Just now, loz said:

Jaysus, OJ Simpson reacted in a more controlled manner when put under pressure than Jorginho does.

Thats why he was our best player in the FA Cup final VS one of the best pressing teams in Europe.

I am pretty sure Tuchel didn't want to put Gallagher in that position with Jorgiho. He was still the best choice there. 

19 minutes ago, jack_super_class said:

Great reply.

Apologies, I genuinely thought you were making a joke. 

Just now, jack_super_class said:

Watched him every game since he joined us. The only problem i have with Jorginho is his speed and lack of physicality. You take Jorginho out this team we would struggle to play out. Our best football in the last few years is when Jorginho and Kovacic play in the pivot.

Jorginho is every bit as good as Rodri on the ball.

So you're not interested that he currently has the same dribbled past stat figure you used as an illustration to apparently show Gallagher isn't good enough? And Gallagher isn't even the specialist defensive midfielder.

And your comparison with Rodri doesn't bear scrutiny. Jorginho may be as good on the ball but he doesn't carry the ball like Rodri can, he doesn't get forward in support of the attacking play as Rodri often does and he isn't as good in the air. Rodri is the better all round player by far.

I feel like now people are slowly waking up to the fact that Jorginho is a part of our problem, not part of the solution but there are still a few die-hards obviously. I don't mind us having Jorginho as a squad player. I've said before he is useful coming on in matches where we want to slow the pace down, retain possession with as little risk as possible, and run the clock down. 

 

2 minutes ago, evissy said:

I am pretty sure Tuchel didn't want to put Gallagher in that position with Jorgiho. He was still the best choice there. 

Billy Gilmour is actually the the best choice. You could of even put RLC there, Put James to RWB and play Chalobah or Ampadu at RCB.

We are stacked with attacking midfielders who want to play behind the striker. Where would be realistically fit in?

2 minutes ago, just said:

So you're not interested that he currently has the same dribbled past stat figure you used as an illustration to apparently show Gallagher isn't good enough? And Gallagher isn't even the specialist defensive midfielder.

And your comparison with Rodri doesn't bear scrutiny. Jorginho may be as good on the ball but he doesn't carry the ball like Rodri can, he doesn't get forward in support of the attacking play as Rodri often does and he isn't as good in the air. Rodri is the better all round player by far.

I feel like now people are slowly waking up to the fact that Jorginho is a part of our problem, not part of the solution but there are still a few die-hards obviously. I don't mind us having Jorginho as a squad player. I've said before he is useful coming on in matches where we want to slow the pace down, retain possession with as little risk as possible, and run the clock down. 

 

Of course, but Jorginho stats are usually pretty good. I thought VS Spurs he was very good despite the error. Im not judging to much after 3 games. We all know Jorginho limitations psychically.

I dont think Jorginho is part of the problem. I think we have much bigger problems than Jorginho.

 

31 minutes ago, jack_super_class said:

Billy Gilmour is actually the the best choice. You could of even put RLC there, Put James to RWB and play Chalobah or Ampadu at RCB.

And you know this better than Tuchel how?

Expecting Gallagher to be the answer to our midfield issues is very optimistic.

Look at his profile on Whoscored : many more weaknesses than strengths , plus nothing as a strength that helps expand our attacking intent ... 

 

And even if you look beyond that, where does he play ?

His fans are saying he can't play DM or CM and needs to be further forward ... but who are you dropping to accommodate him ? He'd be pretty much in direct competition with Mount, and he has no chance of displacing Mason ... 

I don't think you can play Sterling central with Mount and Conor behind him. That looks very light weight to me. Nobody would win a header in the box from a cross or a corner for example ... plus none are clinical enough, or heavy scoring enough to be our three most forward attacking players ...  

 

I really hope he proves me wrong, but I just can't see Gallagher making it at Chelsea ... 

Just now, evissy said:

And you know this better than Tuchel how?

Yes, because yesterday went so well...

It's my opinion, thats what the forum is for.

Do you agree with every decision Tuchel makes? Thought so.

6 minutes ago, jack_super_class said:

Of course, but Jorginho stats are usually pretty good. I thought VS Spurs he was very good despite the error. Im not judging to much after 3 games. We all know Jorginho limitations psychically.

I dont think Jorginho is part of the problem. I think we have much bigger problems than Jorginho.

 

Agree with your last sentence Jack. A competent centre-forward is our most pressing need, but that doesn't mean we should ignore other positions we can improve upon.

I've made the argument in other threads that football has moved on and we need to realise you don't have to have a deep sitting defensive midfielder who doesn't do much of anything else. None of our big rivals do. Xhaka and Partey at Arsenal, Rodri at Citeh, Bissouma and Hojberg at Tottenham, Rice at West Ham. N'didi at Leicester. All of them can be classed as DMs but all of them also play and contribute in other areas of the pitch. If Jorginho was a natural defensive wrecking ball like Makelele or Essien, or could turn defensive situations into counter attacks in the blink of an eye by pinging precision long balls ala Pirlo or Fabregas, you could make a good argument for him rarely going over the halfway line. But he isn't either of those two things and never will be.

5 minutes ago, jack_super_class said:

Yes, because yesterday went so well...

It's my opinion, thats what the forum is for.

Do you agree with every decision Tuchel makes? Thought so.

So why did he decide to put Conor there? Because he wanted to experiment what happens if you put your 3rd choice on...?

Just now, evissy said:

So why did he decide to put Conor there? Because he wanted to experiment what happens if you put your 3rd choice on...?

Because he thinks he has similar attributes to Kante. I think he said that before the game too.

12 minutes ago, just said:

Agree with your last sentence Jack. A competent centre-forward is our most pressing need, but that doesn't mean we should ignore other positions we can improve upon.

I've made the argument in other threads that football has moved on and we need to realise you don't have to have a deep sitting defensive midfielder who doesn't do much of anything else. None of our big rivals do. Xhaka and Partey at Arsenal, Rodri at Citeh, Bissouma and Hojberg at Tottenham, Rice at West Ham. N'didi at Leicester. All of them can be classed as DMs but all of them also play and contribute in other areas of the pitch.

Simple question. How does Jorginho blow them out of the water in terms of chances created then?

They measure these things you know and Jorginho absolute smashes those you mentioned at it. How does he do that if he doen't contribute in "other areas" ?

Let me entertain it a bit more and show you. Jorginho on the left and Rodri on the right. Official stats from Premier League:

See what we mean?

 

Edited August 22, 20223 yr by Sindre

8 minutes ago, just said:

Agree with your last sentence Jack. A competent centre-forward is our most pressing need, but that doesn't mean we should ignore other positions we can improve upon.

I've made the argument in other threads that football has moved on and we need to realise you don't have to have a deep sitting defensive midfielder who doesn't do much of anything else. None of our big rivals do. Xhaka and Partey at Arsenal, Rodri at Citeh, Bissouma and Hojberg at Tottenham, Rice at West Ham. N'didi at Leicester. All of them can be classed as DMs but all of them also play and contribute in other areas of the pitch. If Jorginho was a natural defensive wrecking ball like Makelele or Essien, or could turn defensive situations into counter attacks in the blink of an eye by pinging precision long balls ala Pirlo or Fabregas, you could make a good argument for him rarely going over the halfway line. But he isn't either of those two things and never will be.

Rodri,Xhaka are more like Jorginho. Bissouma,Partey, Ndidi and Rice are more destroyers. We have a manager who wants a possession based team, so having a player like Jorginho is pretty important.

We had one of the best defences in Europe for about a year when Tuchel took over, Jorginho was a big part of that.

12 minutes ago, Sindre said:

Simple question. How does Jorginho blow them out of the water in terms of chances created then?

They measure these things you know and Jorginho absolute smashes those you mentioned at it. How does he do that if he doen't contribute in "other areas" ?

Let me entertain it a bit more and show you. Jorginho on the left and Rodri on the right. Official stats from Premier League:

See what we mean?

 

But but,Jorginho only passes sideways and backwards 🤣.

1 hour ago, Sindre said:

Simple question. How does Jorginho blow them out of the water in terms of chances created then?

They measure these things you know and Jorginho absolute smashes those you mentioned at it. How does he do that if he doen't contribute in "other areas" ?

Let me entertain it a bit more and show you. Jorginho on the left and Rodri on the right. Official stats from Premier League:

See what we mean?

 

https://fbref.com/en/stathead/player_comparison.cgi?request=1&sum=1&comp_type=spec&dom_lg=1&spec_comps=9&player_id1=6434f10d&p1yrfrom=2019-2020&player_id2=45db685d&p2yrfrom=2019-2020

Jorginho has a 0.01 non-penalty goals per 90, Rodri has 0.12.

Jorginho has 0.07 assists per 90, Rodri has 0.8.

Jorginho has an non-penalty xG of 1.7, Rodri is 5.6.

Rodri attempts more passes and has ahigher pass completion. 

Rodri attempts more dribbles and also succeeds in more dribbles. 

Jorginho has 4.72 progressive carries per game, Rodri has 6.9 per game.

Defensively they have fairly similar tackles won/pressures per 90 etc. however Rodri can actually win headers too 72% success compared to Jorginho's 36%.

 

Look we can all pick and choose stats to fit a narrative but any logical football fan can watch any game of these two and see that Rodri is head and shoulder above Jorginho in every department in any system.

P.S. after those cherry picked stats you posted Rodri still has more assists even though Jorginho has been in the league an extra season.

Edited August 22, 20223 yr by RIP Mourinho

14 minutes ago, RIP Mourinho said:

https://fbref.com/en/stathead/player_comparison.cgi?request=1&sum=1&comp_type=spec&dom_lg=1&spec_comps=9&player_id1=6434f10d&p1yrfrom=2019-2020&player_id2=45db685d&p2yrfrom=2019-2020

Jorginho has a 0.01 non-penalty goals per 90, Rodri has 0.12.

Jorginho has 0.07 assists per 90, Rodri has 0.8.

Jorginho has an non-penalty xG of 1.7, Rodri is 5.6.

Rodri attempts more passes and has ahigher pass completion. 

Rodri attempts more dribbles and also succeeds in more dribbles. 

Jorginho has 4.72 progressive carries per game, Rodri has 6.9 per game.

Defensively they have fairly similar tackles won/pressures per 90 etc. however Rodri can actually win headers too 72% success compared to Jorginho's 36%.

 

Look we can all pick and choose stats to fit a narrative but any logical football fan can watch any game of these two and see that Rodri is head and shoulder above Jorginho in every department in any system.

P.S. after those cherry picked stats you posted Rodri still has more assists even though Jorginho has been in the league an extra season.

How is it cherry picking? It addresses the "Jorginho doesn't do anything" bullsh*t that some spout.

Or how can someone who only pass sideways have a ton more through balls than for example Rodri? Explain that to me. He's actually attempted more through balls than most midfielders in all of Europe since 2018. 

33 minutes ago, Sindre said:

How is it cherry picking? It addresses the "Jorginho doesn't do anything" bullsh*t that some spout.

Or how can someone who only pass sideways have a ton more through balls than for example Rodri? Explain that to me. He's actually attempted more through balls than most midfielders in all of Europe since 2018. 

cherry-pick
/ˈtʃɛrɪpɪk/
verb
past tense: cherry-picked; past participle: cherry-picked
choose and take only (the most beneficial or profitable items, opportunities, etc.) from what is available.

 

You've also chose stats not as a per 90 metric when Jorginho has been here for more seasons thus inflating the passing figure. 

As for through balls (not sure how this single stat shows much) can easily be explained away by a coaches tactics and play style. All these through balls and still less assists in more seasons. Even on the premier league website you quoted from it shows Jorginho also has a lot more backwards passes than Rodri, but you conveniently left that one out. As i said, cherry picked.

2 hours ago, Sindre said:

Simple question. How does Jorginho blow them out of the water in terms of chances created then?

They measure these things you know and Jorginho absolute smashes those you mentioned at it. How does he do that if he doen't contribute in "other areas" ?

Let me entertain it a bit more and show you. Jorginho on the left and Rodri on the right. Official stats from Premier League:

See what we mean?

 

Apologies for the delay Sindre. I am going to Spain for six weeks at silly o'clock tomorrow morning and so I'm flying around trying to get last minute things done.

OK. You picked Rodri. So let's post up last seasons stats, from the source that you chose, (other "tell the whole story"statistics are available of course), for both players, so everyone can have a good look at them and decide who probably does a lot more in the opponents half and from an attacking viewpoint.

https://www.premierleague.com/players/5682/Jorginho/stats?co=1&se=418

https://www.premierleague.com/players/16286/Rodri/stats?co=1&se=418

First off, goals. You will accept, I hope, that a player generally has to be in and around the opposition area to score? Rodri 7, Jorginho 6 - very similar. BUT..... Jorginho's are all penalties, Rodri no penalties. He also hit the woodwork on one occaision too.

Assists. Jorginho 2, Rodri 2 - No difference there then.

"Big" chances created: Jorginho 6, Rodri 0. Jorginho a clear winner here. Very impressive, only I can't find any definition of what a "Big Chance" creation is? Any ideas? If Mount takes a shot and it hits Jorginho in the back side and ricoccchets to Havertz who then takes another shot, is that a "Big Chance" created? Or, 'nother example: if Kante wins the ball and stops a counter-attack on the halfway line and then runs 20 yards forwards with the ball and passes to Mount on the edge of the opponents box, who then makes a short 5 yard pass for Havertz to shoot, who created the "Big Chance"? Mount or Kante?

Now this next one I do understand without a definition, and it's a doozy because again, you generally have to be in and around the opponents box for taking a shot. 

Shots taken: Jorginho 16, Rodri 45. That's a big difference.

Crosses: Jorginho 3 with a cross accuracy of 0%, Rodri 9 with a cross accuracy of 44%. 

Through balls: Jorginho 8, Rodri 4. BUT where were those through balls played from? Mostly from the players own half, or, in the opponents half?

Now this next one is an absolute killer.

Accurate long balls: Jorginho 62, Rodri....... 180. Wow! Let that sink in for a moment. That is a whopping 118 accurate long passes more than J5.

Passes per match: Jorginho 64.93, Rodri 86.82 though, again, it doesnt tell you where those passes are played from, own half or opponents half.

 

So there it is. The statistics thing done again. But it's all so un-necessary. You only have to watch the games closely and with some objectivity to see Rodri or any of the other DMs I mentioned are involved far more often further up the pitch than Jorginho. That said I do enjoy the stat thing being used as offering alleged "definitive" proof. It's so simple to counter with other stats. As @jack_super_class silly dribbled past stat so beautifully illustrated for us. 

#WeDontNeedADeepSittingDefensiveMidfielder

Edited August 22, 20223 yr by just

15 minutes ago, RIP Mourinho said:

s for through balls (not sure how this single stat shows much) can easily be explained away by a coaches tactics and play style.

And this is the crux of the matter. The stuff Jorginho is one of the best in Europe at needs to be "explained away" and then you are left with the stuff he struggles at and therefore he's extremely poor.

It's no point in this. It's going around in circles. But Jorginho being voted player of the year by his actual peers should give quite a few some food for thought. You lot think he's sh*te but his actual peers praise him to the hilts.

I'm clearly on the side of the actual professional coaches and players and you quite simply aren't. And i'm perfectly happy to share opinion with the actual professionals.

“Jorginho makes everything seem very simple, it is essential for this team. We do not have many players with his characteristics, he is untouchable, “he said. Verratti in an interview with UEFA. “He makes the team work and improves those around him,” he added.

 

Edited August 22, 20223 yr by Sindre

36 minutes ago, Sindre said:

And this is the crux of the matter. The stuff Jorginho is one of the best in Europe at needs to be "explained away" and then you are left with the stuff he struggles at and therefore he's extremely poor.

It's no point in this. It's going around in circles. But Jorginho being voted player of the year by his actual peers should give quite a few some food for thought. You lot think he's sh*te but his actual peers praise him to the hilts.

I'm clearly on the side of the actual professional coaches and players and you quite simply aren't. And i'm perfectly happy to share opinion with the actual professionals.

“Jorginho makes everything seem very simple, it is essential for this team. We do not have many players with his characteristics, he is untouchable, “he said. Verratti in an interview with UEFA. “He makes the team work and improves those around him,” he added.

 

Doesn't matter, fact is we lost every single game against Leeds because of Jorginho, including the one when Jimmy Floyd scored a few against us back in 1998.

When we win against Leeds 3:0 with Jorginho playing, call me.

On 22/08/2022 at 13:55, evissy said:

And you know this better than Tuchel how?

I don't think any of us have managed a Premier League team or played for one.

Doesn't mean we can't voice our opinions, and sometimes managers get it wrong with tactics, team selection, substitution etc.

and sometimes it's obvious to us. They are not beyond criticism. But we all love our club, that's the most important thing, and discussion , debate and disagreement have always been part of being a supporter.

Anyway, let's hope Leeds was the low point of the season, come on you BLUES !

 

Well I've seen enough. I'm not sure what the question is in our midfield, but Gallagher isn't the answer.

We actually looked better when he got sent off!