8 minutes ago, Sconnie Blue said:

Exactly. 

Erm, what?

13 minutes ago, dkw said:

Erm, what?

When you asked what they were, I replied Exactly. There haven't been any midfield three's containing players of same profile that went on to be successful. Real, Barcelona, City, Bayern, Chelsea, Liverpool, etc, etc. A midfield needs to have balance and having three players with a similar profile disrupts the balance. 

A successful midfield three has a holding midfielder, a #6, and a box to box/#10. With Gallagher, Kante, and Kova you simply have 3 box to box footballers. 

Edited August 12, 20223 yr by Sconnie Blue

37 minutes ago, Sconnie Blue said:

Presumably Kante. 

Its like thinking a midfield of three Essien's would work. 

Yep. Even a semi retired Wenger who was laughed at for how behind the times he was getting managed to brutally exploit us with Kante as the deepest midfielder, and that was when he was at his absolute pomp.

At best you restrict what he's best at, at worst he does it anyway which leaves gaping holes when he's bypassed, as shown at 1:22 in this clip of the same game I referenced above here.

 

2 minutes ago, Sconnie Blue said:

When you asked what they were, I replied Exactly. There haven't been any midfield three's containing players of same profile that went on to be successful. Real, Barcelona, City, Bayern, Chelsea, Liverpool, etc, etc. A midfield needs to have balance and having three players with a similar profile disrupts the balance. 

A successful midfield three has a holding midfielder, a #6, and a box to box/#10. With Gallagher, Kante, and Kova you simply have 3 box to box footballers. 

I mean do you have an example of a midfield containing players of the same profile that wasnt successful.

20 minutes ago, Sindre said:

Real Madrid had the same idea some on here seem to have these days. Some idiots there looked at Makelele and went "what good does he do for us anyways" and then they sold him because he wasn't flashly like Zidane, Guti, Figo and the others.

And then when he left it took about 1 game for them to realize what they had done. And that was that, that one humble sitting midfielder they had that "only" passed sideways, didn't dribble much and quietly did his job intercepting and protection the space between midfield and defence was their most important players despite being the least flashy and least praised.

Great shoutout there to Makelele. Many believe that him leaving Real Madrid was the catalyst of the downfall of the Galacticos. 

13 minutes ago, dkw said:

I mean do you have an example of a midfield containing players of the same profile that wasnt successful.

Or alternatively, do you have an example of one that was ?

14 minutes ago, dkw said:

I mean do you have an example of a midfield containing players of the same profile that wasnt successful.

I mean it would be tough to find one considering most managers are intelligent enough to not deploy a three man midfield of similar players. 

Top of my head, Xavi, Deco, Iniesta - Barcelona circa 2007. 

13 minutes ago, Sconnie Blue said:

I mean it would be tough to find one considering most managers are intelligent enough to not deploy a three man midfield of similar players. 

Top of my head, Xavi, Deco, Iniesta - Barcelona circa 2007. 

The Gerrard-Lampard pairing is another good one. Here is Frank himself talking about why it never worked. Basically he said that they were desperate for someone to be a sitting midfielder behind them which is what we are saying basically.

https://www.givemesport.com/1784145-frank-lampard-chelsea-legend-explained-why-england-partnership-with-gerrard-didnt-work

 

7 minutes ago, Sindre said:

The Gerrard-Lampard pairing is another good one. Here is Frank himself talking about why it never worked. Basically he said that they were desperate for someone to be a sitting midfielder behind them which is what we are saying basically.

https://www.givemesport.com/1784145-frank-lampard-chelsea-legend-explained-why-england-partnership-with-gerrard-didnt-work

 

In similar vein, I'd like to see a sitting DM in a 4-3-3 behind Mount and Gallagher. 

27 minutes ago, Sconnie Blue said:

I mean it would be tough to find one considering most managers are intelligent enough to not deploy a three man midfield of similar players. 

Top of my head, Xavi, Deco, Iniesta - Barcelona circa 2007. 

Ah right, I thought you meant there were past examples of it failing. The Barcelona example sort of works though not a lot of defensive cover, height or strength in that triple midget set up ha ha...

2 hours ago, Sindre said:

Real Madrid had the same idea some on here seem to have these days. Some idiots there looked at Makelele and went "what good does he do for us anyways" and then they sold him because he wasn't flashly like Zidane, Guti, Figo and the others.

And then when he left it took about 1 game for them to realize what they had done. And that was that, that one humble sitting midfielder they had that "only" passed sideways, didn't dribble much and quietly did his job intercepting and protection the space between midfield and defence was their most important players despite being the least flashy and least praised.

It completely agree. However playing a holder who just does what you describe with 3 player behind him essentially asking your attacker to score with one less support. 

 

 

 

2 hours ago, Sexyfootball said:

Or alternatively, do you have an example of one that was ?

Why, Ive never said there was such a thing. I also dont think Kova, Kante and Galagher are similar at all.

5 hours ago, Sexyfootball said:

Or alternatively, do you have an example of one that was ?

Now that I think of it, maybe you can argue about what Man United used to have. Their midfield of Scholes, Carrick, Giggs and Fletcher was kind of made of similar types of players, specially later on when Giggs lost his pace that is.

Carrick was in the DM position but the other 3 could come deep and get the ball too so all looked a bit similar since 3/4 (Scholes, Giggs, Carrick) were great passers.

Which in itself maybe reminds of Real Madrid's midfield, yes Casemiro is the DM there but Kroos and Modric are excellent passers that can run games, I guess what is the most evident is the defensive positioning of Casemiro that distinguishes from the other two. 

Edited August 12, 20223 yr by Gol15

5 hours ago, Sexyfootball said:

In similar vein, I'd like to see a sitting DM in a 4-3-3 behind Mount and Gallagher. 

That’s the only way you could play both.

9 hours ago, Argo said:

Yep. Even a semi retired Wenger who was laughed at for how behind the times he was getting managed to brutally exploit us with Kante as the deepest midfielder, and that was when he was at his absolute pomp.

At best you restrict what he's best at, at worst he does it anyway which leaves gaping holes when he's bypassed, as shown at 1:22 in this clip of the same game I referenced above here.

 

You also know, if you felt like swinging in the other direction, you could go on YouTube Argo and find a boat load of video clips showing Jorginho being by-passed like a traffic cone in most games without him even going over the half-way line.

But you and Sindre are of course completely missing the point. Sindre picked Makalele as the prime example. Fair enough I suppose, but we all know it's a false comparison really. Maka was almost a freak in how good he was. His reading of the game, his timing, his positioning, his tackling, his recovery speed. How many defensive midfielders have there been in the history of the game who have been that good?  Certainly not Jorginho for sure. Christ, it even became known as the "Makalele role".

I've said to you before that IMO none of the top of EPL sides have a DM who sits as deep as J5, moving the ball as slowly, generally over short distance, offering so little going forwards and is as athletically limited. I wouldn't mind if he was close to Maka, Essien, Matic or even Kante as a pure defender but he isn't. He doesn't have pace, power, aerial ability, he relies solely on positioning but when opponents goes past him, as they regularly do, he doesn't often catch 'em. His team mates do.

This is pointless really. We are never going to agree on this. Ever. But to make my opinion absolutely, 100% clear, I think we could take Jorginho out of our line up, make a tactical and formational change, and probably be a better team AND far more entertaining to watch playing at a faster tempo.

Edited August 12, 20223 yr by just

Would like to see Connor start on Sunday. The energy would be useful.

Broja is not fit enough to start from what I hear, and Havertz is pants, so Connor and Mason supporting Sterling. 

Means no width but nobody there to head a ball in other than set pieces for us anyways.

9 hours ago, axman2526 said:

Would like to see Connor start on Sunday. The energy would be useful.

Broja is not fit enough to start from what I hear, and Havertz is pants, so Connor and Mason supporting Sterling. 

Means no width but nobody there to head a ball in other than set pieces for us anyways.

I agree. Lets see what he can do further upfield.

Width surely should come from our wingbacks otherwise why have wingbacks in the first place. 

14 hours ago, just said:

 

This is pointless really. We are never going to agree on this. Ever. But to make my opinion absolutely, 100% clear, I think we could take Jorginho out of our line up, make a tactical and formational change, and probably be a better team AND far more entertaining to watch playing at a faster tempo.

Lampard tried that already, he probably regrets it till this day.

 

1 hour ago, Gol15 said:

Lampard tried that already, he probably regrets it till this day.

 

The difference in our assessments of that time are completely different Gol. You firmly believe everything went pear-shaped for Frank because of one single factor. Dropping Jorginho. I do not. 

As I said, never going to agree on this so not worth arguing over.

10 minutes ago, just said:

The difference in our assessments of that time are completely different Gol. You firmly believe everything went pear-shaped for Frank because of one single factor. Dropping Jorginho. I do not. 

As I said, never going to agree on this so not worth arguing over.

Since you literally advocate for removing Jorginho from the lineup, which is one single factor that according to you would make us play better and more entertaining, I can only point out that Lampard lost his job after doing that. So I can see why you wouldn't want to argue further.

All about having a good squad and "horses for courses" for me.

Jorginho certainly has his uses and is a decent fit in some games against certain opponents. But some games you get THIS and it's why I want him nowhere near tomorrow's starting line-up....................!!

 

3 minutes ago, Nibs said:

All about having a good squad and "horses for courses" for me.

Jorginho certainly has his uses and is a decent fit in some games against certain opponents. But some games you get THIS and it's why I want him nowhere near tomorrow's starting line-up....................!!

 

Because he's covering Alonso's terrible positioning? 

10 minutes ago, Nibs said:

All about having a good squad and "horses for courses" for me.

Jorginho certainly has his uses and is a decent fit in some games against certain opponents. But some games you get THIS and it's why I want him nowhere near tomorrow's starting line-up....................!!

 

And since that game he's won 9 out of 11 against Spurs conceding just 4 in the process.

Edited August 13, 20223 yr by Argo

20 minutes ago, Sconnie Blue said:

Because he's covering Alonso's terrible positioning? 

I wouldn't call that covering - he might as well have been sitting in the stands with the Spuds supporters!

I'm not a Jorgi hater. As I've said, he is a good squad player and has his uses. But Conte will have Spurs fired upfor this one and know Jorginho's weaknesses better than anyone so I can just seeing it go badly wrong if he starts tomorrow.

1 minute ago, Nibs said:

I wouldn't call that covering - he might as well have been sitting in the stands with the Spuds supporters!

I'm not a Jorgi hater. As I've said, he is a good squad player and has his uses. But Conte will have Spurs fired upfor this one and know Jorginho's weaknesses better than anyone so I can just seeing it go badly wrong if he starts tomorrow.

We've beaten them 3 times last season with Jorginho on the pitch?