On 1/10/2016 at 14:32, reparto corse said:

So you think that a 25 year old Hazard who has been out of form for over a year and only had one really good season in his entire career is worth more than a 23 year old Pogba who has been great for Juve in Serie A and CL and great for France in EURO 2016? You can´t be serious. How many times have you even watched Pogba?

 

I'm not sure whether your intention is to shoot down hazard or just overrate pogba but I think you managed to do both...  Apart from last season, hazard's return for the team can be considered as top class but arguably not yet a genuine world class, I happen to have a high standard so you're in luck in this case.. However, while I agre\ee hazard is not yet a solid world class, he has a very high chance on achieving that given his ability.. With the right system and playmates, I can easily see him reaching his full potential.. 

Now, go back to pogba, what has he achieved? 1 of the top players in calciopolly league? perhaps you could provide me some sort of an in sight that could justify his world record fee? whatever stats you're going to throw at me, I believe it won't be much different to hazard's stats 2 seasons ago, in fact I believe it would be inferior.. 

Surely you didn't think pogba is more valuable than hazard based on 2 years difference in age, did you?  The turth is nobody wanted to pay anywhere near his pricetag and Man United was simply desperate trying to make a statement on their status...

 

World record fee in most cases and I do mean in most cases is reserved to an attacking player, be that playmaker or striker, someone associated with goals and assists.. That's the general conception whether you like it or not..

 

50 minutes ago, bola said:

I'm not sure whether your intention is to shoot down hazard or just overrate pogba but I think you managed to do both...  Apart from last season, hazard's return for the team can be considered as top class but arguably not yet a genuine world class, I happen to have a high standard so you're in luck in this case.. However, while I agre\ee hazard is not yet a solid world class, he has a very high chance on achieving that given his ability.. With the right system and playmates, I can easily see him reaching his full potential.. 

Now, go back to pogba, what has he achieved? 1 of the top players in calciopolly league? perhaps you could provide me some sort of an in sight that could justify his world record fee? whatever stats you're going to throw at me, I believe it won't be much different to hazard's stats 2 seasons ago, in fact I believe it would be inferior.. 

Surely you didn't think pogba is more valuable than hazard based on 2 years difference in age, did you?  The turth is nobody wanted to pay anywhere near his pricetag and Man United was simply desperate trying to make a statement on their status...

 

World record fee in most cases and I do mean in most cases is reserved to an attacking player, be that playmaker or striker, someone associated with goals and assists.. That's the general conception whether you like it or not..

It is not about what Pogba has achieved but about what he is going to achieve. He has the potential to be one of the best central midfielders to ever play the game. He has a unique combination of passing, length and quickness. I once heard someone saying that he is like the love-child of Yaya Toure and Zidane and I agree with that. 

And come on now... Do I really need to explain why Pogba is more valuable then Hazard?

- First of all, Pogba would walk into the starting XI of every team there is in world football without any doubt

- Hazard on the other hand wouldn´t. 

- Pogba is coming of his best season yet. Hazard is coming of a terrible season.

- Pogba outproduced Hazard in terms of goals and assists by a large margin last year while playing much further away from goal and contributing to his teams defense. 

- Hazard has never had a really top-class season in terms of goals and assists in all of his career despite having a very offensive/free role as a forward. Compare his numbers to truly top-class forwards if you don´t believe it.

- Hazard is nowhere near his best and it is unclear if he ever returns to 2014-2015 form. 

 

Yes Pogba is a ManU-player and Hazard plays for us but totally ignoring reality can´t be good now, can it?

 

 

Just because I know you wont listen to any of it here are some stats from last season from other forwards/offensive midfielders

Thomas Müller: 32 goals, 12 assists in 49 games 

Neymar: 31 goals, 27 assists in 49 games

Suarez: 59 goals, 26 assists in 53 games

Bale: 19 goals, 15 assist in 31 games

Griezmann: 32 goals, 7 assists in 54 games

Mkhitaryan 23 goals 32 assists 52 games

Angel Di Maria: 15 goals, 25 assists in 47 games

Mesut Özil: 6 goals, 19 assists in 45 games

KDB: 17 goals, 16 assists in 45 games

Mahrez: 17 goals, 10 assists in 39 games

Alexis Sanchez: 17 goals 11 assists 41 games

Payet: 15 goals 17 assists 44 games

Lucas Perez 17 goals 10 assists in 39 games

Insigne 13 goals 11 assists 42 games

Miralem Pjanic 12 goals 13 assists 41 games

 

 

In comparison to Hazard:

2015-2016 6 goals 8 assists 43 games

2014-2015 19 goals, 13 assists in 52 games

Edited October 2, 20169 yr by reparto corse

59 minutes ago, reparto corse said:

It is not about what Pogba has achieved but about what he is going to achieve.

It's not about Hazard last season, It's about what Hazard is going to do next season.

11 minutes ago, Stim said:

It's not about Hazard last season, It's about what Hazard is going to do next season.

Hazard is 25. What makes you think he is going to improve?

Hazard as a player has the quality to rival anyone apart from the top players, he really does and that's what's frustrating.

The problem lies with consistently, people including me can name loads of players who consistently perform for there clubs not just for months but years.

Hazard had a great season, last season he wasn't interested but picked up when the euros was coming.

This season he has been hit and miss, in all honestly he has had more poor games than good this year. That's not what top class players do. Hopefully he proves us all wrong and has a good year.

We have to keep in mind Hazard plays in mostly a negative side where he is generally the only offensive input. Opposition teams double and triple mark him out of games. Neymar, Suarez, Aguero, all flourish in sides where there are other excellent offensive options. I hope Conte adds one more consistent offensive threat and reduces some pressure on Hazard.

4 minutes ago, JoseBlues said:

We have to keep in mind Hazard plays in mostly a negative side where he is generally the only offensive input. Opposition teams double and triple mark him out of games. Neymar, Suarez, Aguero, all flourish in sides where there are other excellent offensive options. I hope Conte adds one more consistent offensive threat and reduces some pressure on Hazard.

 

Very good point, totally forgot about this. Hazard playing for City or Arsenal would score and assist a lot more. When your relying on Oscar and Willian to help you create then your on your own most of the time.

No he doesn't. This season we have dominated possession  (Third highest in the league behind Liverpool and Manchester City) and have dominated territorialy (Around 30% of our play is in the attacking third, the same amount as Man City). Our problem is a lack of offensive threat, not a defensive mindset. Hazard is a big part of our attack being so poor as he isn't looking up to do something and link up with the other attackers. 

Of course we do need other better offensive players to go with him but Hazard is the reason our attack is so blunt not the other way around.

It is not easy when u are in the middle of a good attack and Willian/Oscar dribble into the opposition or pass it to Ivan.

2 hours ago, reparto corse said:

Just because I know you wont listen to any of it here are some stats from last season from other forwards/offensive midfielders

 

I don't care too much for stats, but I read this piece earlier in the season:

http://statsbomb.com/2016/09/new-tech-and-a-little-story-about-neymar-andros-and-eden-hazard/

it sort of helps to explain why even in the season hazard won player of the year his goals and assist ratio didn't reflect the influence he had for our attack.

@just

I rate bale very highly, but hand on heart wouldn't swap him for hazard. I don't think it is a great comparison any way- bale is very much a cutting edge player, a pure forward for me. hazard does much more prompting / midfield work. he's a hard player to categorise IMO because he's halfway between a winger / wide midfielder and the type of creative midfielder who is patient and probes around with his passing. there aren't many players I would directly compare him to. ribery is one perhaps.

Hazard does have a lot of pressure on him in an attacking sense in that everyone else around him bar Diego aren't very good.

If you had say Sanchez on the right with Hazard on the left then they would flourish completely.

3 hours ago, JoseBlues said:

It is not easy when u are in the middle of a good attack and Willian/Oscar dribble into the opposition or pass it to Ivan.

Ozil and Sanchez have Giroud and Walcott around them. Coutinho and Firmino have Henderson and Lallana. Last year De Bruyne and Aguero had Navas and a sh*t Sterling. 

 

Fact is Hazard isn't as good offensively as these guys (Not even getting started on the La Liga teams). He would not be the main man in either of these sides.

5 hours ago, reparto corse said:

Hazard is 25. What makes you think he is going to improve?

So because he is 25 that means he can't get any better ? Most players play their best football in their late 20's to early 30's

Ozil and Sanchez have Giroud and Walcott around them. Coutinho and Firmino have Henderson and Lallana. Last year De Bruyne and Aguero had Navas and a sh*t Sterling. 
 
Fact is Hazard isn't as good offensively as these guys (Not even getting started on the La Liga teams). He would not be the main man in either of these sides.

It is all subjective, not fact. I think he will be better in those sidrs. Their whole team attacks as a team while Chelsea is restricted to one or 2 players. Apart from Costa, no one is a proven goal scorer while all other sides at least 3 who can score.

Conte is trying to change that. We will see.

5 hours ago, Rusty-Man said:

Ozil and Sanchez have Giroud and Walcott around them. Coutinho and Firmino have Henderson and Lallana. Last year De Bruyne and Aguero had Navas and a sh*t Sterling. 

 

Fact is Hazard isn't as good offensively as these guys (Not even getting started on the La Liga teams). He would not be the main man in either of these sides.

Which Hazard are you referring to? At his 2014/15 peak, he undeniably would be the main man in those sides (even above Aguero). He was clearly the best player in the best side.

Not sure where he is this season though.  

6 hours ago, Rusty-Man said:

Ozil and Sanchez have Giroud and Walcott around them. Coutinho and Firmino have Henderson and Lallana. Last year De Bruyne and Aguero had Navas and a sh*t Sterling. 

 

Fact is Hazard isn't as good offensively as these guys (Not even getting started on the La Liga teams). He would not be the main man in either of these sides.

Thats not a fact at all, its your opinion. And my opinion is you are completely wrong, and you are one of those weird fans who seem to take great delight in pointing out how overrated/sh*t our players are, then spend ages hunting out stats to prove how overrated/sh*t one of our players are. 

8 hours ago, JMaher94 said:

Hazard does have a lot of pressure on him in an attacking sense in that everyone else around him bar Diego aren't very good.

If you had say Sanchez on the right with Hazard on the left then they would flourish completely.

Sure but he is also the "go-to" guy for our team while other players play a smaller role for their team and still produce more goals and assists than Hazard. You can´t claim Hazard is a top-class player and then complain that the opponents focus on shutting him down. Every good forward has to deal with other teams throwing 2 sometimes 3 players at you. All teams playing Barcelona and Real Madrid do is parking the bus in La Liga. And yet the likes of Neymar Bale Suarez have ridiculous numbers of goals/assists. If defensive focus is the reason why Hazard´s output is mediocre then that´s another reason for him not being a top-class player for both club and country. That´s something people forget: Hazard is not delivering for Belgium either. His stats for Belgium are 14 goals 18 assists in 73 games. What about this strikes you as "top-class"?

 

 

22 minutes ago, dkw said:

Thats not a fact at all, its your opinion. And my opinion is you are completely wrong, and you are one of those weird fans who seem to take great delight in pointing out how overrated/sh*t our players are, then spend ages hunting out stats to prove how overrated/sh*t one of our players are. 

Well with this current squad the only rational thing someone can do is point out that most of our players are indeed sh*t. It is borderline insane to pretend otherwise.

2 hours ago, reparto corse said:

Sure but he is also the "go-to" guy for our team while other players play a smaller role for their team and still produce more goals and assists than Hazard. You can´t claim Hazard is a top-class player and then complain that the opponents focus on shutting him down. Every good forward has to deal with other teams throwing 2 sometimes 3 players at you. All teams playing Barcelona and Real Madrid do is parking the bus in La Liga. And yet the likes of Neymar Bale Suarez have ridiculous numbers of goals/assists. If defensive focus is the reason why Hazard´s output is mediocre then that´s another reason for him not being a top-class player for both club and country. That´s something people forget: Hazard is not delivering for Belgium either. His stats for Belgium are 14 goals 18 assists in 73 games. What about this strikes you as "top-class"?

 

 

It's time for you to learn that football is a game where stats mean little. 

Just now, kiwi1691 said:

It's time for you to learn that football is a game where stats mean little. 

So what are the great forwards in world football that don´t produce large numbers of goals or assists?

 

2 hours ago, reparto corse said:

So what are the great forwards in world football that don´t produce large numbers of goals or assists?

 

Zidane, iniesta, ribery, giggs, beckham, and even robben wasnt prolific until his mid to late 20's. 

Edited October 3, 20169 yr by big blue

12 minutes ago, big blue said:

Zidane, iniesta, ribery, giggs, beckham, and even robben wasnt prolific until his mid to late 20's. 

Zidane, Iniesta, Bechham, Giggs...none of them are forwards.

Ribery has scored and assisted lots of goals in his prime years.

2010-2011 7 goals 17 assists in 25 bundesliga games

2011-2012 12 goals 21 assists in 32 bundesliga games

2012-2013 10 goals 15 assists in 27 bundesliga games

2013-2014 10 goals 12 assists in in 22 bundesliga games

 

 

 

forget what is or what isn't a forward as it is becoming a way of slightly ducking the point for you.

you are the man with stats at hand- give me the goals / assists stats (for apparently that is how the worth of an attacking / creative player is determined) for iniesta and rui costa throughout their careers. and then tell me whether they are / were actually any good.

stat wise theo walcott will knock the socks off rui costa. yet, for some reason, probably my fidelity to my eyes, I think rui costa was the better footballer. weird.

closer to home I would never describe lamps as a better creative player than inesta, yet he too regularly got multiple times the amount of assists iniesta did, and this in a side that was rarely as good as barcelona, and which always scored fewer goals than them.

again, weird.

I. just. can't. understand. it.

15 minutes ago, reparto corse said:

Zidane, Iniesta, Bechham, Giggs...none of them are forwards.

 

 

 

Yes they are, as much as Hazard is for gods sake. this alone proves you are desperately hunting for reasons to hammer Hazard.