His performance at the weekend, like his goal was outstanding. I know its difficult to compare players from different eras but is he as good as Zola? Similar size but I think he is quicker. Gianfranco had a better touch and creativity. Maybe Eden can improve in this respect. Who is better?

7 hours ago, opinionsarelike said:

i'm not a football mastermind at all, but it seems to me like hazards role is more like messi's og ronaldo's these days than it has been previously. they don't track back nearly as much as hazard did under mourinho, but they work very hard for 4-5-6 seconds (at least messi did under guardiola) right after the team lose the ball. if they don't win it back, this surely means that when they recieve the ball again, they are higher up the pitch ie. closer to the goal and thus having a bigger chance of upping their productive metrics (assists or goals).

whilst hazard has always been above everyone else bar maybe aguero talent wise in the league, when he has gotten to clear cut chances he has often passed three-four-five players, instead of maybe 1-2 now. i think this has had an effect on his finishing ability just as must as him not 'shooting well' or that he doesn't shoot enough, the boy could just be too tired to shoot (or shoot well).

i argued with my chelsea mates one day that i found it very hard to argue that hazard is better than lets say aguero if the latter scores 30 goals a season and hazard 'only' scores 10. after all, goals controls matches more than anything (having messi or ronaldo, 1 goal in 1 match on average-players, statistically means that the oppo starts 1-0 down every game (yes i know it's not that easy, but...)). however, if hazard were to bump his goal tally up to 20 on decent efficiency, then we're talking top three in the world with probably only ronaldo and messi clear ahead of him.

it's going to be a great season for our belgian, at this point it's only a question of how great. he's imo already been our motm 3 out of 3 games, and at this point he's looking so fit and good i wouldn't doubt him getting 25-30 or even more motm's to his name.

I'm not sure if he's fully transitioned to a more attacking role just yet, although it looks promising. It will take some time before he fully embraces a new role. It's interesting as I think Messi is now playing a role similar to Hazard (rather than vice-versa) where he is required to create opportunities for Suarez to get on the ball. Neymar also plays a similar function. At Real Madrid, although it's hard to judge fully because Ronaldo isn't in the team yet, it seems the opposite where Morata will be tasked with creating chances for Ronaldo and Bale. Real also have a better attacking pair of fullbacks in Marcelo and Carvajal, which allows them to solve the width issue, whereas at Chelsea Hazard and Willlian are required to be wide options at times because of the limitations of Azpilicueta and Ivanovic.

Just a thing on goalscoring. Although the importance of goals can't be disputed, some would argue that Aguero's 30 goals is the same as if Hazard got 15 goals and 15 assists. I disagree with this because goals aren't just goals depending on the context. Aguero is a little easier for a defense to prepare for because you know that when an opportunity presents itself, 9/10 times he's going to shoot and you can hedge your bets that way. Actually stopping him is another matter, of course. Compare this to say Messi, who is equally adept at assisting or finishing, and it's harder to hedge your bets.  

I think this comes down to his coach and to his team rather than his ability, because it's not his ability that is the problem but the system he plays in. Consider how m1uch time Hazard has on the ball relative to the more dominant teams that the likes of Suarez, Aguero etc. played for. Efficiency is a very overrated metric in football because it doesn't really capture the whole impact of the player. I suspect that Hazard is actually a highly efficient player who is incredibly decisive when he does have the ball, but he has the ball a lot less than his peers because of the failures of our attacking system. Every other player he is compared to - Sanchez, Neymar, Messi etc. - all play for teams that typically dominate possession and get the ball to their star player as much as possible.

Without access to OPTA stats, it's a hard hypothesis to test, however I was able to pick up on one interesting thing using WhoScored. WhoScored have a tool that allows you to look at shots recorded by situation - open play, set pieces, counter-attack. I looked at 2014/15 because last season was a joke and Hazard's mental and physical problems just made everything worse. In that season, Hazard averaged just 2.1 shots from open play. yet still managed a similar output to Alexis Sanchez who averaged 2.7 shots, in a poor team. The benchmark of couse is Lionel Messi, who averaged 4.3 shots a game!

A similar pattern appears if you look at where they take their shots. Sanchez averaged close to 2 shots/game from inside the penalty area. Messi averaged 3. Hazard averaged just over 1.

What's striking about these is not the numbers but the relevant difference. In his best ever season, Hazard averaged less than half the shots of Lionel Messi in open play and makes half as many shots inside the penalty area as his nearest competitor yet still put up similar numbers to him. It points to a player who, if given chances will take them, but is being held back for some reason from getting the time on the ball and in the right areas.

 

2 hours ago, SydneyChelsea said:

I'm not sure if he's fully transitioned to a more attacking role just yet, although it looks promising. It will take some time before he fully embraces a new role. It's interesting as I think Messi is now playing a role similar to Hazard (rather than vice-versa) where he is required to create opportunities for Suarez to get on the ball. Neymar also plays a similar function. At Real Madrid, although it's hard to judge fully because Ronaldo isn't in the team yet, it seems the opposite where Morata will be tasked with creating chances for Ronaldo and Bale. Real also have a better attacking pair of fullbacks in Marcelo and Carvajal, which allows them to solve the width issue, whereas at Chelsea Hazard and Willlian are required to be wide options at times because of the limitations of Azpilicueta and Ivanovic.

Just a thing on goalscoring. Although the importance of goals can't be disputed, some would argue that Aguero's 30 goals is the same as if Hazard got 15 goals and 15 assists. I disagree with this because goals aren't just goals depending on the context. Aguero is a little easier for a defense to prepare for because you know that when an opportunity presents itself, 9/10 times he's going to shoot and you can hedge your bets that way. Actually stopping him is another matter, of course. Compare this to say Messi, who is equally adept at assisting or finishing, and it's harder to hedge your bets.  

I think this comes down to his coach and to his team rather than his ability, because it's not his ability that is the problem but the system he plays in. Consider how m1uch time Hazard has on the ball relative to the more dominant teams that the likes of Suarez, Aguero etc. played for. Efficiency is a very overrated metric in football because it doesn't really capture the whole impact of the player. I suspect that Hazard is actually a highly efficient player who is incredibly decisive when he does have the ball, but he has the ball a lot less than his peers because of the failures of our attacking system. Every other player he is compared to - Sanchez, Neymar, Messi etc. - all play for teams that typically dominate possession and get the ball to their star player as much as possible.

Without access to OPTA stats, it's a hard hypothesis to test, however I was able to pick up on one interesting thing using WhoScored. WhoScored have a tool that allows you to look at shots recorded by situation - open play, set pieces, counter-attack. I looked at 2014/15 because last season was a joke and Hazard's mental and physical problems just made everything worse. In that season, Hazard averaged just 2.1 shots from open play. yet still managed a similar output to Alexis Sanchez who averaged 2.7 shots, in a poor team. The benchmark of couse is Lionel Messi, who averaged 4.3 shots a game!

A similar pattern appears if you look at where they take their shots. Sanchez averaged close to 2 shots/game from inside the penalty area. Messi averaged 3. Hazard averaged just over 1.

What's striking about these is not the numbers but the relevant difference. In his best ever season, Hazard averaged less than half the shots of Lionel Messi in open play and makes half as many shots inside the penalty area as his nearest competitor yet still put up similar numbers to him. It points to a player who, if given chances will take them, but is being held back for some reason from getting the time on the ball and in the right areas.

 

Very informative, thanks for sharing.

7 hours ago, SydneyChelsea said:

I'm not sure if he's fully transitioned to a more attacking role just yet... ...

this was a very good and informative post, but i would like to add some of my views.

first of all, the reason why i mentioned aguero is because as well as scoring for fun he's extremely good at creating goal scoring opportunites for his team mates. in 14/15 he scored 26 goals in the bpl and assisted 8 times. that's only one fewer than hazard, but 12 goals more. i do agree that goals aren't everything and have argued that for example costa needs to improve his centre forward game beyond just scoring.

one of my biggest pet peeves with modern football analytics and punditery is how the non-measurables (often) have overtaken the measurables in judging how a player does. it's the reason why many holds scholes (a fantastic player, make no mistake) over lampard, "scholsey controls the whole game with his passing" they say, or how watching busquets (another fantastic player) is 'like watching the whole game' yadda yadda. it's a cult, some sort of football hipster-ism. 

there is definitely a lot beyond the assist and goal sheet, but at some point the measurables count for too much, especially for attacking players. i still think that hazard is comfortably top two in the league, with only aguero maybe in front of him, but there's for me no doubt that the next step in hazards evolution is to score more (and so far it looks really good). 

1 hour ago, opinionsarelike said:

this was a very good and informative post, but i would like to add some of my views.

first of all, the reason why i mentioned aguero is because as well as scoring for fun he's extremely good at creating goal scoring opportunites for his team mates. in 14/15 he scored 26 goals in the bpl and assisted 8 times. that's only one fewer than hazard, but 12 goals more. i do agree that goals aren't everything and have argued that for example costa needs to improve his centre forward game beyond just scoring.

one of my biggest pet peeves with modern football analytics and punditery is how the non-measurables (often) have overtaken the measurables in judging how a player does. it's the reason why many holds scholes (a fantastic player, make no mistake) over lampard, "scholsey controls the whole game with his passing" they say, or how watching busquets (another fantastic player) is 'like watching the whole game' yadda yadda. it's a cult, some sort of football hipster-ism. 

there is definitely a lot beyond the assist and goal sheet, but at some point the measurables count for too much, especially for attacking players. i still think that hazard is comfortably top two in the league, with only aguero maybe in front of him, but there's for me no doubt that the next step in hazards evolution is to score more (and so far it looks really good). 

Yeah, Aguero is a bad example for what I was trying to explain. Costa is a better example because you can hedge you bets he will shoot and that's because defenders and coaches don't have much reason to fear his game beyond scoring. On the upside, it's going to be easier for  to Hazard to learn to score more goals than it is to improve other things.

I'm not quite sure what you are trying to say - are you saying that non-measureables or measurables count for too much?

2 hours ago, SydneyChelsea said:

I'm not quite sure what you are trying to say - are you saying that non-measureables or measurables count for too much?

i realize that i didn't make myself clear at all. what i meant was that with all the pundits, football shows and tactical review websites, i feel that the measurables has been neglected in favor of what you can't necessarily measure. the experts analyze the game so thoroughly that they often forget what really counts in football, which is scoring more than your opponent. which is why i, maybe wrongly, pointed out how many people mean that scholes was better than lamps because he controlled the tempo of the game, even though lamps has more goals, more assists and was a better defender/tackler for the majority of his career (my point being that the measurables count more than the non-measurables and that lamps was the better player).

(i do realize that this is probably not relevant to this thread, but i think it highlights my point).

what i meant by it, which was even more unclear by my post, was really just to highlight what i think hazard needs to do to become what he can be, because as neville says, hazard has a stupid amount of talent. whilst i agree that hazard can somewhat control the game by not scoring, he can imo never control the game as much as a ronaldo or messi (or even aguero - if it's 15-20 goals separating them) does, and these are guys i feel hazard has as much talent as.

however, as you say, scoring more goals shouldn't be hazards biggest challenge. there's no reason to believe that a guy with his technique and composure on the ball shouldn't be able to score more than 12 goals a season (his best from 14/15) imo. and from what i've seen, his role looks to be more attacking/further up the pitch than what it was previously under mourinho, which should aid in his goal chase.

On 8/30/2016 at 01:47, pacquiao said:

Here is Henry working with Hazard, I think Henry will really improve Hazard, with his finishing and mentality, he will teach Hazard to always go for the kill and take responsibility himself rather then pass, he really could help Hazard go to the next level.

 

 

 

What Hazard will get from him is mental toughness. If he has a slump, he can overcome it.

12 minutes ago, Tibbers said:

What Hazard will get from him is mental toughness. If he has a slump, he can overcome it.

What he won't get from him is how to score in finals....

I feel it is the opposite in football. In that measurable so  (Goals and assists) seem to have more weight then actual performance. That's why Ronaldo is always ranked next to Messi despite in my opinion not even being close to him.

 

This is evident when you watch them both perform every game (Messi averages MotM performances that even Hazard at his best would be happy with whilst Ronaldo is very quiet most games) yet their stats make it look like they are at the same level.

be sure to vote curtis davies for august player of the month award

I am voting for Eden.

13 minutes ago, guddy69 said:

I am voting for Eden.

No No No. Curtis Davis!

Zlatan is a certainty unfortunately.

13 minutes ago, Chelsbear said:

Zlatan is a certainty unfortunately.

Ill bet you a thousand pounds it wont be Zlatan

14 minutes ago, Chelsbear said:

Zlatan is a certainty unfortunately.

not in the 4 players shortlisted

Do they have shortlists now?

I knew it was a social media thing so I'll be amazed if a Chelsea player ever wins these awards anymore.

https://www.premierleague.com/news/84046

 

probably this new fan voting on player and manager of the month awards only count as 10% of the final vote from the "experts"

Player of the month. Well done!

Ridiculous that this is Eden's first player of the month award..,just hope it doesn't jinx him

Just now, The Brit said:

Ridiculous that this is Eden's first player of the month award..,just hope it doesn't jinx him

If I remember correctly Drogba never even won one, it's a load of bollocks really.

34 minutes ago, Jonty said:

If I remember correctly Drogba never even won one, it's a load of bollocks really.

That is total bollocks, how can you be a golden boot winner yet never win a POTM award? Surely at least one month he should have won it you would think. That is crazy to me.

It's Chelsea.

We get very little acknowledgment from anyone despite our achievements. It's been very evident ever since Roman took us on.

It's sheer bitterness.

2 minutes ago, Chelsbear said:

It's Chelsea.

We get very little acknowledgment from anyone despite our achievements. It's been very evident ever since Roman took us on.

It's sheer bitterness.

Meanwhile the love in continues with United in the media. Have you guys ever looked up how many player of the month awards Rooney has won in his career. I just looked it up, 5. Gerrard has won 6! Man United have won 33 to our 16 apparently.

 

Looking through this list there are some real gems of players who have won it.... Lampard, Zola, Anelka, Chris Sutton.....Anton Ferdinand...

1 minute ago, MissouriBlue said:

Meanwhile the love in continues with United in the media. Have you guys ever looked up how many player of the month awards Rooney has won in his career. I just looked it up, 5. Gerrard has won 6! Man United have won 33 to our 16 apparently.

 

Looking through this list there are some real gems of players who have won it.... Lampard, Zola, Anelka, Chris Sutton.....Anton Ferdinand...

Mourinho won it 3 times with us.....3 times.

He's already won it this month for United in less than a dozen games.

Go figure eh!

1 minute ago, Chelsbear said:

Mourinho won it 3 times with us.....3 times.

He's already won it this month for United in less than a dozen games.

Go figure eh!

Looking at this without my Chelsea bias. Surely the award should have gone to Phelan or Conte. I think they both did great jobs this month. Even Pep is in a new league and is having to adapt to it. With Jose it is a league he knows well and it has been easier for him to hit the ground running as opposed to the other three.