7 hours ago, Dubair said:

The Arsenal game where Chelsea won 0-2 comfortably away from home ? Strange example to choose. 

Did you watch the game ?

10 hours ago, Bob stark said:

Until kante is back, he needs to find a solution as to how easy we’ve been to play through the middle the last while.

There I fixed it

If that's the case then that makes the decision to bring on our worst front line presser against West Ham even more odd.

On 09/12/2021 at 15:34, Gentian said:

Tuchel has being outstanding in most parts and has given all players a chance except changing formations! 

We are stuck with only Jorginho in the middle, but with a plethora of attacking players.

Why not try the 4-3-3 formation that is working so well for Liverpool and Man city. Our players are not inferior to them. Mount and Havertz can support Jorginho in the middle, they both have plenty of energy and can provide box to box support from midfield.

At the top Lukaku being supported by Werner and Ziyech, speed power and skill combined. 

Something like this: 

                   Mendy

James - silva - rudiger - Azpi

                    Jorginho 

        Havertz               Mount 

Ziyech                                  Werner 

                     Lukaku 

I would love to see this line up. 

That formation and personnel are almost exactly what started the rot for Lampard. You can't be good in defensive transition with Jorginho, Azpi and - to a lesser extent - Silva. So Lamps, knowing this, chose to drop Jorgi and play Kante in the 6 position which just caused new problems. 

Tuchel would undoubtedly prefer playing 4-3-3. But the reason why we won the CL and are fighting for the PL is he, unlike Super Frank, chose to put that aside and picks a style that works for the majority of our senior players. 

 

Edited December 10, 20214 yr by venom2011

20 minutes ago, venom2011 said:

That formation and personnel are almost exactly what started the rot for Lampard. You can't be good in defensive transition with Jorginho, Azpi and - to a lesser extent - Silva. So Lamps, knowing this, chose to drop Jorgi and play Kante in the 6 position which just caused new problems. 

Tuchel would undoubtedly prefer playing 4-3-3. But the reason why we won the CL and are fighting for the PL is he, unlike Super Frank, chose to put that aside and picks a style that works for the majority of our senior players. 

 

Sarri played 4-3-3 and finished top 3 and won Europa League, with worse defensive players.

1 hour ago, Gol15 said:

Sarri played 4-3-3 and finished top 3 and won Europa League, with worse defensive players.

No. Sarri had Kante, Azpi, Jorginho, Alonso, still somewhat in their prime. And the experience of Luiz and Cahill. Rudiger had a decent season. 

But more importantly Sarri benefitted from having the best player in the league at left wing. And two stalwarts in support of him. Hazard aside, if just 2018-2019 Pedro and Willian were here they'd be starting over this lot.

2 hours ago, Bob stark said:

Did you watch the game ?

Yes I did watch the game and it was a very comfortable afternoon except for a decent first 10 mins or so by Arsenal. If you want to look at the stats they also back this up. Chelsea had 65 % possession, 22 shots to Arsenals 5 and an xG of 3.17 to Arsenals 0.68.  I also recall Arsenal getting booed off at half time and full time. I think a better question would be what game were you watching.

6 minutes ago, venom2011 said:

No. Sarri had Kante, Azpi, Jorginho, Alonso, still somewhat in their prime. And the experience of Luiz and Cahill. Rudiger had a decent season. 

But more importantly Sarri benefitted from having the best player in the league at left wing. And two stalwarts in support of him. Hazard aside, if just 2018-2019 Pedro and Willian were here they'd be starting over this lot.

What defender did Sarri have that is better than the newer signing that Lampard had and that Tuchel has? I'll wait.

About Hazard, this goes to show that we need a manager that can make the attack work because apparently every other part of the squad has been doing their job but the attack, now if you ask me it's due to our system because IMO we do have some good talents up in front.

2 hours ago, Dubair said:

Yes I did watch the game and it was a very comfortable afternoon except for a decent first 10 mins or so by Arsenal. If you want to look at the stats they also back this up. Chelsea had 65 % possession, 22 shots to Arsenals 5 and an xG of 3.17 to Arsenals 0.68.  I also recall Arsenal getting booed off at half time and full time. I think a better question would be what game were you watching.

Nah you didn't watch the game. If you do, you won't quote stats.

Edited December 11, 20214 yr by Bob stark

5 hours ago, Argo said:

If that's the case then that makes the decision to bring on our worst front line presser against West Ham even more odd.

Against West Ham ? Why not .

Is west ham a team who want to only build from the back ? Nope, they are happy to kick long ball to Antonio and play from there. So yeah Lukaku hurt us a bit but really not that much because West Ham does not care too much about building from the back.

Bringing Lukaku actually make sense because it add taller player to fight against set pieces which is again another west ham strength.

 

4 hours ago, Gol15 said:

Sarri played 4-3-3 and finished top 3 and won Europa League, with worse defensive players.

You forget to add motivated Hazard.

 

53 minutes ago, Bob stark said:

You forget to add motivated Hazard.

 

Yea, Sarri knew how to use him. Not sure if Tuchel knows how to use our current attacking players, I mean it took him 6 months to stop using CHO as a wing back...

1 hour ago, Gol15 said:

Yea, Sarri knew how to use him. Not sure if Tuchel knows how to use our current attacking players, I mean it took him 6 months to stop using CHO as a wing back...

I completely agree with you saying CHO as wb is a waste of talent. But as much as I like cho and our attacking crop, comparing them to Hazard make very little sense.

Hazard was not just a wc player, he was an all timer player. How do you get the best out of Hazard, get him the ball. Done.

 

7 hours ago, Bob stark said:

Nah you didn't watch the game. If you do, you won't quote stats.

Excellent response by someone who’s clearly been caught out bluffing. You haven’t a clue what you’re on about.

11 hours ago, Gol15 said:

What defender did Sarri have that is better than the newer signing that Lampard had and that Tuchel has? I'll wait.

About Hazard, this goes to show that we need a manager that can make the attack work because apparently every other part of the squad has been doing their job but the attack, now if you ask me it's due to our system because IMO we do have some good talents up in front.

You can continue to wait, as that is a very different question to - did Sarri have 'worse defensive players' than Tuchel?

I get what you're saying about the attack, but I'm of the opposite opinion and am much more inclined to blame the personnel. Blame is a bit strong though - Mount, Havertz, Cho, are all young and understandably inconsistent. Werner and Ziyech are inexperienced in the PL. None of them (our attacking core) have been consistently impressive.

They are miles behind the attacking cores of Liverpool and City no matter which combination or formation you select. Our competitive advantage is simply not in attack. It lies in the experience we have at the back, and if you can cover for the physical weaknesses of Jorginho, Alonso, Azpi etc through a certain system, then TT is simply maximising our competitive advantage. 

Lastly, our attack 'works' fine. We create a ton of chances and big chances. But most importantly, what can't be accounted for in stats is decisiveness and decision-making . At the start of the 2nd half against Zenit there were immediately two opportunities to play our forwards into v.good goalscoring positions. City and Pool play those balls. Our attackers held the ball and eventually spread it wide. 

 

 

6 hours ago, Bob stark said:

I completely agree with you saying CHO as wb is a waste of talent. But as much as I like cho and our attacking crop, comparing them to Hazard make very little sense.

Hazard was not just a wc player, he was an all timer player. How do you get the best out of Hazard, get him the ball. Done.

 

I'm afraid it's not that simple. 

38 minutes ago, venom2011 said:

You can continue to wait, as that is a very different question to - did Sarri have 'worse defensive players' than Tuchel?

I get what you're saying about the attack, but I'm of the opposite opinion and am much more inclined to blame the personnel. Blame is a bit strong though - Mount, Havertz, Cho, are all young and understandably inconsistent. Werner and Ziyech are inexperienced in the PL. None of them (our attacking core) have been consistently impressive.

They are miles behind the attacking cores of Liverpool and City no matter which combination or formation you select. Our competitive advantage is simply not in attack. It lies in the experience we have at the back, and if you can cover for the physical weaknesses of Jorginho, Alonso, Azpi etc through a certain system, then TT is simply maximising our competitive advantage. 

Lastly, our attack 'works' fine. We create a ton of chances and big chances. But most importantly, what can't be accounted for in stats is decisiveness and decision-making . At the start of the 2nd half against Zenit there were immediately two opportunities to play our forwards into v.good goalscoring positions. City and Pool play those balls. Our attackers held the ball and eventually spread it wide. 

 

 

My whole point is that there is this huge body of evidence, we played a full season in a 4-3-3 and managed to do well, specially well in defense considering that Sarri inherited players that were and some still are clearly suited for Conte's style of play with the 3 at the back.

We didn't rely on outscoring our opponents knowing that we will always concede a few goals, so I can't agree that we wouldn't be able to play that formation now when we have a better squad. The only player that you can argue that was better before is Azpilicueta and that's only due to age, but we have Chilwell, James, T.Silva that is one of the greatest of his generation and Mendy that has proven to be much better than Kepa. 

So there is no reason for me to disregard our potential, just because Tuchel managed to do well defensively it doesn't mean that this system is the best we can do. After all, most big teams don't play with the 3 at the back, you can tell me that we create chances and waste them but if we look at our rivals, they also create chances and also miss them but it doesn't affect them as much as it affects us.

15 hours ago, venom2011 said:

That formation and personnel are almost exactly what started the rot for Lampard. You can't be good in defensive transition with Jorginho, Azpi and - to a lesser extent - Silva. So Lamps, knowing this, chose to drop Jorgi and play Kante in the 6 position which just caused new problems. 

Tuchel would undoubtedly prefer playing 4-3-3. But the reason why we won the CL and are fighting for the PL is he, unlike Super Frank, chose to put that aside and picks a style that works for the majority of our senior players. 

 

I mean why not try a new system since we have a lack of fit midfielders for the 3-4-3 system and only Jorginho is fit enough. It doesn't have to be indefinitely. Now is the perfect chance with all of our attacking players fit. 

Besides, it will give other teams something new to think about as alot of our opponents are getting comfortable with our current ways. 

Also, i do believe that this team is much better than what Lampard had. Mount and James have developed into world class, Silva is accustomed by now with the premier league and we can find out if Rudiger really deserves that big money he is asking for. 

Like I said currently the only small dislike i have, it's the lack of plan B from Tuchel. 

6 hours ago, Dubair said:

Excellent response by someone who’s clearly been caught out bluffing. You haven’t a clue what you’re on 

🤣🤣

Next time watch the game, don't just read the stats after the game

5 hours ago, Gol15 said:

I'm afraid it's not that simple. 

Nope it's that simple.

Hazard has played well under any manager any system. 

3 hours ago, Gentian said:

I mean why not try a new system since we have a lack of fit midfielders for the 3-4-3 system and only Jorginho is fit enough. It doesn't have to be indefinitely. Now is the perfect chance with all of our attacking players fit. 

Besides, it will give other teams something new to think about as alot of our opponents are getting comfortable with our current ways. 

Also, i do believe that this team is much better than what Lampard had. Mount and James have developed into world class, Silva is accustomed by now with the premier league and we can find out if Rudiger really deserves that big money he is asking for. 

Like I said currently the only small dislike i have, it's the lack of plan B from Tuchel. 

How do you plan to defend against transition ?

 

You know it's "same old Chelsea" when you read the words Transition and No Plan B   It usually means we win a trophy, get a new manager or both.

Edited December 11, 20214 yr by Valerie

Pathetic performance but a win is a win. Especially against Leeds. 

I'll rage about the w**k performance the next time we put in another w**k performance. 

As a man known as the "master tinkerer", his refusal to move away from the 3 back or any evidence of a plan B; is quite mind boggling.

 

The biggest tactical change I have noticed is Tuchel having Alonso and James move into midfield a lot more. We were doing it just before Chilwell got injured but not as much as we are now, I don't think it's helping. The fullbacks are doing way too much running, you could actually see James and Alonso becoming burned out as the game went on. James also hasn't been able to ping any crossess in of late either because he isn't available on the wing as much.

I want James running in behind defenders again waiting for a pass to be played into him so he can get a cross or shot off, not hanging back on the edge of the area in front of the defence.

Agree on the wingbacks coming to midfield more frequently, and it doesn't appear to be helping us at all.

Something has gone off the boil.  I thought a wobble was coming, but wonder if club politics are starting to run deeper here also.  Not like TT to not even stand up, and from what I saw and heard, he was seated all second half.  I don't think he thinks the players are listening like they once did.