Has to be said, the kid is just not good enough to influence games on his own at the moment. It's hard to actually say that and ignore the transfer fee, even though the rational side of me knows it was a potential signing. 

At this moment in time, I would seriously rather just play Anjorin or Mount on the wing (yeah Mount, I really just said that) and give Gilmour the minutes in the middle. Because at the moment, this kid just can't do it, he's either over thinking it or he's just shot for confidence. He looks like he wants to coast games and keep it as simple as possible but while doing that he's also over thinking it and misplacing simple balls that you could do with your eyes closed. 

It's giving me Bakayoko vibes, trying to coast the game and not make any mistakes but you end up making more mistakes with that sort of mentality. I could be way off here... But I don't think he should be starting any games until we get more players back and Kai can play in a more central position. He's just not reliable enough to be our central attacking player right now. 

Offer him to Dortmund plus some money for Sancho.

Am I entirely serious? No but as pissed off as i am I'd be tempted.

Doesn't half look like a PL player at the moment.

He can't even play short passes properly, which is a basic skill of football, there's no way to defend that.

17 minutes ago, Slojo said:

Has to be said, the kid is just not good enough to influence games on his own at the moment. It's hard to actually say that and ignore the transfer fee, even though the rational side of me knows it was a potential signing. 

At this moment in time, I would seriously rather just play Anjorin or Mount on the wing (yeah Mount, I really just said that) and give Gilmour the minutes in the middle. Because at the moment, this kid just can't do it, he's either over thinking it or he's just shot for confidence. He looks like he wants to coast games and keep it as simple as possible but while doing that he's also over thinking it and misplacing simple balls that you could do with your eyes closed. 

It's giving me Bakayoko vibes, trying to coast the game and not make any mistakes but you end up making more mistakes with that sort of mentality. I could be way off here... But I don't think he should be starting any games until we get more players back and Kai can play in a more central position. He's just not reliable enough to be our central attacking player right now. 

Why spend 70m on "potential"? With that kind of money you should be getting a quality player from the get go. What if he doesn't develop into the world beater we are hoping for? 

It is always a high risk spending this kind of money on potential, and I voiced this when the rumors started. 

Just now, TheSage said:

Why spend 70m on "potential"? With that kind of money you should be getting a quality player from the get go. What if he doesn't develop into the world beater we are hoping for? 

It is always a high risk spending this kind of money on potential, and I voiced this when the rumors started. 

Because long term signings exist??? 

At 21 he looked very promising in the Bundesliga. In a few years from now who knows how good he could be. Sadly he just can't get started right now, it's going to take time. 

He's recovering from an illness that caused most of this forum to want football halted indefinitely.

And even if that wasn't the case, surely lessons need to be learned from James' and Mount's resurgence.

Deserves to be benched for the next games.

I don't understand what he supposed to add to our game. His passing is awful, instead of putting two through balls for a goal he shoots on a defender. 

I'm really disappointed with so far.

We as fans need to be patient with him but Frank needs to think about how best to use him, we're not getting anything from him at the moment and it won't be doing Kai any good.

5 minutes ago, Argo said:

He's recovering from an illness that caused most of this forum to want football halted indefinitely.

And even if that wasn't the case, surely lessons need to be learned from James' and Mount's resurgence.

Sure but does he need to be on the pitch to do that? Also covid affects people differently and the effects are different from person to person as well, if he's not fully fit then he shouldn't play, as of now covid is just an excuse for him.

1 minute ago, sonic90 said:

Sure but does he need to be on the pitch to do that? Also covid affects people differently and the effects are different from person to person as well, if he's not fully fit then he shouldn't play, as of now covid is just an excuse for him.

He was ill, and badly. And you are right in the sense he shouldn't play if not fit, but he's not picking himself.

Short term he should get the rotation treatment Pulisic got when he struggled initially.

Edited December 12, 20205 yr by Argo

Give him time.  That was another poor performance and we are right to expect better.  The concern is while he is not yet influencing the game going forward, he's also making mistakes on the basics.

I do think he (and Werner) are both suffering from the constant rotation of their positions, but that is a debate for another day.  Honestly, Kai does need to step it up.

8 minutes ago, Slojo said:

Because long term signings exist??? 

At 21 he looked very promising in the Bundesliga. In a few years from now who knows how good he could be. Sadly he just can't get started right now, it's going to take time. 

Did you even read my post? I didn't say we shouldn't buy players with potential. Spending such big money on potential when you can never be sure the potential will develop is not a great strategy in my book

3 minutes ago, IliyaKrostin said:

Deserves to be benched for the next games.

I don't understand what he supposed to add to our game. His passing is awful, instead of putting two through balls for a goal he shoots on a defender. 

I'm really disappointed with so far.

That's only when Lampard is not using him correctly though. When Lampard played him as the central attacking midfielder he was making goals and assists in every game he played. This is on Lampard, he's playing our new signings out of position and they look clueless, that's not their fault. Werner scored over 30 goals last season as a striker, now he's putting in crosses for Giroud to equalize are you kidding me?

1 minute ago, Argo said:

He was ill, and badly. And you are right in the sense he shouldn't play if not fit, but he's not picking himself.

Short term he should get the rotation treatment Pulisic got when he struggled initially.

Covid can be flu symptoms or affect your breathing and therefore cardio ability, it can also damage your blood vessels to affect blow flow too but not everybody has these symptoms, so we don't know if he's actually physically affected or just had a really bad fever. We can give benefit of doubt but not say that he's definitely still in recovery.

1 minute ago, Gol15 said:

That's only when Lampard is not using him correctly though. When Lampard played him as the central attacking midfielder he was making goals and assists in every game he played. This is on Lampard, he's playing our new signings out of position and they look clueless, that's not their fault. Werner scored over 30 goals last season as a striker, now he's putting in crosses for Giroud to equalize are you kidding me?

Are you aware that he has 3 wingers unavailable due to injuries? 

There's no blame game here, these are unfortunate circumstances for both. 

3 minutes ago, TheSage said:

Did you even read my post? I didn't say we shouldn't buy players with potential. Spending such big money on potential when you can never be sure the potential will develop is not a great strategy in my book

Only time will tell if you're right or wrong. 

1 minute ago, Gol15 said:

That's only when Lampard is not using him correctly though. When Lampard played him as the central attacking midfielder he was making goals and assists in every game he played. This is on Lampard, he's playing our new signings out of position and they look clueless, that's not their fault. Werner scored over 30 goals last season as a striker, now he's putting in crosses for Giroud to equalize are you kidding me?

Sorry to say but you are way off. Harvertz has been struggeling for a while now and he played in the middle plenty of times. It was really only vs Krasnodar and today that he played as a RW.

Werner has always played off a main striker for Germany and Leipzig. He was never a guy that lead the line.

1 minute ago, Gol15 said:

That's only when Lampard is not using him correctly though. When Lampard played him as the central attacking midfielder he was making goals and assists in every game he played. This is on Lampard, he's playing our new signings out of position and they look clueless, that's not their fault. Werner scored over 30 goals last season as a striker, now he's putting in crosses for Giroud to equalize are you kidding me?

Both of them have been really poor tonight, but they're failing in the basics. 

I'm talking about a simple pass that he failed to complete, same as Werner who is far away from impress.

Again, that's my opinion and others may see different things, I have no problem with that. I believe for 80m we need to get a better product.

Looking like exactly what he is, a young player who has potential and possibly moved country too early. Danger is his confidence could get shattered. We will have to have patience with him otherwise we could end up looking at a DeBruyne situation and saying if only in three years time.

1 minute ago, reparto corse said:

Sorry to say but you are way off. Harvertz has been struggeling for a while now and he played in the middle plenty of times. It was really only vs Krasnodar and today that he played as a RW.

Werner has always played off a main striker for Germany and Leipzig. He was never a guy that lead the line.

He played his first game as a freaking right side midfielder, that was against Brighton. Then he played as the RW against Spurs, and as a CM against Burnley and Leeds. That's at least 5-6 games where he was played out of position in one way or another with the games you included, for a new player Lampard has taken him around far too much.

As the attacking midfielder he has made either a goal or an assist in all games he played in the PL part from the game against Man Utd where he played only 45 minutes and where we had a formation with 3 at the back.

Werner is more efficient as a striker even with us he has shown that. As a striker he played only 2 games for us and he has scored 2 goals and made 2 assists. As a winger he played now 9 games and has scored also 2 goals and has 2 assists, clearly much more secure as a striker than as a winger, he's also adjusting to a new league and in a new club but Lampard has been using him as a winger on both sides of the pitch now...

Is it so surprising that the new players can't deliver when the manager is just playing them wherever suits him and not where they are at their best? I think not, both Kai and Timo are professionals and they clearly want to be in this club but you can't expect them to just change their whole game in 3 months.

 

2 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

He played his first game as a freaking right side midfielder, that was against Brighton. Then he played as the RW against Spurs, and as a CM against Burnley and Leeds. That's at least 5-6 games where he was played out of position in one way or another with the games you included, for a new player Lampard has taken him around far too much.

As the attacking midfielder he has made either a goal or an assist in all games he played in the PL part from the game against Man Utd where he played only 45 minutes and where we had a formation with 3 at the back.

Werner is more efficient as a striker even with us he has shown that. As a striker he played only 2 games for us and he has scored 2 goals and made 2 assists. As a winger he played now 9 games and has scored also 2 goals and has 2 assists, clearly much more secure as a striker than as a winger, he's also adjusting to a new league and in a new club but Lampard has been using him as a winger on both sides of the pitch now...

Is it so surprising that the new players can't deliver when the manager is just playing them wherever suits him and not where they are at their best? I think not, both Kai and Timo are professionals and they clearly want to be in this club but you can't expect them to just change their whole game in 3 months.

 

I don't think you quite understand it so I repeat it again.

Timo Werner has played off a main striker for Leipzig (mostly on the left cutting in while Poulsen was the CF) and the same for Germany. He isn't asked to "change his game", quite the opposite he is just supposed to do what he did in Germany. Unfortunately he has been very poor recently in terms of his finishing ability and missed plenty of chances.

Harvertz has played RW and even CF for Leverkusen so him helping out when our wingers are injured is normal and just what you would expect. Why are you blaming Lampard for this? What is he supposed to do when Ziyech, CHO and Pulisic are all out injured at the same time.

6 minutes ago, reparto corse said:

I don't think you quite understand it so I repeat it again.

Timo Werner has played off a main striker for Leipzig (mostly on the left cutting in while Poulsen was the CF) and the same for Germany. He isn't asked to "change his game", quite the opposite he is just supposed to do what he did in Germany. Unfortunately he has been very poor recently in terms of his finishing ability and missed plenty of chances.

Harvertz has played RW and even CF for Leverkusen so him helping out when our wingers are injured is normal and just what you would expect. Why are you blaming Lampard for this? What is he supposed to do when Ziyech, CHO and Pulisic are all out injured at the same time.

Good post. Playing out of position does not excuse how slow he is and how he loses the ball or misplaces passes. It can be argued that he will cost us goals if he plays centrally and loses the ball so carelessly. He really needs to step it up otherwise we will be looking at another terrible purchase. 

11 minutes ago, reparto corse said:

I don't think you quite understand it so I repeat it again.

Timo Werner has played off a main striker for Leipzig (mostly on the left cutting in while Poulsen was the CF) and the same for Germany. He isn't asked to "change his game", quite the opposite he is just supposed to do what he did in Germany. Unfortunately he has been very poor recently in terms of his finishing ability and missed plenty of chances.

Harvertz has played RW and even CF for Leverkusen so him helping out when our wingers are injured is normal and just what you would expect. Why are you blaming Lampard for this? What is he supposed to do when Ziyech, CHO and Pulisic are all out injured at the same time.

Both Werner and Havertz weren't as wide for their former clubs like they have been for us though. They are both being pushed far too wide and into crowded areas, that wasn't what they were doing at their previous clubs. Their starting position was wide, but once the attacks were in full flow, they would be moving into central positions. They also weren't as involved in the build up play either, most of the time they would be the ones finishing off these chances, not the ones being asked to create them. Havertz and Werner are much better with their off the ball movement and finishing rather than creating chances and build up play.

Edited December 12, 20205 yr by Scott Harris

Just now, TheSage said:

Good post. Playing out of position does not excuse how slow he is and how he loses the ball or misplaces passes. It can be argued that he will cost us goals if he plays centrally and loses the ball so carelessly. He really needs to step it up otherwise we will be looking at another terrible purchase. 

Too early IMO.

Havertz just had to deal with Covid and supposedly he had quite severe symptoms. Obviously Lampard has a better understanding of the player's fitness levels but considering how bad Havertz was today it seems playing Anjorin would have made more sense. Havertz deserves at least a whole season of "adjusting time" considering how late he arrived at Chelsea, the Covid infection and being forced into different positions. 

1 minute ago, reparto corse said:

I don't think you quite understand it so I repeat it again.

Timo Werner has played off a main striker for Leipzig (mostly on the left cutting in while Poulsen was the CF) and the same for Germany. He isn't asked to "change his game", quite the opposite he is just supposed to do what he did in Germany. Unfortunately he has been very poor recently in terms of his finishing ability and missed plenty of chances.

Harvertz has played RW and even CF for Leverkusen so him helping out when our wingers are injured is normal and just what you would expect. Why are you blaming Lampard for this? What is he supposed to do when Ziyech, CHO and Pulisic are all out injured at the same time.

You're missing the point, Lampard can by all means change the formation and play Giroud with Werner up front where Werner would play his natural game.

He has the players to do so:

Kovacic Kante Mount

          Havertz

   Giroud      Werner

But he puts Werner way out wide and then surprise Werner loses confidence over time... It's unfortunate but it's also due to how Lampard is using him. 

Havertz isn't a typical winger at all, yes he even scored around 5 goals as CF but that's what he does really he comes inside like an inside forward, his best game comes from being the AM and he has already shown for us that he can assist and score in that position. I don't think Lampard is getting the most out of Werner's strengths.

Havertz had the virus so I can't really blame Lampard there but Kai's basically just filling in the gaps right now, Mount is now being played in his most natural position as the AM to the left and he isn't doing much better than Havertz that is being played way out wide... Mount got most of his assists from corners anyway.