Cities loss on Saturday could well have ramped up the pressure on him imo. He showed signs of pressure in his interview after Palace before Cities result.

Cause the board will likely look at it and simply say Brighton twice, Everton at home, Burnely at home. 8 points thrown away late on from winning positions that would have us 5 off City with a game in hand and very much in the title race.

I think its pretty clear the issue with attack stems from having built a team around quality wing backs, but then having no able backups has completely nullified us as an attacking threat. 

Lukaku has been pretty shocking, but he hasnt played a single game with James and Chilwell, and when they both start, we have created chances alot more. 

So the question is whether we are creating those chances because Lukaku isnt playing, or are we creating those chances because James and Chilwell are playing? 

Im leaning more towards the latter. 

We really shouldve gotten in quality wing back options in the summer, missing out on Hakimi has cost us a title charge in my opinion. 

Really hope its something we address in the summer, full backs are so important in todays game, and if we play 3 at tbe back, wing backs are even more crucial.

Putting square pegs in round holes is completely detrimental to how the atrack is functioning.

7 minutes ago, axman2526 said:

Cities loss on Saturday could well have ramped up the pressure on him imo. He showed signs of pressure in his interview after Palace before Cities result.

Cause the board will likely look at it and simply say Brighton twice, Everton at home, Burnely at home. 8 points thrown away late on from winning positions that would have us 5 off City with a game in hand and very much in the title race.

We were 18 points behind them last season after 26 games played, right now 13 points behind with a game less so we could be 10 points behind once we play our 26th game.
What's done is done, the squad needs to look towards making the gap "only" 10 points with a win in the next PL match and we're the defending CL winners so Tuchel should do the best he can to prepare the Lille test and also the League Cup final against Liverpool.

I think that the 8 point difference from last season would be an improvement, after all we lost as many games as them but we have more draws, sadly the injuries of our first choice full-backs had a huge impact on our season but not as much as Liverpool losing their defenders last season.

The season isn't over yet, some years back under Sarri we went on a bad run in late January-February when we lost against Arsenal and Man City without scoring a single goal and even Bournemouth trashed us and I had doubts we would recover from that but we did. It's time for the big boys to step up, we'll get James back before the season ends so even if we don't manage to challenge Man City we can still challenge Liverpool for the second spot because we only have Man United and possibly Arsenal/West Ham to look out for, Liverpool still has to play Man City, Arsenal, Man United, Spurs and also West Ham/Wolves so many more slips possible.

19 minutes ago, big blue said:

I think its pretty clear the issue with attack stems from having built a team around quality wing backs, but then having no able backups has completely nullified us as an attacking threat. 

Lukaku has been pretty shocking, but he hasnt played a single game with James and Chilwell, and when they both start, we have created chances alot more. 

So the question is whether we are creating those chances because Lukaku isnt playing, or are we creating those chances because James and Chilwell are playing? 

Im leaning more towards the latter. 

We really shouldve gotten in quality wing back options in the summer, missing out on Hakimi has cost us a title charge in my opinion. 

Really hope its something we address in the summer, full backs are so important in todays game, and if we play 3 at tbe back, wing backs are even more crucial.

Putting square pegs in round holes is completely detrimental to how the atrack is functioning.

I agree we are missing our WBs and so Lukaku might have done better.

I don't think James is the best RWB  though is decent and Chilwell I think is a converted left back so if we recruit quality replacements likely they will start.

We are still getting results due to Kovacic breaking defensive lines, Ziyech's trickery when he has support down the right and Havertz when he has the right players around him.

Early on in the season when both Chilwell and James were scoring I said great we are winning yet we need a centre forward that can score too, we still don't know if Lukaku is that striker.

15 minutes ago, strider6004 said:

I agree we are missing our WBs and so Lukaku might have done better.

I don't think James is the best RWB  though is decent and Chilwell I think is a converted left back so if we recruit quality replacements likely they will start.

We are still getting results due to Kovacic breaking defensive lines, Ziyech's trickery when he has support down the right and Havertz when he has the right players around him.

Early on in the season when both Chilwell and James were scoring I said great we are winning yet we need a centre forward that can score too, we still don't know if Lukaku is that striker.

They are champions league winners in those positions. 

James and Chilwell played 5 games together this season.

Norwich 7-0

Newcastle 3-0

Leicester 3-0

Juventus 4-0

Burnley 1-1 (shouldve been 5-0).

I dont think we are going to get fluid attacking performances with Azpi, alonso, or wingers out of position playing. We had 4 centre backs against Palace, theres no way the attack will function well in that setup. 

We need back up or rotation options that have a similar profile. 

Now we have to hope James coming back will be enough to kick us on until the end of the season, because it looks like Tuchel is running out of ideas to get this attack going with the players we have available. He seems to have tried everything, but its very difficult when we dont have full backs consistently delivering quality balls into the channels, and the box, and we dont have the athletism to stretch teams across the pitch to get a player free in the box. 

46 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

We were 18 points behind them last season after 26 games played, right now 13 points behind with a game less so we could be 10 points behind once we play our 26th game.
What's done is done, the squad needs to look towards making the gap "only" 10 points with a win in the next PL match and we're the defending CL winners so Tuchel should do the best he can to prepare the Lille test and also the League Cup final against Liverpool.

I think that the 8 point difference from last season would be an improvement, after all we lost as many games as them but we have more draws, sadly the injuries of our first choice full-backs had a huge impact on our season but not as much as Liverpool losing their defenders last season.

The season isn't over yet, some years back under Sarri we went on a bad run in late January-February when we lost against Arsenal and Man City without scoring a single goal and even Bournemouth trashed us and I had doubts we would recover from that but we did. It's time for the big boys to step up, we'll get James back before the season ends so even if we don't manage to challenge Man City we can still challenge Liverpool for the second spot because we only have Man United and possibly Arsenal/West Ham to look out for, Liverpool still has to play Man City, Arsenal, Man United, Spurs and also West Ham/Wolves so many more slips possible.

Yeah forget about the League cup.

For one Lille is very much the important game. We are not in a good place right now but we need to find a way to deal with Jonathan David and make our way through, hope we get back to a to the side we were last season and hope for a favorable draw. Then you never know.

The league cup comes at the wrong time. We are not going to get our best form back that quickly, apparently we are knackered after the CWC and Pool are flying. That plus Kepa vs long shots you know...

15 minutes ago, big blue said:

They are champions league winners in those positions. 

James and Chilwell played 5 games together this season.

Norwich 7-0

Newcastle 3-0

Leicester 3-0

Juventus 4-0

Burnley 1-1 (shouldve been 5-0).

I dont think we are going to get fluid attacking performances with Azpi, alonso, or wingers out of position playing. We had 4 centre backs against Palace, theres no way the attack will function well in that setup. 

We need back up or rotation options that have a similar profile. 

Now we have to hope James coming back will be enough to kick us on until the end of the season, because it looks like Tuchel is running out of ideas to get this attack going with the players we have available. He seems to have tried everything, but its very difficult when we dont have full backs consistently delivering quality balls into the channels, and the box, and we dont have the athletism to stretch teams across the pitch to get a player free in the box. 

In all those matches above Havertz was playing as the False 9, for me our forward with the best touch and movement.

Now not saying without James and Chilwell we would be winning more comfortably, it is a delicate balance.

Personally I would drop Lukaku and then try him once the Wbs are back in business. don't think TT will due to the politics of the £97m signing. 

5 minutes ago, strider6004 said:

In all those matches above Havertz was playing as the False 9, for me our forward with the best touch and movement.

Now not saying without James and Chilwell we would be winning more comfortably, it is a delicate balance.

Personally I would drop Lukaku and then try him once the Wbs are back in business. don't think TT will due to the politics of the £97m signing. 

Agreed my preference is Havertz as false 9 as well.

 

Ziyech

Mount

Werner/CHO/Pulisic

 

Havertz

Does anybody how playing Havertz as lw and Puli as cm help us defensively especially against transition  ?

Because it is so obvious that is probaly the only reason. Tuchel is not stupid, it is clear that Havertz is better in the middle but why insist on playing him wide.

19 minutes ago, strider6004 said:

In all those matches above Havertz was playing as the False 9, for me our forward with the best touch and movement.

Now not saying without James and Chilwell we would be winning more comfortably, it is a delicate balance.

Personally I would drop Lukaku and then try him once the Wbs are back in business. don't think TT will due to the politics of the £97m signing. 

Thats why i asked the question about Lukaku. Who knows if it would work with Lukaku in that system with those wing backs, becayse we havent been able to try it yet. 

I love Havertz, but you just said you wanted a centre forward to be amongst the goals even when Chilwell and James were scoring, but Havertz was only 1 in 5 in those fixtures too. 

So maybe not the goalscoring answer still. 

I just think the attacking problems stem from deeper positions. So I will hold off on overly critising Lukaku, and Tuchel, when the options we have in key areas arent remotely close to the teams we are aspiring to catch. 

3 minutes ago, big blue said:

Thats why i asked the question about Lukaku. Who knows if it would work with Lukaku in that system with those wing backs, becayse we havent been able to try it yet. 

I love Havertz, but you just said you wanted a centre forward to be amongst the goals even when Chilwell and James were scoring, but Havertz was only 1 in 5 in those fixtures too. 

So maybe not the goalscoring answer still. 

I just think the attacking problems stem from deeper positions. So I will hold off on overly critising Lukaku, and Tuchel, when the options we have in key areas arent remotely close to the teams we are aspiring to catch. 

I think it won't work at all. Part of the reason James and Chilwell were able to cause so much chaos was due to the fluidity and movement, James was able to pop up in poacher positions thanks the the fluid movement on the front three creating the space and drawing opposition player's away.

Even without Chilwell we were still pretty fluid and created a lot of chances against United, Everton, first half vs West Ham.

Lukaku and his staticness would just get in their way.

12 minutes ago, Argo said:

I think it won't work at all. Part of the reason James and Chilwell were able to cause so much chaos was due to the fluidity and movement, James was able to pop up in poacher positions thanks the the fluid movement on the front three creating the space and drawing opposition player's away.

Even without Chilwell we were still pretty fluid and created a lot of chances against United, Everton, first half vs West Ham.

Lukaku and his staticness would just get in their way.

You think but you dont know though. No one does. 

Surely Tuchel envisaged his best 11 when we signed him, would be a team containing James, Chilwell, and Lukaku? We havent had that luxury unfortunately, and we wont this season. The fact we were looking at Hakimi would indicate that this situation with the wing backs was always a fear for Tuchel going into the season. 

If you replace TAA and Robertson with Azpi and Alonso, i think that would have a pretty big knock on effect in the attack. 

Lukaku has been bad, if we sell him in the summer, i would be pretty happy at this point, however looking at the bigger picture, he is just a cog in an overall underperforming attack. If we sort out the full back areas, i think there's every chance Lukaku and the rest of the attackers would perform better.

6 minutes ago, big blue said:

You think but you dont know though. No one does. 

Surely Tuchel envisaged his best 11 when we signed him, would be a team containing James, Chilwell, and Lukaku? We havent had that luxury unfortunately, and we wont this season. The fact we were looking at Hakimi would indicate that this situation with the wing backs was always a fear for Tuchel going into the season. 

If you replace TAA and Robertson with Azpi and Alonso, i think that would have a pretty big knock on effect in the attack. 

Lukaku has been bad, if we sell him in the summer, i would be pretty happy at this point, however looking at the bigger picture, he is just a cog in an overall underperforming attack. If we sort out the full back areas, i think there's every chance Lukaku and the rest of the attackers would perform better.

With the bolded bit disagree, it's for me as clear as Rom being a tactical misfit when we signed him. He's not going to suddenly develop the elite level tactical brain and especially not the high level technical ability requited to work in the sort of football we played in those games you mentioned.

While I don't disagree they will be an improvement on Alonso and Azpi, I hold no hope of getting back to the fluid and enjoyable level of football we saw in the Autumn with Rom on the pitch.

33 minutes ago, Argo said:

With the bolded bit disagree, it's for me as clear as Rom being a tactical misfit when we signed him. He's not going to suddenly develop the elite level tactical brain and especially not the high level technical ability requited to work in the sort of football we played in those games you mentioned.

While I don't disagree they will be an improvement on Alonso and Azpi, I hold no hope of getting back to the fluid and enjoyable level of football we saw in the Autumn with Rom on the pitch.

It is literally just your opinion. I would hazard a guess Tuchel saw it differently in the summer. 

Just because you dont think something works on paper, doesn't mean it wouldnt work in practice. Football is complex. 

At the moment Lukaku being a good or bad fit, is pretty hypothetical we havent been able to put out our strongest side 2 games on the run since he arrived.  

I was all for selling Ziyech 6 weeks ago, now he is playing in his preferred position and he looks like the talisman we have been waiting for. 

 

 

25 minutes ago, big blue said:

It is literally just your opinion. I would hazard a guess Tuchel saw it differently in the summer. 

Just because you dont think something works on paper, doesn't mean it wouldnt work in practice. Football is complex. 

At the moment Lukaku being a good or bad fit, is pretty hypothetical we havent been able to put out our strongest side 2 games on the run since he arrived.  

I was all for selling Ziyech 6 weeks ago, now he is playing in his preferred position and he looks like the talisman we have been waiting for. 

It's not hypothetical when I'm using a decades worth of sample size. If we asked Jorginho to suddenly start playing like peak Yaya Toure it wouldn't be hypothetical to say before we've seen a second of that experiment that it would go hilariously bad.

Rom has not once in his career displayed the skillset or tactical intelligence to play in such a fluid system. Even Belgium play meh football with him as the focal point and they have two of the best players of this generation.

I mean if he suddenly develops the close control, tactical awareness (to constantly switch positions in the build up) and workrate needed to fit in to the system we saw in those games i'll hold my hands up but given it would literally be unprecedented for a player to change so drastically (especially at his age) I don't think I'm taking a stab in the dark personally. 

9 hours ago, strider6004 said:

I agree we are missing our WBs and so Lukaku might have done better.

I don't think James is the best RWB  though is decent and Chilwell I think is a converted left back so if we recruit quality replacements likely they will start.

We are still getting results due to Kovacic breaking defensive lines, Ziyech's trickery when he has support down the right and Havertz when he has the right players around him.

Early on in the season when both Chilwell and James were scoring I said great we are winning yet we need a centre forward that can score too, we still don't know if Lukaku is that striker.

Our wb is perfectly fine however Tuchel reluctance to open up at all concern me.  

We play either 4141 or 343 not 433. Our buildup is very slow and conservative. We played Havertz as lw maybe because pulisic is too direct. Pretty much all Tuchel decision is about protecting our midfield and defense against transition.

 

42 minutes ago, Bob stark said:

Our wb is perfectly fine however Tuchel reluctance to open up at all concern me.  

We play either 4141 or 343 not 433. Our buildup is very slow and conservative. We played Havertz as lw maybe because pulisic is too direct. Pretty much all Tuchel decision is about protecting our midfield and defense against transition.

 

Pretty much that; he is instructing the players to take low risks to prevent turnovers. This is why I don’t think any of our forward players are bad, it’s just a structural problem. Take Lukaku for example; his goals in his 1st matches when he was brilliant was from playing on the half turn and receiving the ball early. Tuchel has taken that away by having our defenders playing so high up into the opposition half. Against most defences in the PL who play with a low block against us, that denies Lukaku the space in which he thrives. Moving our defensive line while attacking back just by 10m would make a lot of difference.

36 minutes ago, ducavis said:

Pretty much that; he is instructing the players to take low risks to prevent turnovers. This is why I don’t think any of our forward players are bad, it’s just a structural problem. Take Lukaku for example; his goals in his 1st matches when he was brilliant was from playing on the half turn and receiving the ball early. Tuchel has taken that away by having our defenders playing so high up into the opposition half. Against most defences in the PL who play with a low block against us, that denies Lukaku the space in which he thrives. Moving our defensive line while attacking back just by 10m would make a lot of difference.

Agree with most of the thing that you said but for me Lukaku has been really bad, he barely moved against Palace. But honestly I don't care about Lukaku. I am more concerned why we play havertz as lw. Clearly yesterday 442 or 4231 suit all of our attacker, but we played 4141. It make no sense  offensively hence there has to be defensive consideration behind it.

There are so many more example of Tuchel really protecting our mid and defense. I can't remember against whom last season.We were 1/2 down against mid table team and we were chasing at the end of the game but we still have 

Dm

Cb - cb cb

I am really confused. Can somebody tell me why Tuchel play havertz as lw ?

 

 

Edited February 22, 20224 yr by Bob stark

I Think Tuchel needs to think about how to handle the attacking plays. Ether we keep playing conservatieve, no risk pass to  the forwards , keep preventing opponents from turnover, we win matchen by 1-0 , not winning any big cups because the forwards will not score more then 5 goals = very boring matches to come and watch.Timo will miss a lot of chances, Kai will score 2 in 20 matches and Lukaku won’t touch the ball.

Or we adept and take more risk playing forward passes with Alonso and risk some mistakes because he is way better then Sarr. Sarr can’t build up( reason why opposition leave him free), pass and shoot.

and use Azpi or Cholobah who I believe will do fine on the RB because he can shoot, crosses, can give forward passes and importantly he likes to make his forward run.

      Lukaku

(Mount/ Pulisic) -Kovacevic - kai - ziyech

      Kante( have to make less run and can try to keeps possesion or tackle the balls)

Alonso - rudiger - silva( Azpi)-Chaloba( Azp)

                  Mendy

 

 

 

Edited February 22, 20224 yr by Hall

Or tuchel play 343 when playing big teams and he can even have 4 defenders @ the back.

                    lukaku

         Kai —                ziyech

Alonso - kante - kovacevic - Chalobah

            Rudiger - Silva - Azpi

                    Mendy 

 

mount can play with Ziyech /Kovacevic

kante / Jorginho( to covers mistakes from Alonso)

Azpi / Christenen 

james/ Chalobah

there is a relationship building between ziyech - Mount , ziyech - lukaku if they let azpi ( Chalobah) run behind and over him. Alonso can shoot or go in the box and make mistakes when kante is behind him. Kante stay back to help the defenders

Edited February 22, 20224 yr by Hall

An alternative way to look at Chelsea’s ‘worrying’ form;

So far in 2022 we’ve won 8/11 games & 5 on the bounce.

We’ve achieved this without our Wide Men, without Kante for 55% of the games & with a Striker who touches the ball less than a ball-boy.

Imagine when we ‘click’. 🔥

4 hours ago, ducavis said:

Pretty much that; he is instructing the players to take low risks to prevent turnovers. 

The amount of times I've seen him remonstrate because players were not aggressive with their passing or off-the-ball movement indicates the opposite. 

Over Tuchel's tenure our chance creation hasn't come from consistent individual play. We don't have a single KDB, Grealish, Pogba, Bruno, TAA etc. Our chance creation comes almost wholly from the system he created. Competent wing backs are crucial to this system. A forward who can harass and press is crucial. Right now we have neither and its effect is plain to see.

18 hours ago, axman2526 said:

Cities loss on Saturday could well have ramped up the pressure on him imo. He showed signs of pressure in his interview after Palace before Cities result.

Cause the board will likely look at it and simply say Brighton twice, Everton at home, Burnely at home. 8 points thrown away late on from winning positions that would have us 5 off City with a game in hand and very much in the title race.

The board also share some blame in letting players like Livramento and Lamptey go and not finding replacements for Azpi and Alonso that might have not left us so crippled in the WB department. 

Btw all this talk about Lukaku, Lukaku, Lukaku really ignore the fact that against packed defense it is all abour your deep mifielder and wide player. It is very difficult to find space in the middle and high especially when you want to build slowly.

Just watch city chances. All of them came from combination of wide player or rodri made one run to overload the wing to create space for sterling that lead to gundo goal.

Edited February 22, 20224 yr by Bob stark

On 20/02/2022 at 10:18, Argo said:

I remember when i was in Australia I stayed up late and woke up at stupid hours to watch games (and this wasn't when we were doing particularly well) which rendered me an absolute mess the following day, would I now? I'll wake up to check the lineup but if Rom is starting forget it.

You know my pain 😝