Kai Havertz

[Gol15]

35 minutes ago, Vagabond said:

Well, you probably know that Mount is overrated on this board so if he makes a pass it will be world class a lot sooner than if Jorgi does the same because of confirmation bias. Same as if he has a mare, there will still be people that disagree, because they like his "energy" or something.

I'm not sure if we can ever erase all kinds of biases, I have seen people bashing Jorginho for "passing sideways" even though he had made the most passes into the final third while at the same time Kante keeping it simple and actually passing sideways for a few games was mindblowing for those same people, so yes the narratives and reactions don't really depend on what a player did but more on who that player was and how a person wants to feel about him.

I believe that we should support the team equally. We might not agree on who's in the best form but it wouldn't hurt to give everybody a fair chance. People don't think about it but we actually had Kepa playing most of the time for 2 seasons in a row, yet out of nowhere Havertz was bashed here for no real reason after missing some games due to having c19. Instead of bashing a new player how about we support him, specially since he had the virus and since he's a young player with a huge talent.

I don't even think people are aware of the fact that there are some out there who were pretty healthy before getting the virus and didn't need to go to the hospital at all, but after they were tested negative and some time had passed their lives got much much worse, but I guess asking for common sense and sympathy is too much these days, after all Pulisic was being bashed way before he ever stepped on the pitch for the first time for us...

[Vagabond]

3 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

I'm not sure if we can ever erase all kinds of biases, I have seen people bashing Jorginho for "passing sideways" even though he had made the most passes into the final third while at the same time Kante keeping it simple and actually passing sideways for a few games was mindblowing for those same people, so yes the narratives and reactions don't really depend on what a player did but more on who that player was and how a person wants to feel about him.

I believe that we should support the team equally. We might not agree on who's in the best form but it wouldn't hurt to give everybody a fair chance. People don't think about it but we actually had Kepa playing most of the time for 2 seasons in a row, yet out of nowhere Havertz was bashed here for no real reason after missing some games due to having c19. Instead of bashing a new player how about we support him, specially since he had the virus and since he's a young player with a huge talent.

I don't even think people are aware of the fact that there are some out there who were pretty healthy before getting the virus and didn't need to go to the hospital at all, but after they were tested negative and some time had passed their lives got much much worse, but I guess asking for common sense and sympathy is too much these days, after all Pulisic was being bashed way before he ever stepped on the pitch for the first time for us...

This is something I can agree on. I just find it annoying that every touch from certain players is close to world class, but other players doing the same goes along with a "meh, I'll just wait for his next mistake and lean into him really hard then". RLC vs Barkley two seasons ago for instance, or Mount vs Jorgi this season. I would never sh*t on a player just because I prefer another on his position, or act like he did well when he clearly didn't. This works for a while, but the truth is on the pitch and as soon as we play a strong (or very strong) side those favourites can't deliver on the level others are trying to convince me they are.

[dkw]

45 minutes ago, Vagabond said:

Too many questions and a wrong statement at the end. He went on when we were up 2:0 against Sevilla and made quite a few mistakes then. You should probably rewatch that game. Also, believe what you will I made a factual statement that wasn't intended to change your mind.

Where did I say he started I that game? What factual statement did you make exactly?

So, do you think mason mount is good enough to be playing for us as we fight for a title? 

 

[Nibs]

30 minutes ago, dkw said:

Where did I say he started I that game? What factual statement did you make exactly?

So, do you think mason mount is good enough to be playing for us as we fight for a title? 

 

Regardless of whether Vagabond thinks mount is good enough, thankfully he's not involved in selecting the team. Lamps clearly sees what Mount brings to the team and that's what matters.

I did think Mount would have to battle more for his place this season and he may well still have that in the future, but right now he is giving us so much more than Havertz and there is little danger of Mount being dropped or rotated in the "big" games. 

[Vagabond]

53 minutes ago, dkw said:

Where did I say he started I that game? What factual statement did you make exactly?

So, do you think mason mount is good enough to be playing for us as we fight for a title? 

 

What's also really annoying that you're trying to mask your opinion behind questions rather than formulate them as statements. If you have an opinion, you're free to post it, then we can talk about it. But posing 8 or so short questions and asking me to write essays while not offering anything yourself is nothing I will respond to.

@Nibs
What a cute attempt of moral support, without actually answering my post. Colour me impressed. 😅

Edited December 6, 2020 by Vagabond

[dkw]

And whats interesting is your continuous attempt to not answer the questions. My opinion is mason mount is integral to the way we play and us one of the most important players on our team. He has proven this worth all season, has controlled games from the start and has big impacts coming of the bench, all this by an academy graduate at such a young age is incredible. The way he has handled this, plus the pathetic and Unwarranted attacks on him by some so called Chelsea fans shows how mentally strong he is.

Now, what's your opinion on him.

[Nibs]

17 minutes ago, Vagabond said:

What's also really annoying that you're trying to mask your opinion behind questions rather than formulate them as statements. If you have an opinion, you're free to post it, then we can talk about it. But posing 8 or so short questions and asking me to write essays while not offering anything yourself is nothing I will respond to.

@Nibs
What a cute attempt of moral support, without actually answering my post. Colour me impressed. 😅

Didn't see that your post required any answers?

I do find it amusing though that Gol15 liked your post which contained the line "or act like he did well when he clearly didn't" 

when he does it all the time regarding certain players!

 

 

[Gol15]

16 minutes ago, Nibs said:

Didn't see that your post required any answers?

I do find it amusing though that Gol15 liked your post which contained the line "or act like he did well when he clearly didn't" 

when he does it all the time regarding certain players!

 

 

Me not having a knee-jerk reaction to a player that just had his second start in more than a month is more reasonable than choosing to bash him, I only see you popping out when there is a player to bash so you are by no means morally superior to me here.

In addition to that I am free to like a post even if let's say I'm different from the post that I like, so I see no issues here. If anything I think that both Kai and Mount are world-class talents and that it would be hard to find better than them on their positions so my view may differ from someone else but that doesn't stop me from liking what a person has said. Not that you would know anything about it, people with a constant agenda don't even care what is said, even if I had said something amazing a person like you would never like my post just because it's me posting it, that much is clear and it speaks volumes about just how different you are from me.

[Vagabond]

27 minutes ago, Nibs said:

Didn't see that your post required any answers?

I do find it amusing though that Gol15 liked your post which contained the line "or act like he did well when he clearly didn't" 

when he does it all the time regarding certain players!

For it to be a real circlejerk you need at least another person since two people can't really form a circle my friend. This way it's cute.

[Liam]

I like Kai. He has an ethereal presence which is rare nowadays - something similar to Liam Brady back in the day. I'm interested in watching him develop. 

[coco]

32 minutes ago, Liam said:

I like Kai. He has an ethereal presence which is rare nowadays - something similar to Liam Brady back in the day. I'm interested in watching him develop. 

bloody good shout, both lefties as well.

[Vagabond]

1 hour ago, dkw said:

And whats interesting is your continuous attempt to not answer the questions. My opinion is mason mount is integral to the way we play and us one of the most important players on our team. He has proven this worth all season, has controlled games from the start and has big impacts coming of the bench, all this by an academy graduate at such a young age is incredible. The way he has handled this, plus the pathetic and Unwarranted attacks on him by some so called Chelsea fans shows how mentally strong he is.

Now, what's your opinion on him.

Didn't see your post there, sorry.
My opinion on Mount is that he tends to get bullied by physically strong midfielders and doesn't offer much defensively. I am also not convinced by his decision making in the final third, his first touch and his passing. Other than that he's a fine player, he works hard, identifies with the club, has a decent shot and has good vision. He's a good lad, but nowhere near world class.

But fans are also much more patient with him than they have been with other players. If he has a bad game there's all kinds of excuses.

[True Blue23]

1 hour ago, Vagabond said:

Didn't see your post there, sorry.
My opinion on Mount is that he tends to get bullied by physically strong midfielders and doesn't offer much defensively. I am also not convinced by his decision making in the final third, his first touch and his passing. Other than that he's a fine player, he works hard, identifies with the club, has a decent shot and has good vision. He's a good lad, but nowhere near world class.

But fans are also much more patient with him than they have been with other players. If he has a bad game there's all kinds of excuses.

I would have agreed with you on most of these aspects at the start of the season, but it seems he has significantly improved this year. Especially the bullying part has gotten better. He doesn't get pushed around as easily anymore. As for the defending part, I feel like he has improved in that aspect as well.

His decision making and his passing in the final third are still a bit hit and miss at times, but now that he plays deeper that's not as much of an issue for me as it used to be. And for a number 8 he's actually pretty decent in those areas.

He certainly isn't world class yet, but I doubt anyone is seriously arguing that. I think people are just excited about a young academy lad playing regularly and justifying his managers decision with good performances.

Also I think because he gets a lot of stick on Twitter and from England fans, people here feel kind of protective, which leeds to a more positive and less critical attitude towards him when compared to other players.

[PhilH930]

Give him time.  You know there is just so much more there, and it will come.  There are glimpses of it, and unfortunately a few mistakes as he gets up to speed with the game.  I can see Frank shifting him back our RW again with Ziyech out to accommodate Kante - Kova - Mount.

These are good problems to have.  This guy has the quality - just needs 3-6 months to settle now he is fit.

[dkw]

10 hours ago, Vagabond said:

Didn't see your post there, sorry.
My opinion on Mount is that he tends to get bullied by physically strong midfielders and doesn't offer much defensively. I am also not convinced by his decision making in the final third, his first touch and his passing. Other than that he's a fine player, he works hard, identifies with the club, has a decent shot and has good vision. He's a good lad, but nowhere near world class.

But fans are also much more patient with him than they have been with other players. If he has a bad game there's all kinds of excuses.

I havent seen him bullied once this season, he battled with the big Tottenham midfield 3 of Sissoko, Hojbjerg and Ndombele last weekend and more than held his own, and thats quite possibly the strongest 3 in the league at the moment. 

[icecoolguy22]

Still in progress which is Not surprising at all, remember even Mount had his struggles last season, and he's been at the club forever. By form, Kovacic should start against Everton, and he deserves it, this is exactly what the managers want where everyone step up and fight for the spot.

[EdinburghBlue]

1 hour ago, dkw said:

I havent seen him bullied once this season, he battled with the big Tottenham midfield 3 of Sissoko, Hojbjerg and Ndombele last weekend and more than held his own, and thats quite possibly the strongest 3 in the league at the moment. 

Funny how differently people see the game. Roy Keane of all people always talks about how much he likes/loves Mount as a player. Roy Keane of all people liking a player who gets bullied so easily in the centre of the park “apparently”, I highly doubt it.

[Vagabond]

@dkw
It was Kovacic who ran the show against Tottenham while Kanté was fighting their midfield, not Mason. Mount didn't contribute much defensively at all in that game and was the worst of our midfielders. Not according to the matchday thread though, where people were calling out both Mateo and N'Golo in the first half while Mason bottling our best attack almost went unnoticed (if Barkley would've passed to Timo instead of Hakim he would've been crucified, called slow in the head, not chelsea material etcetc). This is exactly what I mean with annoying confirmation bias. Different standards for different players. As I've said, this can only work for a while.
Now imagine fans giving Kai the amount of time they gave Mason. It's a crazy thought, I know.

@Edinburgh Blue
That's a strange kind of argument and an appeal to authority. By that logic Paul Pogba gets bullied in midfield, because Roy Keane hates him. Since otherwise he wouldn't hate him, no?

Edited December 7, 2020 by Vagabond

[Vagabond]

11 hours ago, True Blue23 said:

Also I think because he gets a lot of stick on Twitter and from England fans, people here feel kind of protective, which leeds to a more positive and less critical attitude towards him when compared to other players.

I understand this and I agree with you. It's just that he's getting protection other players aren't. If it's about England fans that want Foden or Graelish to play and sh*t on Mason because of that, then by all means, defend the lad, he's one of our own. But we're all CFC fans here (I assume), so I don't think we need to be more protective of Mount here than any other player and we certainly don't have to ignore his flaws.

[Imran_CFC]

30 minutes ago, Vagabond said:

@dkw
It was Kovacic who ran the show against Tottenham while Kanté was fighting their midfield, not Mason. Mount didn't contribute much defensively at all in that game and was the worst of our midfielders. Not according to the matchday thread though, where people were calling out both Mateo and N'Golo in the first half while Mason bottling our best attack almost went unnoticed (if Barkley would've passed to Timo instead of Hakim he would've been crucified, called slow in the head, not chelsea material etcetc). This is exactly what I mean with annoying confirmation bias. Different standards for different players. As I've said, this can only work for a while.
Now imagine fans giving Kai the amount of time they gave Mason. It's a crazy thought, I know.

@Edinburgh Blue
That's a strange kind of argument and an appeal to authority. By that logic Paul Pogba gets bullied in midfield, because Roy Keane hates him. Since otherwise he wouldn't hate him, no?

I don't think you can compare how Barkley is treated to Mason, Barkley is now a premier League veteran with close to a decade worth of experience in the PL whereas this is Mason's 2nd season in the PL and is still a work in progress therefore the expectations of Barkley are different to those of Mason. In regards to the Tottenham game I would say in the first half we had a midfield battle which was fairly even and both teams had decent opportunities to surge ahead however in the 2nd half we absolutely dominated the midfield so I am unsure where the criticism for Mount is coming from. To call Mount a defensive liability in a game against the league leaders where we didn't concede seems a little harsh.

I take your point that defensively he may have been our weakest Central midfielder but alternatively he was the most attacking of out Central midfielders and had it not been for Lloris he wouldve been the difference maker in a very tight game.

[Vagabond]

1 hour ago, Imran_CFC said:

I don't think you can compare how Barkley is treated to Mason, Barkley is now a premier League veteran with close to a decade worth of experience in the PL whereas this is Mason's 2nd season in the PL and is still a work in progress therefore the expectations of Barkley are different to those of Mason. In regards to the Tottenham game I would say in the first half we had a midfield battle which was fairly even and both teams had decent opportunities to surge ahead however in the 2nd half we absolutely dominated the midfield so I am unsure where the criticism for Mount is coming from. To call Mount a defensive liability in a game against the league leaders where we didn't concede seems a little harsh.

I take your point that defensively he may have been our weakest Central midfielder but alternatively he was the most attacking of out Central midfielders and had it not been for Lloris he wouldve been the difference maker in a very tight game.

Well I certainly wasn't one of the people that were calling out Mason on single mistakes, not on this board and generally not online, since I don't use any of that social media garbage (twitter, facebook, instagram and such induce brainrot imho). I discuss it with my brother mostly, who's a massive Mount fan too and I feel he's always exaggerating when Mason does well. I thought Mount was very average against Spuds and that both Kovacic as well as Kante would recieve a lot of criticism if they were in his place. Mateo was arguably our best player on the pitch that day, yet people still said they would've prefered Kai to start, for instance. Mason on the other hand seems to have a free pass and only has to deliver average performances to be set in stone as a starter for most. In my mind that is blatant favouritism, has nothing to do with merit and I'm sick and tired of reading how much people like the "energy" of Mount. I know I'm repeating myself here, but this only works for a while and until we play against the really strong sides like Liverpool, PSG etc. Then it will be excuse time again when Bayerns second choice leftback Davies destroys Mount even though he's younger than Mason...

[Imran_CFC]

26 minutes ago, Vagabond said:

Well I certainly wasn't one of the people that were calling out Mason on single mistakes, not on this board and generally not online, since I don't use any of that social media garbage (twitter, facebook, instagram and such induce brainrot imho). I discuss it with my brother mostly, who's a massive Mount fan too and I feel he's always exaggerating when Mason does well. I thought Mount was very average against Spuds and that both Kovacic as well as Kante would recieve a lot of criticism if they were in his place. Mateo was arguably our best player on the pitch that day, yet people still said they would've prefered Kai to start, for instance. Mason on the other hand seems to have a free pass and only has to deliver average performances to be set in stone as a starter for most. In my mind that is blatant favouritism, has nothing to do with merit and I'm sick and tired of reading how much people like the "energy" of Mount. I know I'm repeating myself here, but this only works for a while and until we play against the really strong sides like Liverpool, PSG etc. Then it will be excuse time again when Bayerns second choice leftback Davies destroys Mount even though he's younger than Mason...

I am sorry I don't quite understand your point about Social Media and Davies destroying Mason etc. I couldn't care less what is going on in the world of social media my point was focused on your points about Mason and there being double standards when judging him in comparison to Barkley. The standards will obviously be different due to the different stages of career they are at, Barkley should be at the peak of his powers considering his age and experience and rightly is judged more harshly in comparison to Mason.

In reference to your point about calls for Kova being dropped for Kai and the noises around that, firstly I am a huge Kovacic fan & if we were playing a CL final tomorrow my midfield would be Mount, Kante & Kova. However having said that I completely understand why people may want to replace Kova with Kai especially for games where teams park the bus it's because Kai and Mount offer a goal threat whereas Kante & Kova are more defensively biased. Against more defensive teams you would need 2 attacking 8's and 1 CDM whereas against better oppositions you would need 2 defensive minded Central midfielders and Mount who offers better balance then Kai.

This does not mean a player is inferior or superior to the other it is just about finding the right balance between defense and attack and at the moment Mount's play style is somewhere in between Kova and Kai therefore the other spot is contested between those 2.

 

[charierre]

15 minutes ago, Imran_CFC said:

I am sorry I don't quite understand your point about Social Media and Davies destroying Mason etc. I couldn't care less what is going on in the world of social media my point was focused on your points about Mason and there being double standards when judging him in comparison to Barkley. The standards will obviously be different due to the different stages of career they are at, Barkley should be at the peak of his powers considering his age and experience and rightly is judged more harshly in comparison to Mason.

In reference to your point about calls for Kova being dropped for Kai and the noises around that, firstly I am a huge Kovacic fan & if we were playing a CL final tomorrow my midfield would be Mount, Kante & Kova. However having said that I completely understand why people may want to replace Kova with Kai especially for games where teams park the bus it's because Kai and Mount offer a goal threat whereas Kante & Kova are more defensively biased. Against more defensive teams you would need 2 attacking 8's and 1 CDM whereas against better oppositions you would need 2 defensive minded Central midfielders and Mount who offers better balance then Kai.

This does not mean a player is inferior or superior to the other it is just about finding the right balance between defense and attack and at the moment Mount's play style is somewhere in between Kova and Kai therefore the other spot is contested between those 2.

 

Good post. I think we can all agree that to get into our squad you have to be a top player, it is at this point that the manager has to put the pieces together to make a team that he thinks will be best able to compete dependent on opposition. That is were balance comes in and how the manager wants to play, Mason's biggest asset is his energy and ability to be placed exactly were Frank wants him play and so will be the first in mind. 

[Slojo]

24 minutes ago, Imran_CFC said:

I am sorry I don't quite understand your point about Social Media and Davies destroying Mason etc. I couldn't care less what is going on in the world of social media my point was focused on your points about Mason and there being double standards when judging him in comparison to Barkley. The standards will obviously be different due to the different stages of career they are at, Barkley should be at the peak of his powers considering his age and experience and rightly is judged more harshly in comparison to Mason.

In reference to your point about calls for Kova being dropped for Kai and the noises around that, firstly I am a huge Kovacic fan & if we were playing a CL final tomorrow my midfield would be Mount, Kante & Kova. However having said that I completely understand why people may want to replace Kova with Kai especially for games where teams park the bus it's because Kai and Mount offer a goal threat whereas Kante & Kova are more defensively biased. Against more defensive teams you would need 2 attacking 8's and 1 CDM whereas against better oppositions you would need 2 defensive minded Central midfielders and Mount who offers better balance then Kai.

This does not mean a player is inferior or superior to the other it is just about finding the right balance between defense and attack and at the moment Mount's play style is somewhere in between Kova and Kai therefore the other spot is contested between those 2.

 

Playing Havertz over Kovacic makes sense, going forward he's a lot better and offers a dangerous goal threat. 

But it's great to have Kovacic as an option in certain games. 

[Vagabond]

40 minutes ago, Imran_CFC said:

I am sorry I don't quite understand your point about Social Media and Davies destroying Mason etc. I couldn't care less what is going on in the world of social media my point was focused on your points about Mason and there being double standards when judging him in comparison to Barkley. The standards will obviously be different due to the different stages of career they are at, Barkley should be at the peak of his powers considering his age and experience and rightly is judged more harshly in comparison to Mason.

In reference to your point about calls for Kova being dropped for Kai and the noises around that, firstly I am a huge Kovacic fan & if we were playing a CL final tomorrow my midfield would be Mount, Kante & Kova. However having said that I completely understand why people may want to replace Kova with Kai especially for games where teams park the bus it's because Kai and Mount offer a goal threat whereas Kante & Kova are more defensively biased. Against more defensive teams you would need 2 attacking 8's and 1 CDM whereas against better oppositions you would need 2 defensive minded Central midfielders and Mount who offers better balance then Kai.

This does not mean a player is inferior or superior to the other it is just about finding the right balance between defense and attack and at the moment Mount's play style is somewhere in between Kova and Kai therefore the other spot is contested between those 2.

 

My point was that I have the feeling people on this board are overrating Mason because of the over the board criticism he seems to get on social media ("Lampard's son" or something, at least that's what I read here). About the Barkley comparison; in my book, a mistake is a mistake and the result is the same. It doesn't matter to me how old the player is as long as he has enough playtime to find a rythm -which incidentally Mason had a lot more than Ross. Saying it's ok to have double-standards because it's an academy or young player we're talking about is making the whole "team picked on merit"-thing laughable.

Which leads me to the next point. If we play Kai (or Mason) the whole season and only bring on Kovacic against the strong sides, we are basically setting him up for failure. Not giving Mateo the necessary gametime to find a rythm only to throw him into matches against top sides is a bit much to ask, even though he performed admirably under such circumstances (Frank acknowledged that too). The game against Sevilla we had Jorgi (whos performance also went unnoticed), Kai and Kova. I wasn't really missing Mason when watching that game, so I don't really understand why his (or Kantés) starting spot should be set in stone.