Has apparently pulled out of the 'race', presumably after considering:

Positives:

- Billy Gilmour for the rest of the season

Negatives:

- Basically everything else

34 minutes ago, PloKoon13 said:

Has apparently pulled out of the 'race', presumably after considering:

Positives:

- Billy Gilmour for the rest of the season

Negatives:

- Basically everything else

Was some reports Dean Smith had impressed more in the interview stage and was seen as a better option for this seasons survival attempt.

Jody Morris in on the podcast “Off the Hook” talking about his career but also his time at Chelsea with Frank - sacking etc. Not heard too much from Frank/Jody on it so interesting listen. 

11 minutes ago, JM7 said:

Jody Morris in on the podcast “Off the Hook” talking about his career but also his time at Chelsea with Frank - sacking etc. Not heard too much from Frank/Jody on it so interesting listen. 

I wonder what their plan was to try and turn it round.

Maybe the 442 we saw against Luton?

I think at times we forget what a sacrifice Frank made coming to us so early in his career.

So far Gerrard is doing the right thing and staying clear of the Liverpool job and the huge pressure that will be on him there until he gains a lot more expierence. 

Frank came to us when we needed him and he did not need us. For his career it would have been better to stay at Derby and then move within the championship when they fell in to their mess. Had he done so no doubt for me he would have been ahead of Howe for Newcastle and top of the list for mid table PL clubs, maybe would have got Wolves or Everton in the summer.

But he came as we needed him as he was fine to deal with the transfer ban and bring youth through. I know some point at Tomori going as a failure but look at how key Mount and James have become after he gave faith to them, how he got us CL football with so many young players, no signings, so we could go on and win it when we could bring in a top manager like TT.

How he was part of the window that got us Silva, Mendy, Chilwell, all key players, and how Havertz came too and could still become a top player with us.

Frank did an amazing job to the detriment of his own career as too many see him as a failure due to his last 2 months with us.

For me, Franks legacy is current crop of youth players. 

7 hours ago, axman2526 said:

I think at times we forget what a sacrifice Frank made coming to us so early in his career.

It was also a massive opportunity for him to be fair. A opportunity that may or may not have come again if he rejected us and stayed at Derby so you can understand why he took it. Getting massive support in the transfer market of 2020 is also part of the story so I think sacrifice is the wrong word despite our love of SFL.

In that end it was likely a mix of a lot of things that cost him his job. He had fallen out with Marina and had lost the dressing room so the writing was on the wall at that point. The latter was probably the most surprising as I thought Lampard was going to be a great man-manager but he basically shunned certain players and that is very rarely a good idea.

I do think he's got great potential though. When we went toe to toe with Liverpool in the SuperCup in his first season you couldn't help but get excited despite the shootout loss.

 

52 minutes ago, Sindre said:

I do think he's got great potential though. When we went toe to toe with Liverpool in the SuperCup in his first season you couldn't help but get excited despite the shootout loss.

Plus the league game vs them and the game at The Ethiad aswell. Outfootballing Ajax was a great thing for such the young team too.

That's what annoyed me the most at the end, how the hell did we go from that to the largely turgid style we saw post lockdown? There was a theory going round at the start that the muscle memory from Sarri's repetitive training and Lampard's more expressive philosophy hit a perfect sweetspot and in hindsight that's the only real explanation for such a regression in play style especially after being backed with players who fitted our pre lockdown style to a T.

1 hour ago, Sindre said:

 

I do think he's got great potential though. When we went toe to toe with Liverpool in the SuperCup in his first season you couldn't help but get excited despite the shootout loss.

 

I remembered Kante single handedly best Liverpool 3 midfielder. 

52 minutes ago, Argo said:

Plus the league game vs them and the game at The Ethiad aswell. Outfootballing Ajax was a great thing for such the young team too.

That's what annoyed me the most at the end, how the hell did we go from that to the largely turgid style we saw post lockdown? There was a theory going round at the start that the muscle memory from Sarri's repetitive training and Lampard's more expressive philosophy hit a perfect sweetspot and in hindsight that's the only real explanation for such a regression in play style especially after being backed with players who fitted our pre lockdown style to a T.

Yeah, there was no shape either offensively or defensively towards the end unfortunately. Odd how it happened as we were in good form until 05.12 when we performed well v Leeds but from there until he was sacked on the 24.01 it was absolutely atrocious. At the time I and a lot of use wanted to give Lampard more time as seven weeks of bad results can be turned around. But I think it became clear the issues ran deeper than just tactics or inexperience too so in hindsight it was always going to end soon for him anyways.

But you can't really argue against the decision to bring Tuchel in to succeed him now.

1 minute ago, Sindre said:

Yeah, there was no shape either offensively or defensively towards the end unfortunately. Odd how it happened as we were in good form until 05.12 when we performed well v Leeds but from there until he was sacked on the 24.01 it was absolutely atrocious. At the time I and a lot of use wanted to give Lampard more time as seven weeks of bad results can be turned around. But I think it became clear the issues ran deeper than just tactics or inexperience too so in hindsight it was always going to end soon for him anyways.

But you can't really argue against the decision to bring Tuchel in to succeed him now.

I think the run upto December was in large down to the Silva/Mendy factor (ofcourse credit to Frank for getting them in), I still didn't feel the football was particularly great (Leeds aside) and there were signs we were becoming far too reliant on Ziyech's delivery.

The last time I truly enjoyed a game from beginning to end under Frank was the last one before lockdown vs Everton, I was really convinced that and the Liverpool game were sliding door moments, which made what transpired after all the more frustrating. 

26 minutes ago, Sindre said:

Yeah, there was no shape either offensively or defensively towards the end unfortunately. Odd how it happened as we were in good form until 05.12 when we performed well v Leeds but from there until he was sacked on the 24.01 it was absolutely atrocious. At the time I and a lot of use wanted to give Lampard more time as seven weeks of bad results can be turned around. But I think it became clear the issues ran deeper than just tactics or inexperience too so in hindsight it was always going to end soon for him anyways.

But you can't really argue against the decision to bring Tuchel in to succeed him now.

Inexperience is arguably the most important factor that costed Frank the job. I also thought at the time that we should be patient with him, hoping that he could somehow turn things around and build a legacy, because he certainly has the potential to be a great manager. But I have to admit that it was too early for him, and just like @axman2526 said, it would have probably been better for his career if he had taken a similar path to Gerrard's.

We can't say he didn't try to shake things up a bit during that run in December and January, because he was constantly rotating the players and trying to find a solution. But the problem is he didn't really intend to change the style of play. It all came down to sideways passing and pointless crossing all the time. We were in a dead end street and there was no clear plan B. Even if it had existed, he was too late to react.

What still makes me curious is his relation with Rudiger and Alonso. We can only speculate what exactly happened there and why was he so harsh on them...

8 minutes ago, wizardous said:

What still makes me curious is his relation with Rudiger and Alonso. We can only speculate what exactly happened there and why was he so harsh on them...

Tomori as well.

He even went on record after he went to Milan and said it was very hard to understand and that Lampard never gave him any explanation for being effectively frozen out all of a sudden.

It is a shame that he couldn’t make the new signings work. He seemed ok with the youth players. Unfortunately, time has shown it was the right decision. 
 

The integration of the youth players and achieving top 4 with the transfer ban/no Hazard was a remarkable achievement. Real shame he didn’t win the FA cup either. Sarri left the squad in a poor state and I said when he was appointed, if he achieved top 4, that is a great achievement. 

1 hour ago, Sindre said:

Tomori as well.

He even went on record after he went to Milan and said it was very hard to understand and that Lampard never gave him any explanation for being effectively frozen out all of a sudden.

Selling Tomori was also a huge mistake. He's been pretty good in that 19/20 season. But just like you said, he was dropped all of a sudden with no explanation.

I think we're going to regret that decision. He's become the key player in Milan's defence and one of the best centre backs in Serie A. Not to mention he's only 23 and he still has a lot of time to improve and reach his full potential. Milan have conceded four without him this week.

1 hour ago, wizardous said:

Selling Tomori was also a huge mistake. He's been pretty good in that 19/20 season. But just like you said, he was dropped all of a sudden with no explanation.

I think we're going to regret that decision. He's become the key player in Milan's defence and one of the best centre backs in Serie A. Not to mention he's only 23 and he still has a lot of time to improve and reach his full potential. Milan have conceded four without him this week.

Chalobah is already proving to be better than him in the same position though, £30m  in the bank and an upgrade ready to step in has proved to be good business.

1 hour ago, wizardous said:

Selling Tomori was also a huge mistake. He's been pretty good in that 19/20 season. But just like you said, he was dropped all of a sudden with no explanation.

I think we're going to regret that decision. He's become the key player in Milan's defence and one of the best centre backs in Serie A. Not to mention he's only 23 and he still has a lot of time to improve and reach his full potential. Milan have conceded four without him this week.

Lampard must have had his reasons. That he didn't express them in public means little. 

Frank continued to play most of the other younger players he bought through into the first team so Tomori must have done something for Lampard to lose confidence in playing him. 

But Tomori went from having little fanfare around him to being sold for £25m largely thanks to Frank developing him at both Chelsea and Derby. 

If he was still at Chelsea now it's hard to see that he'd necessarily get much playing time ahead of our other centre backs and given our defensive record to date this season I think we're pretty vindicated in our decision to sell him and Guehi. 

Almost £50m in bank from selling centre backs but still having the best defensive record in the league? Don't think you can really argue with that. 

6 minutes ago, ForeverCarefree said:

Lampard must have had his reasons. That he didn't express them in public means little. 

He should at least have told Tomori privately though. Tomori said after he signed for Milan that he didn't have the slightest idea and nothing was explained to him

Lampard probably had his reasons. But it's a great way to lose the dressing room when that happens to enough players and unfortunately that happened for him here.

 

6 minutes ago, Sindre said:

He should at least have told Tomori privately though. Tomori said after he signed for Milan that he didn't have the slightest idea and nothing was explained to him

Lampard probably had his reasons. But it's a great way to lose the dressing room when that happens to enough players and unfortunately that happened for him here.

Meh. I take everything a player says upon signing for a new club with a pinch of salt. 

Maybe Lampard previously laid out his expectations of what he wants from his players to deliver in training, on the pitch and maybe even away from it.

If Tomori didn't deliver then he isn't owed an explaination. 

But ultimately, who knows. 

All I would would say in Lampard's defence is that his track record with younger players at both Chelsea and Derby was very good. Tomori would be the anomaly if the relationship broke down. 

@Sindre

How much of an opportunity was it though really?

If you look at purley as an inexperienced manager being given the keys to one of the biggest jobs in world football then sure, huge shot in the arm. That does not tell the whole story though.

He is not Zidane, coming from the youth team settup and supported by the Madrid machine that can sign almost anyone they want. 

He gave up a job that had a promising first season and a connection to get access to the best youth settup in the country for loan players. Far less pressure, more time to learn to tricks of the trade. Being a former player means nothing in terms of managerial ability and experience. He did not know the mess derby have got themselves in now was coming.

At the time he left a club that fully supported him and backed him, giving him time to learn.

He did not get the Chelsea Claudio, or Jose, Or Carlo, or even Scolari got. He got a completely unknown animal. One that could not sign players and lost their star man.

He walked in not able to do anything other than play Kepa...a real handicap. And promot youth which brings its ups and downs, as we saw from the good and bad spells of Tomori, Tammy and Mason. Only James was consistent the majority of the time.

And despite all that it is Chelsea, it is always high pressured. You have to deliver with your hands tied and he took this one knowing he was not ready for it but doing it because we needed him and no top manager would come near us due to the ban and Hazard going.

We are the most difficult top club to manage in England bar none. Huge expectations, you must always deliver or you are out. Only PSG and Real compared to the high pressure to deliver always success.

So in short he decided to take the poison chalice that no top manager wanted to help the club he loves rather than doing the sensible thing of staying at the then stable job to learn the trade. It was a sacrifice to his career.

36 minutes ago, axman2526 said:

We are the most difficult top club to manage in England bar none. Huge expectations, you must always deliver or you are out. Only PSG and Real compared to the high pressure to deliver always success.

Barca, Bayern and Juve can be added to that list. Basically every top team/club bar United (and Arsenal if you still count them) expect results. 

Ofcourse a manager has to get strong results here, they get backed to the hilt and have the best academy in the world to tap into, you won't get a three year process with those type of resources and nor should you. Lampard earned the right to a transfer window and the chance to see if he could make the jump to getting us back into the title race but unfortuently it was beyond him, come the end of his tenure he wasn't even delivering the two things we thought was a safe bet with him (playing youth and good football).

I wouldn't say staying at Derby was a safe bet either, he would have lost his three best players with no money to replace them and even an experienced manager in Phillip Cocu fell flat on his face facing those circumstances. It would have been worse for him to dive down the league at Derby than it would have been with us, put it this way I highly doubt he'd have been offered the Norwich job had the former happened.

4 hours ago, JM7 said:

Sarri left the squad in a poor state and I said when he was appointed, if he achieved top 4, that is a great achievement. 

I think Sarri didn't really have much of a choice there regarding our squad, he openly said that he didn't know what was going on regarding Courtois and then afterwards Kepa as well, he even said that he didn't know the club was signing Pulisic at the time either so a lot of decisions had been made by the club and it's the club's fault that we had a transfer ban.

He is only responsible for the Jorginho signing, maybe partially for Kovacic, I'm not sure. I think that whole situation with him leaving for Juventus and the club having a transfer ban helped Lampard to become our manager as well.

You could argue that despite winning in both seasons while he was in charge that it was actually Conte that left the squad in a worse shape in comparison to how he found it, he is the one that failed to replace Diego Costa with Morata and that failed to bring in a stable central midfielder (Drinkwater + Bakayoko = 70m+ signings) but I guess Kante managed to hide some of that under the rug for some time.

6 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

I think Sarri didn't really have much of a choice there regarding our squad, he openly said that he didn't know what was going on regarding Courtois and then afterwards Kepa as well, he even said that he didn't know the club was signing Pulisic at the time either so a lot of decisions had been made by the club and it's the club's fault that we had a transfer ban.

He is only responsible for the Jorginho signing, maybe partially for Kovacic, I'm not sure. I think that whole situation with him leaving for Juventus and the club having a transfer ban helped Lampard to become our manager as well.

You could argue that despite winning in both seasons while he was in charge that it was actually Conte that left the squad in a worse shape in comparison to how he found it, he is the one that failed to replace Diego Costa with Morata and that failed to bring in a stable central midfielder (Drinkwater + Bakayoko = 70m+ signings) but I guess Kante managed to hide some of that under the rug for some time.

Yep, Conte's second season was a huge step back. We fell so far behind in not just results but style aswell.

1 hour ago, axman2526 said:

How much of an opportunity was it though really?

Huge opportunity mate.

I get what you are saying. And 19/20 was certainly a very challenging season for a lot of reasons.

But a little over a year ago today he started a season with a goalkeeper who's now got a serious claim to be the best in Europe, a defense that is undisputed the best in Europe and a midfield that's in the mix for the best midfield in Europe. And we are the reigning Champions of Europe. Now, Lampard couldn't get any of them to look as good as they have under Tuchel as harsh as that might be. But before last season he had every tool he needed to succeed.

And i'm not trying to be critical of Lampard. He's our greatest player ever with JT but he didn't sacrifice his career to come here. It was a once in a lifetime opportunity that he decided he had to take.
If Lampard didn't take it there wouldn't have been a shortage of other managers interested.

1 hour ago, Sindre said:

Huge opportunity mate.

I get what you are saying. And 19/20 was certainly a very challenging season for a lot of reasons.

But a little over a year ago today he started a season with a goalkeeper who's now got a serious claim to be the best in Europe, a defense that is undisputed the best in Europe and a midfield that's in the mix for the best midfield in Europe. And we are the reigning Champions of Europe. Now, Lampard couldn't get any of them to look as good as they have under Tuchel as harsh as that might be. But before last season he had every tool he needed to succeed.

And i'm not trying to be critical of Lampard. He's our greatest player ever with JT but he didn't sacrifice his career to come here. It was a once in a lifetime opportunity that he decided he had to take.
If Lampard didn't take it there wouldn't have been a shortage of other managers interested.

I understand that and am not saying he did not fail to get the most out of those players, however that is not the point I am making.

He did not know he would be able to pull off a top 4 finish and keep his job, he did not know our appeal would work and still not get any players in the Jan window.

He took a huge risk. No Hazard, Kepa in goal, unknown youth players first season in the top flight and still expected to deliver as Roman does not accept failure. If he finished tenth do you think Roman gives him that window to convince Silva to come or sacks him and gives it to someone else? Pretty sure we know what would have happened.

It became a huge opportunity because he succeeded with a posion chalice that did not start out as a huge opportunity imo.