectations are higher so settled in a below average Italy team for minutes. Knew he couldn't physically handle a Pep system so stayed in his comfort zone with Sarri. 

I don't know why he picked us over city but Jorgi can certainly play for city. 

But that is Jorgi biggest problem. He can only play for us n city. I honestly can't think of any player in our main squad that can only play for two teams.