20 minutes ago, axman2526 said:

And Liverpool.

Think their reign is finished to be honest, they have an ageing squad without the money to revamp it. Klopp is a miracle worker but he can only do so much.

 

Even during their best years under Klopp, they had the lowest net spend out of the top 6, their owners invest almost nothing. Unless Barca are stupid enough to buy one of their players for 140m again, they won't be able to rebuild the squad. 

6 minutes ago, Drogba1 said:

Think their reign is finished to be honest, they have an ageing squad without the money to revamp it. Klopp is a miracle worker but he can only do so much.

 

Even during their best years under Klopp, they had the lowest net spend out of the top 6, their owners invest almost nothing. Unless Barca are stupid enough to buy one of their players for 140m again, they won't be able to rebuild the squad. 

Disagree, think they bounce back.

Wes Sneijder has had a go at Enzo:

https://metro.co.uk/2023/04/19/wesley-sneijder-slams-chelsea-star-over-lazy-real-madrid-performance-18635810/

17 hours ago, Vagabond said:

The point is that we are spending big and overpaying for players that we are using in the "wrong" position (since that is an excuse brought up for Enzo now as well, since otherwise he would of course be much better) while selling players that would actually cover that exact position and while ignoring the glaring issues in our squad and creating new ones. Enzo is what I would consider a luxury signing to make our squad even stronger IF we were solid on all the other positions. Plus, for him to be worth that much he just isn't good enough defensively at the moment, especially if you want to play him as DM. Just focus on him and what he does in the defensive phase for an entire match and you'll see what I mean.

Moaning about someone's defensive ability (which isn't as bad as made out) while crying out about Jorginho being sold is unrivalled levels of irony. 

8 hours ago, axman2526 said:

Disagree, think they bounce back.

Wes Sneijder has had a go at Enzo:

https://metro.co.uk/2023/04/19/wesley-sneijder-slams-chelsea-star-over-lazy-real-madrid-performance-18635810/

I don't disagree with Sneijder here but this is something the club has to address. Enzo is not a DM. We need a system that supports Enzo. He needs other 8's or 6's or fullbacks to cover for him if he goes up the field. I believe Enzo is a player that could go double figures with goals and assists if supported but a DM he isn't. 

3 hours ago, RIP Mourinho said:

Moaning about someone's defensive ability (which isn't as bad as made out) while crying out about Jorginho being sold is unrivalled levels of irony. 

Jorginho is obviously a better defender than Enzo. Jorginho should have been playing alongside Enzo, leaving him to get more involved in the attacking phase. Right now we aren't using Enzo to his full capabilities because he has to play alongside midfielders that prefer to get forward more.

Just now, timetowaste said:

Jorginho is obviously a better defender than Enzo. Jorginho should have been playing alongside Enzo, leaving him to get more involved in the attacking phase. Right now we aren't using Enzo to his full capabilities because he has to play alongside midfielders that prefer to get forward more.

Italy played about the most perfect team-game in their Euro glory couple of years back. 3 midfielders with Jorginho in the pivot alongside Locatelli and Verratti. The three supported each other perfectly. This is something we haven't seen in our squad that much. Only in crunch games in CL. Our midfielders and players seem to be on individual missions around the field. If someone makes a move up, his fellow midfielder or fullback covers and vice versa. 

If you look at that Italy's trio we basically have most of the characteristics in our side. Kante's injury proneness is a massive problem.

I have stated before, and truly believe we DO have the answer. To my mind one of, if not the best DM in world football at this time is Kante. I always thought from the moment Enzo was signed, that it is a match made in heaven. Unfortunately at this moment in time, he is our best player, and having to attack more, he is actually not playing in his best role. Who would you rather have, coming into the box meeting balls coming back out. Love him as i do, it certainly isn't Kante or Kovecic, you will NEVER get many goals from that pair. With Kante being the brick wall, which we all know he can be, that frees Enzo to truly show, what most of the world coveted.

The player we all loved, who the position of DM was actually named after was 1" taller than Kante, you don't need a big man, when you have the best, use him to your advantage. 

12 minutes ago, Ajbod said:

I have stated before, and truly believe we DO have the answer. To my mind one of, if not the best DM in world football at this time is Kante. I always thought from the moment Enzo was signed, that it is a match made in heaven. Unfortunately at this moment in time, he is our best player, and having to attack more, he is actually not playing in his best role. Who would you rather have, coming into the box meeting balls coming back out. Love him as i do, it certainly isn't Kante or Kovecic, you will NEVER get many goals from that pair. With Kante being the brick wall, which we all know he can be, that frees Enzo to truly show, what most of the world coveted.

The player we all loved, who the position of DM was actually named after was 1" taller than Kante, you don't need a big man, when you have the best, use him to your advantage. 

We’ve had some of the best defensive midfielders- Didier Dechamps the water carrier- was Essien DN? For a muscle man he had great stamina. 

Its one of those positions which looks easy-  Dechamps hardly ever left the centre circle- however to operate that role at top level is a skill in itself

38 minutes ago, timetowaste said:

Jorginho is obviously a better defender than Enzo. Jorginho should have been playing alongside Enzo, leaving him to get more involved in the attacking phase. Right now we aren't using Enzo to his full capabilities because he has to play alongside midfielders that prefer to get forward more.

Jorginho never has and never will be a defender of any type. Came into the game on Sunday and contributed with a grand total of 0 (ZERO) tackles. We've needed a DM since Matic left. 

Agree about Enzo needing to be played further forward.

27 minutes ago, Ajbod said:

I have stated before, and truly believe we DO have the answer. To my mind one of, if not the best DM in world football at this time is Kante. I always thought from the moment Enzo was signed, that it is a match made in heaven. Unfortunately at this moment in time, he is our best player, and having to attack more, he is actually not playing in his best role. Who would you rather have, coming into the box meeting balls coming back out. Love him as i do, it certainly isn't Kante or Kovecic, you will NEVER get many goals from that pair. With Kante being the brick wall, which we all know he can be, that frees Enzo to truly show, what most of the world coveted.

The player we all loved, who the position of DM was actually named after was 1" taller than Kante, you don't need a big man, when you have the best, use him to your advantage. 

Kante has never really been a DM though. If you play him there and, mandate the positional discipline required, then you kill all the things he is good at ... he's a roaming, "box-to-box" high energy ball winner,  winning tackles, regaining possession, intercepting passes ... all over the pitch. He'd be wasted just sat in front of the centre backs.

43 minutes ago, evissy said:

Italy played about the most perfect team-game in their Euro glory couple of years back. 3 midfielders with Jorginho in the pivot alongside Locatelli and Verratti. The three supported each other perfectly. This is something we haven't seen in our squad that much. Only in crunch games in CL. Our midfielders and players seem to be on individual missions around the field. If someone makes a move up, his fellow midfielder or fullback covers and vice versa. 

If you look at that Italy's trio we basically have most of the characteristics in our side. Kante's injury proneness is a massive problem.

We had that under Sarri to be fair, that's how Jorginho was used at Napoli as well

Enzo should be use as the quarter back, Kante is the defensive line backer to protect him, to give him the room to operate. And snuff out attacks from the opposition. But you need your attacking players to work, hard and properly together as a unit.

Kante doesn't need to just sit in, he needs his freedom to roam to where HE sees the danger, within the centre of the pitch. His having to get forward a lot more shows the inadequacy of our attack, he should be supporting it, not having to do it. 

9 hours ago, axman2526 said:

Disagree, think they bounce back.

Wes Sneijder has had a go at Enzo:

https://metro.co.uk/2023/04/19/wesley-sneijder-slams-chelsea-star-over-lazy-real-madrid-performance-18635810/

Think Enzo would be better in a 3 from the looks of it, though he did play in a 2 man pivot in Benfica. Maybe we just need another DM playing next to him, given that Kante's fitness is unreliable at this point. Rice could be a good option given West Ham's struggles. 

If Kante didn't have to cover for others failings, and run himself ragged, i'm sure his fitness would probably be less of a concern.

46 minutes ago, Ajbod said:

Kante doesn't need to just sit in, he needs his freedom to roam to where HE sees the danger, within the centre of the pitch. His having to get forward a lot more shows the inadequacy of our attack, he should be supporting it, not having to do it. 

But if he tries to snuff out the danger and fails in that position the opposition has a clean run at the back line.

Case in point Ozil's goal against us years back.

I know the suggestion that the hardest thing to do in football is to score goals, but for me the hardest thing in football is to be an effective DM.  

Your tactical awareness, positioning, and ability on the ball need to be sound. 

5 hours ago, RIP Mourinho said:

Moaning about someone's defensive ability (which isn't as bad as made out) while crying out about Jorginho being sold is unrivalled levels of irony. 

Imagine talking about irony while thinking we're "lucky" for paying a 120M transfer fee for a player we're using as DM that is defensively worse than Jorginho.

5 minutes ago, Vagabond said:

Imagine talking about irony while thinking we're "lucky" for paying a 120M transfer fee for a player we're using as DM that is defensively worse than Jorginho.

https://fbref.com/en/stathead/player_comparison.cgi?request=1&sum=0&comp_type=by_type&dom_lg=1&spec_comps=big_5&player_id1=5ff4ab71&p1yrfrom=2022-2023&player_id2=45db685d&p2yrfrom=2022-2023&player_id3=b9fbae28&p3yrfrom=2022-2023

You can keep saying defensively worse but it doesn't make it so. He's better in every defensive metric than Jorginho. Even if you toggle it to per 90 stats Jorginho only slightly beats Enzo in interceptions, Enzo clears in every other metric. 

We are lucky to get Enzo, every team in the world wanted him. You're a strange lad.

It doesn't matter who the DM is, they are a shield before the back 3/4. any player that beats whichever DM is through. It's up to the backs then to deal with the problem. Having had less problems, because the DM snuffs most of them out. It will never be perfect, even Makele got beaten, but whoever got through had a very serious back line to beat.

Our back line is nowhere near as good as previous incarnations, we have suffered, because their failings heap pressure on Kepa, because he worries the opposition will get through. This affects his game, causing pressure on the defence, worrying that Kepa's struggling, and it's a vicious circle underminding everyones confidence.

In our previous team line ups, it took a lot of effort, or sublime skill to breech the lines of defence. Our current lot are unfortunately a lot easier.

2 hours ago, RIP Mourinho said:

Jorginho never has and never will be a defender of any type. Came into the game on Sunday and contributed with a grand total of 0 (ZERO) tackles. We've needed a DM since Matic left. 

Agree about Enzo needing to be played further forward.

Let's not get into this again, I'm retired from being Jorgi's defence lawyer (no pun intended). Whatever the case, we are in desperate need of a DM in the summer along with a new GK and striker

1 hour ago, RIP Mourinho said:

https://fbref.com/en/stathead/player_comparison.cgi?request=1&sum=0&comp_type=by_type&dom_lg=1&spec_comps=big_5&player_id1=5ff4ab71&p1yrfrom=2022-2023&player_id2=45db685d&p2yrfrom=2022-2023&player_id3=b9fbae28&p3yrfrom=2022-2023

You can keep saying defensively worse but it doesn't make it so. He's better in every defensive metric than Jorginho. Even if you toggle it to per 90 stats Jorginho only slightly beats Enzo in interceptions, Enzo clears in every other metric. 

We are lucky to get Enzo, every team in the world wanted him. You're a strange lad.

Nice that you're using Enzos numbers from Benfica, the leader in Primeira Liga. Since we've arrived at irrelevant stats, could you look up the stats for Jorgi at Napoli or Mudryk at Shakthar?

I still don't see how people believe Enzo is a bad player. He's a perfect midfielder, he can do it all. What sort of defending people want to see from him? Those days where 1 player can single-handedly stop a better team from exposing our backline are over and even then we were known to park the bus a lot, just face it when the tactics are bad a single player can't stop the opponent to get into a scoring chance, the ball moves too fast for Enzo to cover half of the pitch, there is no player that does that anyway.

Edited April 20, 20233 yr by Gol15

2 hours ago, timetowaste said:

Let's not get into this again, I'm retired from being Jorgi's defence lawyer (no pun intended). Whatever the case, we are in desperate need of a DM in the summer along with a new GK and striker

Jorginho is bad, Enzo is bad. Some will never learn.

7 hours ago, Ajbod said:

Enzo should be use as the quarter back, Kante is the defensive line backer to protect him, to give him the room to operate. 

if Enzo is the 1/4 back, and Kante is the defensive line backer - then who is the point guard, pitcher and wicket keeper and mascot?

Fabragas was used as a quarterback type, with Matic as his linebacker.

Cesc was never a defensive midfielder, that is how Enzo needs to be utilised.