16 hours ago, Gol15 said:

Yes it's exactly the same Kezman and Oscar also didn't have a pre-season and had covid-05 and 012 respectively 

Oh, and if you are justifying a professional sportsman not being able to competently perform his duties because he hasn't yet recovered from a debilitating illness, then you are making my point for me that he should not be in the team until he has recovered fully.

And it's irrelevant that Lampard keeps on picking him, if he isn't recovered he should withdraw until he can complete a pass and make a tackle.

2 minutes ago, yorkleyblue said:

Oh, and if you are justifying a professional sportsman not being able to competently perform his duties because he hasn't yet recovered from a debilitating illness, then you are making my point for me that he should not be in the team until he has recovered fully.

And it's irrelevant that Lampard keeps on picking him, if he isn't recovered he should withdraw until he can complete a pass and make a tackle.

Yes I know, the only relevant thing is what you think, I mean you're comparing a 21 year old that came to us under specific circumstances with some of our biggest flops just because you have this crazy bias, why don't you complain in the Lampard thread then since it isn't Kai that is making the starting lineups 

3 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

Yes I know, the only relevant thing is what you think, I mean you're comparing a 21 year old that came to us under specific circumstances with some of our biggest flops just because you have this crazy bias, why don't you complain in the Lampard thread then since it isn't Kai that is making the starting lineups 

Alright, I'm not going to carry this on anymore, as you obviously have great googling skills but very little in the way of comprehension or understanding of simple concepts.

I have no knowledge of or interest in what Havertz did in the Bundesliga, I only care about what he does in Chelsea Blue, and that, so far, has mostly to play badly.  If it was just me noticing this, I would concede that I might possibly be wrong, but I don't think that you can find anyone else who claims that he is currently "one of the best players in the squad" based on performances.

So, don't bother replying, and especially don't google any more compilation videos, modern art pictures or incredibly witty gifs like the one above.

4 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

Yes I know, the only relevant thing is what you think, I mean you're comparing a 21 year old that came to us under specific circumstances with some of our biggest flops just because you have this crazy bias, why don't you complain in the Lampard thread then since it isn't Kai that is making the starting lineups 

Biggest flops? Oscar wasn't a flop. We signed him for 30 million, he offered plenty of decent games and was later sold for 60 million to China. Kezman was bought for 15, proved to be sh*t and was sold for 7.5 million. Biggest flops are the likes of Drinkwater (38m), Batshuayi (39m) Kepa (80m) and Bakayoko (40m) where we invested millions into players that delivered little to no value and can't be resold because everyone knows they are sh*t. 

Just now, yorkleyblue said:

Alright, I'm not going to carry this on anymore, as you obviously have great googling skills but very little in the way of comprehension or understanding of simple concepts.

I have no knowledge of or interest in what Havertz did in the Bundesliga, I only care about what he does in Chelsea Blue, and that, so far, has mostly to play badly.  If it was just me noticing this, I would concede that I might possibly be wrong, but I don't think that you can find anyone else who claims that he is currently "one of the best players in the squad" based on performances.

So, don't bother replying, and especially don't google any more compilation videos, modern art pictures or incredibly witty gifs like the one above.

I never thought you did, I in fact replied to someone else that didn't know how Kai played before he came here and he didn't know what does it mean to be a generational talent.

Slojo baited you into a conversation in which you had no interests in most likely, you're still hung up on a conversation that nobody is actually having anymore, take it easy now.

 

6 minutes ago, reparto corse said:

Biggest flops? Oscar wasn't a flop. We signed him for 30 million, he offered plenty of decent games and was later sold for 60 million to China. Kezman was bought for 15, proved to be sh*t and was sold for 7.5 million. Biggest flops are the likes of Drinkwater (38m), Batshuayi (39m) Kepa (80m) and Bakayoko (40m) where we invested millions into players that delivered little to no value and can't be resold because everyone knows they are sh*t. 

So why are people comparing a 21 year old that hasn't had a pre-season and that had covid to some of our worst signings ever? Kezman was one of our biggest flops, I already saw someone mentioning Bakayoko. It's not me making those silly comparisons...

6 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

So why are people comparing a 21 year old that hasn't had a pre-season and that had covid to some of our worst signings ever? Kezman was one of our biggest flops, I already saw someone mentioning Bakayoko. It's not me making those silly comparisons...

Havertz has been horrible so far which scares people and makes them worried he might become the next Bakayoko/Drinkwater/Zappacosta/ etc. 

I am more than willing to give Havertz at least 2 full seasons before really coming to any serious conclusions but that doesn't mean that I think he hasn't been terrible so far.

He needs to be benched and fight his way back into the team step by step IMO. No one should be selected just because of potential or a hefty price tag.

Edited December 17, 20205 yr by reparto corse

Just now, reparto corse said:

Havertz has been horrible so far which scares people and makes them worried he might become the next Bakayoko/Drinkwater/Zappacosta/ etc. 

I am more than willing to give Havertz at least 2 full seasons before really coming to any serious conclusions but that doesn't mean that I think he hasn't been terrible so far.

He needs to be benched and fight his way back into the team step by step IMO. No one should be selected just because of potential or a hefty price tag.

If there is anything Lampard has done as the manager, that is that he has played those that performed well during training. Last season he kept playing Mount regardless of how Mount did because he was making a new team, he's still doing that.

I think that more than enough people pointed out the possible reasons why Kai and Timo haven't performed that well lately, I don't see someone as yorkley as being scared or worried at all, it's all just criticism with a very low level of patience and just focusing on the negatives.

I noticed in the match thread that now as soon as Kai loses 1 ball people lose their minds and want him to go off, then he went off we looked worse and lost the game. Talk about making a new scapegoat...

 

1 hour ago, yorkleyblue said:

Firstly, I'm relatively confident that he isn't reading this forum, and, even if he is, he is as aware as we all are that he has mostly been a bit naff so far, and has on occasions directly cost us goals against. 

Keep him out of the starting lineup until the FA Cup and let him get his head right.  I have said all along that he may well be the next {enter name of whoever you consider best ever player} but so far, in a Chelsea shirt he has shown nothing at all to warrant a place in the team.  We can't afford to wait several months for him to be able to play a simple 5-yard pass to a team mate consistently.

I did mate, I have downloaded it all and am working through it forensically so that I can enhance my Havertz education enough to enable me to join the cult of blind adoration.

 

(Not sure about some of the graphics, though, that look like some sort of primary school art project with crayons and glitter)

Absof**kinglutley.

If Havertz isn’t aware that he is playing rubbish at the moment, then we have even bigger problems that we already imagine.

Study well, exam starts at 3.30 or when ever he gets home from school - was a bit later yesterday, must of had detention perhaps ?

 

2 hours ago, reparto corse said:

Highlight videos are meaningless. There are video compilations of Kepa  that make it seem like he is world-class. 

The graphs make no sense to me. I have no idea what this stuff is supposed to say and I don't know why this is used as an argument for why he is a "world-class generational talent". I work a lot with statistics in my job and especially the first graph is complete garbage. It looks like something someone would create to fool naive people on social media. 

What in the world is "recieving in the box" - 31 - adjusted to premier league standards - supposed to prove for example? 

Does that mean the average value is 50 (or 100? or 0?) and he is below/above average at "recieving in the box" (WHAT does that even mean??) 

You watched him play for Leverkusen so obviously you must know more than me. 

He played a total of 45 games last year so 18 goals and 9 assists against mostly trash opposition teams in the Bundesliga isn't very convincing for me either to be honest.  

 

Absof**kinglutley.

Thanks for your insightful commentary from your professional understanding of the Tom foolery that statistical analysis can be.

Its the ”kings new clothes;

 

 🎼 🎶........look at the king, look at the king, look at the king, the king, the king !.......... 🎼🎵

 

 🎼 🎶......the king was in the all together , but all together , the altogether, He’s all together as naked as the day that he was born.......................... 🎼🎵 
 

and so on and so on ........... (apologies to those who don’t got a Danny la Rue)

 

1 hour ago, Gol15 said:

Yes I know, the only relevant thing is what you think, I mean you're comparing a 21 year old that came to us under specific circumstances with some of our biggest flops just because you have this crazy bias, why don't you complain in the Lampard thread then since it isn't Kai that is making the starting lineups 

It's no lie that Yorkley can be a grumpy sod at times, but he's been watching Chelsea and football for years, he knows a thing or two when it comes to signing new players. And yes, statistically Kai is very impressive, no doubt about it. But you need to forget all that for the time being and focus on the now. Right NOW, he's not cutting the mustard. He isn't up for the task, it's concerning. I'm confident he will become good and I'll always give a player another season, unless it's a Bakayoko situation. 

But the thing is, Kai is turning into a liability. Both of our last games Kai was horrendous and helped the other team more than he did ours. Go watch that goal Wolves scored, the first one. Reece James and Chilwell didn't do the best, but Kai stood there and watched it happen. If that was Mount, he would've got right in behind him, and never have gave the Wolves player any space to get his shot off like that. Instead, he had acres of spaces to move into, he was allowed to cut onto his right foot. 

Then he keeps giving the ball away and in dangerous areas, it's costing us big time, that's 6 points we've lost now this month. I'm sorry but if he's in the starting lineup against West Ham I'm not going to be happy about it. 

2 minutes ago, Slojo said:

It's no lie that Yorkley can be a grumpy sod at times, but he's been watching Chelsea and football for years, he knows a thing or two when it comes to signing new players. And yes, statistically Kai is very impressive, no doubt about it. But you need to forget all that for the time being and focus on the now. Right NOW, he's not cutting the mustard. He isn't up for the task, it's concerning. I'm confident he will become good and I'll always give a player another season, unless it's a Bakayoko situation. 

But the thing is, Kai is turning into a liability. Both of our last games Kai was horrendous and helped the other team more than he did ours. Go watch that goal Wolves scored, the first one. Reece James and Chilwell didn't do the best, but Kai stood there and watched it happen. If that was Mount, he would've got right in behind him, and never have gave the Wolves player any space to get his shot off like that. Instead, he had acres of spaces to move into, he was allowed to cut onto his right foot. 

Then he keeps giving the ball away and in dangerous areas, it's costing us big time, that's 6 points we've lost now this month. I'm sorry but if he's in the starting lineup against West Ham I'm not going to be happy about it. 

Well I don't think it's reasonable to compare him to Bakayoko at all, but fact is he didn't create anything at all vs Wolves.

Even so, it's not because of him that we lost 6 points, but I don't even want to get into this blame game.

4 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

Well I don't think it's reasonable to compare him to Bakayoko at all, but fact is he didn't create anything at all vs Wolves.

Even so, it's not because of him that we lost 6 points, but I don't even want to get into this blame game.

I'm not comparing him to Bakayoko in terms of abillity. What I said was and later clarified, is that it's a similar situation in the manager playing a new signing even though he's not ready/playing well. I can see the thought process in Frank doing it, it's a gamble, he's hoping Kai will learn from the experience and play on through it, probably like Lampard did in his career. They're obviously not identical situations, I just brought it up because it gave me those vibes. I personally remember how horrific those times where when Conte kept playing Bakayoko over and over again and we kept losing games, I don't want a repeat of that. 

I'm not blaming those two games on him, but he was a hefty factor in both games. He provided minimal attacking output and gave the other team a significant advantage in almost every area. Replace him with Ziyech and I bet both of those games would've been very different. That's the point I'm making. Oh and to clarify, I think Havertz is much better than Bakayoko, just so you know. 

Edited December 17, 20205 yr by Slojo

2 hours ago, reparto corse said:

Biggest flops? Oscar wasn't a flop. We signed him for 30 million, he offered plenty of decent games and was later sold for 60 million to China. Kezman was bought for 15, proved to be sh*t and was sold for 7.5 million. 

Kezman was both bought and sold for just a little over £5m.

Or one quarter of a Baba Rahman if you will. 

Edited December 17, 20205 yr by ForeverCarefree

I haven´t been on here since a few months but after Kai apparently has had a poor run of form for you, I decided to look into this forum again out of curiosity.

I am a Bayer Leverkusen supporter since 18 years and I have watched basically every Havertz game for us and wrote a few things about him on here earlier.

What I can say is: There might be a slight misconception about Havertz time in the Bundesliga. I didn´t expect him to be a consistent top performer right away at Chelsea, he hasn´t been consistent for us either during the years. The fascinating thing is, that the discrepancy in his performances is very high. In the first 20 games of last season or so he had very poor performances, eventually leading to him being whistled off the pitch by some of our supporters when he was substituted against Hertha Berlin in November 2019. In those periods, he showed the same kind of mistakes that were being described her, combined with his body language (which I compared to Özil in my earlier postings) I know that it can be frustrating to watch him, especially if your team is losing a game. I saw a few posts saying, that he needs to get used to the "pace" of the PL and I personally think that´s a myth. He showed the same weaknesses in the Bundesliga as well in his bad periods. That´s not a Premier League phenomenon.

But as I said, the discrepancy in his performances is very high. Meaning that when he is at bis best, he is an incredible player and a constant goal threat. He is still young and he still doesn´t have the consistency to play a his highest level all the time. I think that is the next step he needs to take in order to develop into a world class player. Give him time, be patient. Even though it can be frustrating witnessing his playing style when he has his bad periods.

14 minutes ago, UnexpectedGuest said:

I haven´t been on here since a few months but after Kai apparently has had a poor run of form for you, I decided to look into this forum again out of curiosity.

I am a Bayer Leverkusen supporter since 18 years and I have watched basically every Havertz game for us and wrote a few things about him on here earlier.

What I can say is: There might be a slight misconception about Havertz time in the Bundesliga. I didn´t expect him to be a consistent top performer right away at Chelsea, he hasn´t been consistent for us either during the years. The fascinating thing is, that the discrepancy in his performances is very high. In the first 20 games of last season or so he had very poor performances, eventually leading to him being whistled off the pitch by some of our supporters when he was substituted against Hertha Berlin in November 2019. In those periods, he showed the same kind of mistakes that were being described her, combined with his body language (which I compared to Özil in my earlier postings) I know that it can be frustrating to watch him, especially if your team is losing a game. I saw a few posts saying, that he needs to get used to the "pace" of the PL and I personally think that´s a myth. He showed the same weaknesses in the Bundesliga as well in his bad periods. That´s not a Premier League phenomenon.

But as I said, the discrepancy in his performances is very high. Meaning that when he is at bis best, he is an incredible player and a constant goal threat. He is still young and he still doesn´t have the consistency to play a his highest level all the time. I think that is the next step he needs to take in order to develop into a world class player. Give him time, be patient. Even though it can be frustrating witnessing his playing style when he has his bad periods.

It's hard to properly judge a player after only a few months; especially given his age, the fact that he had a novel virus and that it hit him pretty hard according to Frank. Some people expect some of these kids to come into the team and perform like Messi, Ronaldo, or Mbappe and it just isn't realistic or even remotely common. 

22 hours ago, Gol15 said:

If we are not patient with a generational talent we might regret it like with KDB. Mount and Kovacic also needed some time to get into it when they were in their own first season.

So learn from the past and give Kai enough time to settle in because he is the future. I wouldn't mind to see him coming from the bench as a striker or as the n.10 player, just give him the freedom he needs to move around and enjoy, I can say the same thing about Werner, put him in the CF position and let him do his thing.

 

Well said. While Havertz surely doesn't read this forum, this is probably a microcosm of the mood of fans. And this tension will soon reflect on to the players. Why do we have to be tense in the slightest here? We can afford to lose a few games for the greater good. Maybe there is no greater good but I'm pretty sure we have less experience and less evidence to judge this player compared to Frank and the rest of the staff at Chelsea. So of course they can make mistakes but now is not the time to judge whether this is a mistake.

4 hours ago, yorkleyblue said:

And it's irrelevant that Lampard keeps on picking him, if he isn't recovered he should withdraw until he can complete a pass and make a tackle.

This is nonsense. Lampard is responsible for the team selection. 

I think Kai has looked dog sh*t recently and shouldn't be playing. But it's not his fault he's being played. That isn't up for debate. 

It's a debate whether he needs more time. Whether he should be rested. Whether he will ever cut it. But no one should suggest a player is at fault for being put in the line up.

Considering how poor we were the last 3 games I feel is bit much to expect Ziyech to change those poor results in to good ones.

He is a good player no doubt, but it took Hazard at his best to drag this team out of dogsh*t performances. Ziyech has not proved he is that good yet.

Is on the whole team including Frank for the recent poor performances and results.

From Mendy coming when he should not and giving away a pen to not coming when he should to clear the delivery Silva cleared before the first wolves goal.

From Zouma just backing off Neto, Chilwell putting in aimless balls. Mount and Havertz not producing, Werner being invisible, Giroud getting bullied, Frank's poor tactical switch of Pulisic and Werner Etc etc.

The team lost and the only one player from those two league games that can say he put in a good shift is Kante. Everyone else, Frank included, has not been good enough.

6 minutes ago, axman2526 said:

Considering how poor we were the last 3 games I feel is bit much to expect Ziyech to change those poor results in to good ones.

He is a good player no doubt, but it took Hazard at his best to drag this team out of dogsh*t performances. Ziyech has not proved he is that good yet.

Is on the whole team including Frank for the recent poor performances and results.

From Mendy coming when he should not and giving away a pen to not coming when he should to clear the delivery Silva cleared before the first wolves goal.

From Zouma just backing off Neto, Chilwell putting in aimless balls. Mount and Havertz not producing, Werner being invisible, Giroud getting bullied, Frank's poor tactical switch of Pulisic and Werner Etc etc.

The team lost and the only one player from those two league games that can say he put in a good shift is Kante. Everyone else, Frank included, has not been good enough.

What you describe is almost the whole team and that is when I looked at the fixtures and saw we played 5 games in 13 days and realised that fatigue was also a factor.

37 minutes ago, bisright1 said:

This is nonsense. Lampard is responsible for the team selection. 

I think Kai has looked dog sh*t recently and shouldn't be playing. But it's not his fault he's being played. That isn't up for debate. 

It's a debate whether he needs more time. Whether he should be rested. Whether he will ever cut it. But no one should suggest a player is at fault for being put in the line up.

Don't be so silly.  If I'm not fit enough to go to work, I phone my boss and let her know,  We actually have a sickness reporting procedure formalised in our employment handbook. 

Same thing applies here.

I don't know how fit or unfit Havertz is, but when we have people in here claiming that he is unable to pass to a team-mate in the open 5 yards away, make a simple tackle or generally look like a professional footballer because he is still not recovered from Covid, then he needs to phone in sick for a while.

If he's playing like I would because of other reasons, then fair enough, but that isn't the excuse being bandied around by his "number one fan" and chief statistician.

1 minute ago, yorkleyblue said:

Don't be so silly.  If I'm not fit enough to go to work, I phone my boss and let her know,  We actually have a sickness reporting procedure formalised in our employment handbook. 

Same thing applies here.

I don't know how fit or unfit Havertz is, but when we have people in here claiming that he is unable to pass to a team-mate in the open 5 yards away, make a simple tackle or generally look like a professional footballer because he is still not recovered from Covid, then he needs to phone in sick for a while.

If he's playing like I would because of other reasons, then fair enough, but that isn't the excuse being bandied around by his "number one fan" and chief statistician.

It's not the same thing at all. What a nonsense thing to say.

You don't spend time with a medical professional at work every day. 

Also if you would read your sickness handbook, if you wanted to take a week off work - which if Havertz opted out of the first team would happen - you would need to get a medical note from a doctor. 

Lampard (and the doctors) will have all the information, more than havertz, he makes the decision. No player should ever be blamed for playing. 

Do I think covid is the reason why Havertz isn't playing well? Not really. But I don't think it has helped and I think lampard is overplaying him on purpose which to my eyes, isn't the right solution. 

 

28 minutes ago, bisright1 said:

It's not the same thing at all. What a nonsense thing to say.

You don't spend time with a medical professional at work every day. 

Also if you would read your sickness handbook, if you wanted to take a week off work - which if Havertz opted out of the first team would happen - you would need to get a medical note from a doctor. 

Lampard (and the doctors) will have all the information, more than havertz, he makes the decision. No player should ever be blamed for playing. 

Do I think covid is the reason why Havertz isn't playing well? Not really. But I don't think it has helped and I think lampard is overplaying him on purpose which to my eyes, isn't the right solution. 

 

hmmmmm. A professional footballer isn't responsible for his own health and fitness for work, eh?  OK, mate.  

I knew there was a reason I had you on ignore, I'd just forgotten what it was.  Now I remember.

4 minutes ago, yorkleyblue said:

hmmmmm. A professional footballer isn't responsible for his own health and fitness for work, eh?  OK, mate.  

I knew there was a reason I had you on ignore, I'd just forgotten what it was.  Now I remember.

Probably because you are incapable of reading as at no point did I say anything about him not being responsible for his health and fitness. I said he isn't responsible for his own selection. That's completely different.

But you genuinely are one of the most ignorant people I encounter on here so it's not surprising you can't comprehend the difference. 

Edited December 17, 20205 yr by bisright1

1 hour ago, axman2526 said:

Considering how poor we were the last 3 games I feel is bit much to expect Ziyech to change those poor results in to good ones.

He is a good player no doubt, but it took Hazard at his best to drag this team out of dogsh*t performances. Ziyech has not proved he is that good yet.

Is on the whole team including Frank for the recent poor performances and results.

From Mendy coming when he should not and giving away a pen to not coming when he should to clear the delivery Silva cleared before the first wolves goal.

From Zouma just backing off Neto, Chilwell putting in aimless balls. Mount and Havertz not producing, Werner being invisible, Giroud getting bullied, Frank's poor tactical switch of Pulisic and Werner Etc etc.

The team lost and the only one player from those two league games that can say he put in a good shift is Kante. Everyone else, Frank included, has not been good enough.

I do think that Chilwell and James played well overall, maybe less consistent than Kante but still good enough.

When more than half of the team is struggling it's clearly up to Lampard to adjust some things, yes he found this new role for Kante and he's doing really well but he has been playing other players out of position and some not at all during a pretty busy schedule. When injuries come he must adapt to the situation as well.

In the end of the day if only 1 player stands out why is a new 21 year old being singled out and not some other players that have been pretty much invisible recently, even with Kai out of the team we didn't really improve against Wolves and they played without their best striker.

Someone pointed out that Sarri also lost to Wolves some seasons ago, well how come Lampard with all the hindsight from that couldn't learn a single thing out of it and just repeated some bad history there?

Ultimately if our new signings (part from Chilwell, Mendy and T.Silva) keep failing or keep getting injured they will be labeled as Lampard's flops. He will then be similar to Conte in that regard as he would ultimately fail to improve our team, the difference will be in that case that it was almost as big of a failure because Conte didn't get properly backed but Lampard was backed and got all of his targets part from Rice.
So I hope he fixes things because no matter what others might say, ultimately it will be on him.
It's not a hard fix though, if there are no wingers - switch to a back 3 formation, and try to get the best out of Werner and Havertz by playing them at their strongest position.

Edited December 17, 20205 yr by Gol15

2 hours ago, UnexpectedGuest said:

I haven´t been on here since a few months but after Kai apparently has had a poor run of form for you, I decided to look into this forum again out of curiosity.

I am a Bayer Leverkusen supporter since 18 years and I have watched basically every Havertz game for us and wrote a few things about him on here earlier.

What I can say is: There might be a slight misconception about Havertz time in the Bundesliga. I didn´t expect him to be a consistent top performer right away at Chelsea, he hasn´t been consistent for us either during the years. The fascinating thing is, that the discrepancy in his performances is very high. In the first 20 games of last season or so he had very poor performances, eventually leading to him being whistled off the pitch by some of our supporters when he was substituted against Hertha Berlin in November 2019. In those periods, he showed the same kind of mistakes that were being described her, combined with his body language (which I compared to Özil in my earlier postings) I know that it can be frustrating to watch him, especially if your team is losing a game. I saw a few posts saying, that he needs to get used to the "pace" of the PL and I personally think that´s a myth. He showed the same weaknesses in the Bundesliga as well in his bad periods. That´s not a Premier League phenomenon.

But as I said, the discrepancy in his performances is very high. Meaning that when he is at bis best, he is an incredible player and a constant goal threat. He is still young and he still doesn´t have the consistency to play a his highest level all the time. I think that is the next step he needs to take in order to develop into a world class player. Give him time, be patient. Even though it can be frustrating witnessing his playing style when he has his bad periods.

Thanks for taking the time to post this - at last something that I can understand rather than pie charts and graphs which I can not - bloody hell, doesn’t make a great read does it?

£75 million for the potential to be a world class player and without any guarantee of course,  is that honestly the going rate ?

World class, well he’s got a f**king long way to go cause right now, I’m sorry to say, he’s f**king hopeless - I mean he f**ks up the basics - a 5 yard pass under hit every time ffs - no wonder James was giving him the death stare - that’s a potential career ending leg brake !!!? 

We well and truly had our pants pulled down with Kepa, is this going the same way ?

At the risk of being suicidally depressed further, do you have insightful opinions on Werner ?