Kai Havertz

[yorkleyblue]

21 hours ago, Slojo said:

Playing Havertz over Kovacic makes sense, going forward he's a lot better and offers a dangerous goal threat. 

But it's great to have Kovacic as an option in certain games. 

I haven't seen anything yet that convinces me that that makes sense @Slojo 

As I have said many times, the lad might well turn out to be the best player in the world, as some claim he already is, but so far, for Chelsea, which is all I care about, he has just mostly been a bit pants, and a damaging liability on a couple of occasions. 

But then I haven't got the google skills or the in-depth graphic cut and paste knowledge to prove it with pretty pictures.

[jack_super_class]

1 hour ago, Spiller86 said:

Bit harsh in my view. Give him a bit of time to settle in and recover from the virus that's killed 1.5m people this year before writing him off. 

He did well in the opening games, he'll improve as well.

I'll also say that Mason Mount has done a great job of lifting his game to deal with the competition. He has gone to another level. The grass isn't always greener.

Im not writing him off, Im just saying he plays more like Ozil than he does Ballack.

[Slojo]

27 minutes ago, yorkleyblue said:

I haven't seen anything yet that convinces me that that makes sense @Slojo 

As I have said many times, the lad might well turn out to be the best player in the world, as some claim he already is, but so far, for Chelsea, which is all I care about, he has just mostly been a bit pants, and a damaging liability on a couple of occasions. 

But then I haven't got the google skills or the in-depth graphic cut and paste knowledge to prove it with pretty pictures.

Are you sure? If you want I can tag Gol and he can fill you in 😉

[Vagabond]

2 hours ago, EdinburghBlue said:

I think if you listen to Roy Keanes opinion on Pogba it’s not that he gets bullied or he thinks he’s a bad player, it’s that he isn’t consistent. That doesn’t constitute “hate” as you put it. Not sure if you’re getting confused between who Keane and Souness are. The latter is far from a fan. Keanes issue is around his attitude and his consistently, but he clearly rates him as a player as he stated literally a few months ago.

 

 

So you are saying that Keane disliking a player doesn't necessarily mean doesn't rate him? I can agree with that.
But you're also implying that Keane liking a player means that player doesn't get bullied at all. That is something you pulled out of your arse. Also, after years of training my eyes in the mountains of Tibet I'm also slowly starting to be able to tell Keane and Souness apart. Currently I'm working on doing the same with Evra and Cahill, but it's going to take a while.

[Gol15]

12 hours ago, Deino said:

I don't know why people heap so much expectation on a 21 year old. Let alone one that is living abroad for the first time experiencing a new culture and language.

It's really not fair, he was picked on when he was about to return from having covid, bu he played well against Sevilla (in fact he played well in all of our biggest wins this season so far) where he assisted for the first goal. Nobody came here to praise him after that game, then he was involved in the great buildup for our first goal against Leeds, but hey some just want to ignore reality and focus only on the negatives, that doesn't really paint the full picture, not even close actually.

Very typical that it somehow doesn't matter when he played well for some people here, they see what they want to see.

All things considered he has made a fine start here, imagine how some would feel if we had been Real Madrid and signed today's Hazard that has been of the biggest flops in the last few years... 

[Paddy]

On 06/12/2020 at 00:55, Deino said:

I give him 2 years of development before properly judging him. 

Perhaps I’m being naive, but for £70+ million, I was expecting a player that would be more ‘ready’ now than Havertz seems and certainly sooner than 2 years ?

I get that he’s young and still learning/developing, I understand that he’s settling into a new country and perhaps the fastest and best football league in the world, I realise that he’s had COVID and is still, perhaps, suffering some issues as a consequence and above all, it wasn’t his decision to be priced at tens of millions he cost nor did he hold a gun to Chelsea’s head  to pay that, but I must out of touch , £70+ million for potential ?

Fingers crossed he fulfils that potential and FYI , I’m happy that he’s ours so no need for pages of stats to show how wrong I am - thank you .

[Spiller86]

8 hours ago, jack_super_class said:

Im not writing him off, Im just saying he plays more like Ozil than he does Ballack.

See that reads like writing him off to me haha. Maybe we have different views of Ozil!

[bisright1]

5 hours ago, Paddy said:

Perhaps I’m being naive, but for £70+ million, I was expecting a player that would be more ‘ready’ now than Havertz seems and certainly sooner than 2 years ?

I get that he’s young and still learning/developing, I understand that he’s settling into a new country and perhaps the fastest and best football league in the world, I realise that he’s had COVID and is still, perhaps, suffering some issues as a consequence and above all, it wasn’t his decision to be priced at tens of millions he cost nor did he hold a gun to Chelsea’s head  to pay that, but I must out of touch , £70+ million for potential ?

Fingers crossed he fulfils that potential and FYI , I’m happy that he’s ours so no need for pages of stats to show how wrong I am - thank you .

When people say potential, it means "he has all the ingredients to be world class and he just needs to get up to speed with a new league". 

The expectation by ALL those people is that he definitely will. 

He has a fantastic touch, he runs with the ball, he can pick a pass, he can tackle, head. He does everything. 

He looks to me like someone who can be world class. Our best player. But right now it's just not clicking. I genuinely think he looks like a world class player having an off night. Rather than an average player. 

If he keeps looking like that for the rest of the season, I'll get nervous. But for now I'm being patient. 

 

[Paddy]

25 minutes ago, bisright1 said:

When people say potential, it means "he has all the ingredients to be world class and he just needs to get up to speed with a new league". 

The expectation by ALL those people is that he definitely will. 

He has a fantastic touch, he runs with the ball, he can pick a pass, he can tackle, head. He does everything. 

He looks to me like someone who can be world class. Our best player. But right now it's just not clicking. I genuinely think he looks like a world class player having an off night. Rather than an average player. 

If he keeps looking like that for the rest of the season, I'll get nervous. But for now I'm being patient. 

 

Well ‘they’, ALL those people, may well be correct in their expectations that he definitely will, but right now, for me, it’s a definite maybe 🤔 

 

[just]

IMO the only thing that can stop Kai Havertz being a colossus for us is Kai Havertz. Been a long time since I have been this excited by a new signing.

He could be Jack Grealish on steroids. Look at him people. Big, incredibly silky touch, creativity and invention, loves going fowards, has an eye for a goal, he has swagger. And German. Big. A big German. Only 21. I feel like our Italian friends felt when we signed Jorginho, only Havertz is miles better.

Like many players before him he needs to get to grips with the speed and physical side of the EPL. And I think, with experience, he will because he is 21 and a giant German. And, unlike Paul Pogba, who as we all now know is simply a big, strong Frenchman, he has a football brain.

The unknown with Havertz is his own mentality. Does he have the attitude? Does he have the desire? Does he want it? If he does we are on winner here folks because in terms of natural and physical ability he has all the tools at his disposal.

 

[Deino]

6 hours ago, Paddy said:

Perhaps I’m being naive, but for £70+ million, I was expecting a player that would be more ‘ready’ now than Havertz seems and certainly sooner than 2 years ?

I get that he’s young and still learning/developing, I understand that he’s settling into a new country and perhaps the fastest and best football league in the world, I realise that he’s had COVID and is still, perhaps, suffering some issues as a consequence and above all, it wasn’t his decision to be priced at tens of millions he cost nor did he hold a gun to Chelsea’s head  to pay that, but I must out of touch , £70+ million for potential ?

Fingers crossed he fulfils that potential and FYI , I’m happy that he’s ours so no need for pages of stats to show how wrong I am - thank you .

The reactions are almost identical to Pulisic's last season. The moment Pulisic hits form, the criticisms started to decrease. 

I think Havertz can do the same. 

[Scott Harris]

50 minutes ago, Deino said:

The reactions are almost identical to Pulisic's last season. The moment Pulisic hits form, the criticisms started to decrease. 

I think Havertz can do the same. 

It's slightly different though. Pulisic wasn't playing as much as Havertz, so the criticism was even more harsh for Pulisic than it is for Havertz.

It may have been better if Lampard took the same approach with Havertz. With Pulisic, Lampard eased him into the team, which I think did a world of good for him. Lampard basically took all of the pressure off Pulisic and put it on himself. It gave Pulisic plenty of time to settle, and then Lampard unleashed him against Burnley and Pulisic has gotten better ever since. 

[sonic90]

I just don't see it at the moment, from everything I've seen so far I'd say I was more impressed and excited by RLC. If he was a £30m backup I'd still be unimpressed and hoping he improves to that value.

[Argo]

16 hours ago, Paddy said:

Perhaps I’m being naive, but for £70+ million, I was expecting a player that would be more ‘ready’ now than Havertz seems and certainly sooner than 2 years ?

I get that he’s young and still learning/developing, I understand that he’s settling into a new country and perhaps the fastest and best football league in the world, I realise that he’s had COVID and is still, perhaps, suffering some issues as a consequence and above all, it wasn’t his decision to be priced at tens of millions he cost nor did he hold a gun to Chelsea’s head  to pay that, but I must out of touch , £70+ million for potential ?

Fingers crossed he fulfils that potential and FYI , I’m happy that he’s ours so no need for pages of stats to show how wrong I am - thank you .

He may have cost £75m but no youngster unless your names Messi or Pele is immune from up/down type trajectory's at development age, and then add the fact he caught a virus that caused the world to grind to a halt. James, Mount and Hudson Odoi were part of youth set ups dominating in ways not seen in our lifetimes yet they've had their struggles since coming in the first team, especially the latter. 

Although that said, in terms of the short term he shouldn't be in the starting Xl, on merit Kova is defiently the better pic right now.

[evissy]

I think Frank wants to really blood in Havertz to English football. When Havertz is on we are winning games so that is not a risk. He is not giving up goals although he makes mistakes with the ball here and there. It is understandable. 

He needs a run of games in a more central role I think although he is pretty capably in the wings too. 

You can always throw in Kovacic to anyone situation. Our squad depth is pretty impressive barring a couple of key injuries. 

[Guest Sindre]

I will give him plenty of time to prove himself.

But obviously disappointing that he couldn't shine against a team like Krasondar either.
I think everyone have been underwhelmed by what they've seen so far but early days thankfully.

 

[Zeta]

It will probably take him at least a few weeks, if not longer to recover fitness after having covid, I think he was one who had a lot of fatigue as a symptom, according got something i read yesterday.

[Deino]

8 hours ago, sonic90 said:

I just don't see it at the moment, from everything I've seen so far I'd say I was more impressed and excited by RLC. If he was a £30m backup I'd still be unimpressed and hoping he improves to that value.

RLC at his age was exciting but RLC also came with a ridiculous amount of injuries with him and a frail body.

[Paddy]

10 hours ago, Deino said:

The reactions are almost identical to Pulisic's last season. The moment Pulisic hits form, the criticisms started to decrease. 

I think Havertz can do the same. 

Just to be clear and for the avoidance of any doubt, I don’t believe that I am levelling any criticism at Havertz, so if you think I am then, I apologise and for the record, it isn’t my intention to do so as part of this particular thread.

I was responding to your earlier post where you said that it would take 2 years of further development before Havertz could be judged and my reply was that for £70+ million I expected more right now - I’ve qualified it and cited that I am most likely being naive and out of touch with the current footballing market values, I’ve factored in his age, his new country/team issues, his COVID problem, he didn’t set his transfer value, etc, but I haven’t said he will or won’t be a great - time will tell us that.

Once more for the record, I hope and expect Havertz to come good - my issue is for the money he cost, I’m currently somewhat disappointed .

 

[Deino]

8 minutes ago, Paddy said:

Just to be clear and for the avoidance of any doubt, I don’t believe that I am levelling any criticism at Havertz, so if you think I am then, I apologise and for the record, it isn’t my intention to do so as part of this particular thread.

I was responding to your earlier post where you said that it would take 2 years of further development before Havertz could be judged and my reply was that for £70+ million I expected more right now - I’ve qualified it and cited that I am most likely being naive and out of touch with the current footballing market values, I’ve factored in his age, his new country/team issues, his COVID problem, he didn’t set his transfer value, etc, but I haven’t said he will or won’t be a great - time will tell us that.

Once more for the record, I hope and expect Havertz to come good - my issue is for the money he cost, I’m currently somewhat disappointed .

 

Don't worry about it. The criticism has been fair it's just the expectation that came with such a high transfer fee is going to be huge. I understand that much. 

That being the case, I think we need to give him more time. He's still a young lad getting to grips with a new league + aftereffects of covid. He's not even played 10 games for us yet and people already expected him to be contender for player of the year. 

[yorkleyblue]

Just now, Deino said:

Don't worry about it. The criticism has been fair it's just the expectation that came with such a high transfer fee is going to be huge. I understand that much. 

That being the case, I think we need to give him more time. He's still a young lad getting to grips with a new league + aftereffects of covid. He's not even played 10 games for us yet and people already expected him to be contender for player of the year. 

I think that the issue is really with some twat who claimed Havertz is already one of our best players and then doubled down with graphs and google-stats when I and some others said that the player hadn't actually done anything in a Blue shirt to justify that hyperbolic bullsh*t.  Which then generated another tsunami of cut-and-paste statistics and pretty pictures.

[Paddy]

3 minutes ago, yorkleyblue said:

I think that the issue is really with some twat who claimed Havertz is already one of our best players and then doubled down with graphs and google-stats when I and some others said that the player hadn't actually done anything in a Blue shirt to justify that hyperbolic bullsh*t.  Which then generated another tsunami of cut-and-paste statistics and pretty pictures.

For me, all the stats and graphic displays don’t really mean anything - I realise I’m old and out of touch, but I’m used to watching a sporting event and forming an opinion, I couldn’t specifically prove why, for instance, Mason Mount is such a talent, I couldn’t  say nor am I interested in how many times he touched the ball, headed the ball, passed the ball (forwards) or (backwards) , how many kms he’s run,  nor how fast or how far and at what % completion success rate - all the statistical analysis in the world won’t change or alter the opinion I formed whilst watching the boy play.

I don’t deny that the statistical side of the game has its place to those who ‘understand it’ , but there in lies the rub, it may well ‘make sense’ to some (or at least they would have us believe it does)  but they use it like a bludgeon to try and prove a point and presenting me with a factoid full of %’s is almost like asking me to translate Russian into English - I don’t get it and frankly, I’m less than interested ?

Smacks to me of Hans Christian Anderson’s parable , “The Kings New Clothes” ?

[Spiller86]

27 minutes ago, yorkleyblue said:

I think that the issue is really with some twat who claimed Havertz is already one of our best players and then doubled down with graphs and google-stats when I and some others said that the player hadn't actually done anything in a Blue shirt to justify that hyperbolic bullsh*t.  Which then generated another tsunami of cut-and-paste statistics and pretty pictures.

I've said for a while that whoscored.com has ruined a generation of fans who I feel like don't actually watch anymore they just wait for the stats afterwards.

He's been serviceable but I've no doubt we paid for potential, what he might be in 3 seasons time, rather than what he is now. He's got to learn to really assert himself physically before he can really hit his peak. He's 6'3 and plays like he is 5'4. But that will come in time.

What's most hilarious is watching Mount doing a Drogba and the competition driving him to another level such that he makes the big money signing seem ordinary by comparison. Every time we signed a new striker Didier would just develop another string to his bow and Mount has done the same first few months of this season. So Havertz might be worth it just for that.

[Valerie]

7 minutes ago, Paddy said:

For me, all the stats and graphic displays don’t really mean anything - I realise I’m old and out of touch, but I’m used to watching a sporting event and forming an opinion, I couldn’t specifically prove why, for instance, Mason Mount is such a talent, I couldn’t  say nor am I interested in how many times he touched the ball, headed the ball, passed the ball (forwards) or (backwards) , how many kms he’s run,  nor how fast or how far and at what % completion success rate - all the statistical analysis in the world won’t change or alter the opinion I formed whilst watching the boy play.

I don’t deny that the statistical side of the game has its place to those who ‘understand it’ , but there in lies the rub, it may well ‘make sense’ to some (or at least they would have us believe it does)  but they use it like a bludgeon to try and prove a point and presenting me with a factoid full of %’s is almost like asking me to translate Russian into English - I don’t get it and frankly, I’m less than interested ?

Smacks to me of Hans Christian Anderson’s parable , “The Kings New Clothes” ?

Sheez @Paddy, you actually watch a match? How 20th century! 

I'm stuck there as well, so I can confidently predict based on absolutely nothing except their nationality, that both our Germans will become a force to be reckoned with. 

[dkw]

1 hour ago, Paddy said:

I realise I’m old and out of touch, but I’m used to watching a sporting event and forming an opinion, I couldn’t specifically prove why, for instance, Mason Mount is such a talent, I couldn’t  say nor am I interested in how many times he touched the ball, headed the ball, passed the ball (forwards) or (backwards) , how many kms he’s run,  nor how fast or how far and at what % completion success rate - all the statistical analysis in the world won’t change or alter the opinion I formed whilst watching the boy play.

Wait, wait, wait...so let me get this right....you form your opinions from actually watching a footballer play actual football rather than be told by some random of t`internet how many half touches he had, his expected pirouettes v his actual pirouettes, whether he took the optimal route to the stadium etc etc...blah blah..

Blimey, get with the programme grandad.... its all about those stats now