3 hours ago, True Blue23 said:

I agree that our attack needs improving, but I find it a bit simple to think it's going to be better if we just switch to a back 4. 

I admit it does sound simple but I don't enjoy seeing our top players being so average for so long so I will just rant to you how I experience our current system here, just to try to explain that from a spectator's view our whole tactic seems to be putting the most weight at the wrong places;

I think that we depend too much on our full-backs to create something while our attackers basically play the decoy while being marked and the last game shows it.

We managed to win against Leeds due to our current tactic, sure it still works but the way it works it doesn't really help our strikers. It looks like it really doesn't matter who you put there, put prime Drogba it's still all up to our full back or defender to win us the game, that's how it looks like this season.

-First goal due to an important part of our system, high press. Full-back recovers the ball, plays a 1-2 pass and ultimately assists Mount. But you notice that Havertz isn't getting involved at all. So press high, count on the full-back to get it done, this time Alonso. I mean, props to Mount for his work rate, but he is going to do that in every formation and in every game, that's not really Tuchel telling him anything that's just how he has always been.

-Later on the attackers are still having it hard to get involved but Rudiger wins a penalty, again a CB plays a key role in our way of finding a goal and this has been a real feature this season for us, Rudiger has a lot of freedom when we have the ball he goes forward and carries the ball a lot, while our attackers are watching and being marked.

-Last goal Rudiger wins the penalty again, while Lukaku and Havertz are not involved at all and while Mount is next to the touchline passing to him, meaning not in a good position to do much.

All I see is these particular positions (Full back, Centre back) having to exploit the space they are given, while our striker is being static, this is our tactic and let's face it, it's not about catering to our star players. It begs the question why did we even need a huge signing of Lukaku, it could have been almost anyone.

But now let's compare our setup and result, to Man City's win against Leeds: Like day and night!
Their players are constantly moving into space and getting openings and their wingers get the ball in the box and then obviously they are more dangerous. Their star players get to shine.
We got 2 penalties due to Rudiger, without that detail I'm not sure if we manage to score 3 goals there and let's be honest, Rudiger winning those penalties was a vintage performance and somewhat a blunder from Leeds, odds are that won't happen again in the near future. Yes we score goals we have almost as many different scorers as Man City but the way we do it, we don't look like PL winners, they do.

I can't really say that our attack would automatically be better if we were to switch to another formation but I know this much, our wingers and attackers would automatically need to be more active, more involved and they would need to take more responsibility to get things done and to change the scoreboard.

 

 

Edited December 16, 20214 yr by Gol15

6 hours ago, Gol15 said:

I admit it does sound simple but I don't enjoy seeing our top players being so average for so long so I will just rant to you how I experience our current system here, just to try to explain that from a spectator's view our whole tactic seems to be putting the most weight at the wrong places;

I think that we depend too much on our full-backs to create something while our attackers basically play the decoy while being marked and the last game shows it.

We managed to win against Leeds due to our current tactic, sure it still works but the way it works it doesn't really help our strikers. It looks like it really doesn't matter who you put there, put prime Drogba it's still all up to our full back or defender to win us the game, that's how it looks like this season.

-First goal due to an important part of our system, high press. Full-back recovers the ball, plays a 1-2 pass and ultimately assists Mount. But you notice that Havertz isn't getting involved at all. So press high, count on the full-back to get it done, this time Alonso. I mean, props to Mount for his work rate, but he is going to do that in every formation and in every game, that's not really Tuchel telling him anything that's just how he has always been.

-Later on the attackers are still having it hard to get involved but Rudiger wins a penalty, again a CB plays a key role in our way of finding a goal and this has been a real feature this season for us, Rudiger has a lot of freedom when we have the ball he goes forward and carries the ball a lot, while our attackers are watching and being marked.

-Last goal Rudiger wins the penalty again, while Lukaku and Havertz are not involved at all and while Mount is next to the touchline passing to him, meaning not in a good position to do much.

All I see is these particular positions (Full back, Centre back) having to exploit the space they are given, while our striker is being static, this is our tactic and let's face it, it's not about catering to our star players. It begs the question why did we even need a huge signing of Lukaku, it could have been almost anyone.

But now let's compare our setup and result, to Man City's win against Leeds: Like day and night!
Their players are constantly moving into space and getting openings and their wingers get the ball in the box and then obviously they are more dangerous. Their star players get to shine.
We got 2 penalties due to Rudiger, without that detail I'm not sure if we manage to score 3 goals there and let's be honest, Rudiger winning those penalties was a vintage performance and somewhat a blunder from Leeds, odds are that won't happen again in the near future. Yes we score goals we have almost as many different scorers as Man City but the way we do it, we don't look like PL winners, they do.

I can't really say that our attack would automatically be better if we were to switch to another formation but I know this much, our wingers and attackers would automatically need to be more active, more involved and they would need to take more responsibility to get things done and to change the scoreboard.

 

 

Spot on really this post.

I might add my analysis to the situation because I'm bored out of my skull in work.

We don't have anyone that can consistently cut the line of defence from midfield, it is infuriating. I believe the difference between us and City is their ability to pass through the lines. They have incredible passers of the ball; how many times do we see De Bruyne break the line? Silva break the line? Gundogan? The list is endless. They have forward passes across the midfield. We are lucky to see one genuine through ball every couple of games that results in a goal. Most of the time we are, as Gol said, relying on fullbacks putting balls in to the box or CB's bumbling their way to a goal. We can harp on about Lukaku, Werner, Havertz as much as we like, heck I've been the biggest critic of Havertz; however, their supply lines from midfield are practically non-existent in this team. We have a very good counter-pressing midfield, they are very solid at carrying the ball but that's as far as it goes. I can full on guarantee you put either of those 3 players in the Man City team, for example, they're firing on cylinders; these aren't poor players, they're just being expected to feed off scraps. The same would have happened if we'd signed Haaland, he'd have no supply. It is ESSENTIAL we develop and bring a Gilmour/Gallagher back in to this team; both of which I think have the potential to unlock far more opportunities than any of our current midfield. Big statement I know. Either that, or we genuinely try and find ourselves a gem in the summer. We got away with it last year, we essentially resulted to sheer will and desire to win the CL; the teams we played couldn't live with that energy. As we move forward and our players tire (inevitably) and injuries happen (inevitably), the weaknesses in our forward play are getting exploited. We will not win the PL title until we start to get our forwards scoring goals and in order to fix that, we don't need to replace them all with £100m players, the problem lies in midfield. 

22 minutes ago, thebluekid said:

We will not win the PL title until we start to get our forwards scoring goals and in order to fix that, we don't need to replace them all with £100m players, the problem lies in midfield. 

I agree with a lot of what you wrote. Kovacic had a fine start to the season with five assists though so he was bringing some of that much needed creativity from midfield before he got injured/Covid for the past two months. He's been a big loss.

Personally I believe the forwards are a bigger issue than our midfielders. Jorginho (our Rodri if you want to draw comparisons to City), Kante and Kovacic are all top players. I feel we lack a lot of "magic" in our forward players though. You see City play and you realize Bernardo, Mahrez, Foden, Grealish, De Bruyne and more have the ability to turn opposing players inside out on a regular basis. Same with Salah and Mane at Liverpool. We are still quite workmanlike in that regard with a lot of effort and pressing we desperately needs someone who's able to take a hold of the ball and make something happen up front. 

35 minutes ago, thebluekid said:

Spot on really this post.

I might add my analysis to the situation because I'm bored out of my skull in work.

We don't have anyone that can consistently cut the line of defence from midfield, it is infuriating. I believe the difference between us and City is their ability to pass through the lines. They have incredible passers of the ball; how many times do we see De Bruyne break the line? Silva break the line? Gundogan? The list is endless. They have forward passes across the midfield. We are lucky to see one genuine through ball every couple of games that results in a goal. Most of the time we are, as Gol said, relying on fullbacks putting balls in to the box or CB's bumbling their way to a goal. We can harp on about Lukaku, Werner, Havertz as much as we like, heck I've been the biggest critic of Havertz; however, their supply lines from midfield are practically non-existent in this team. We have a very good counter-pressing midfield, they are very solid at carrying the ball but that's as far as it goes. I can full on guarantee you put either of those 3 players in the Man City team, for example, they're firing on cylinders; these aren't poor players, they're just being expected to feed off scraps. The same would have happened if we'd signed Haaland, he'd have no supply. It is ESSENTIAL we develop and bring a Gilmour/Gallagher back in to this team; both of which I think have the potential to unlock far more opportunities than any of our current midfield. Big statement I know. Either that, or we genuinely try and find ourselves a gem in the summer. We got away with it last year, we essentially resulted to sheer will and desire to win the CL; the teams we played couldn't live with that energy. As we move forward and our players tire (inevitably) and injuries happen (inevitably), the weaknesses in our forward play are getting exploited. We will not win the PL title until we start to get our forwards scoring goals and in order to fix that, we don't need to replace them all with £100m players, the problem lies in midfield. 

Did you just agree with gol and at the same time take a shot at jorgi ?

 

19 hours ago, Gol15 said:

I agree about Aubameyang, I give you that, he made him into a dangerous striker.

But didn't he openly say that if Mbappe can't play that they have absolutely no chance against a much weaker team Atalanta in the CL? Despite having Icardi, Cavani, Neymar? He reached the final that year of the CL when there was only 1 single elimination match from the quarter finals and against Bayern his amazing attackers didn't create a single chance from what I remember.

Also did he ever play with a back 3 in Dortmund and PSG?

Not true. PSG had he biggest chances to get the lead back in the final agains t PSG. Mbappé missed a sitter against Neuer in 1v1 and DiMaria as well. It shouldn't be forgotten that both Mbappé and Neymar just came back from injuries as well and were without much match practice as well since they had just re-started after months (without being allowed to train - not even cyber training like Bayern Munich called it during lock-down).

 

He played extremely rarely with a back three with Dortmund. Basically only against Bayern IIRC. BVB achieved also the record of scored goals ever during CL group stage - just after losing prime Hummels, Miki and Gündogan. He also started to play with a back three only during his last half a year at PSG (and that was during injury crisis and after losing Thiago without any new elite CB signed as a replacement. Mainz was also a beautifully attacking side under TT. 

 

To think he's only able to create a nice attacking play with elite personnel is a bit ... irritating tbh.  

Sorry, some serious spelling et al mistakes up there but I don't seem to be able to edit it.

4 hours ago, weetee said:

Not true. PSG had he biggest chances to get the lead back in the final agains t PSG. Mbappé missed a sitter against Neuer in 1v1 and DiMaria as well. It shouldn't be forgotten that both Mbappé and Neymar just came back from injuries as well and were without much match practice as well since they had just re-started after months (without being allowed to train - not even cyber training like Bayern Munich called it during lock-down).

 

He played extremely rarely with a back three with Dortmund. Basically only against Bayern IIRC. BVB achieved also the record of scored goals ever during CL group stage - just after losing prime Hummels, Miki and Gündogan. He also started to play with a back three only during his last half a year at PSG (and that was during injury crisis and after losing Thiago without any new elite CB signed as a replacement. Mainz was also a beautifully attacking side under TT. 

 

To think he's only able to create a nice attacking play with elite personnel is a bit ... irritating tbh.  

All I remember is Bayern dominating and then scoring, but you're right my mistake there, PSG did have a chance at the start of the game. Props for that correction.

7 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

All I remember is Bayern dominating and then scoring, but you're right my mistake there, PSG did have a chance at the start of the game. Props for that correction.

My intention wasn't to nitpick but a) I think the final was a 50/50 up to the point when Bayern went ahead and PSG didn't had the power to come back afterwards (due to covid/lockdown reasons and b) also because some of the most important players like Mbappé really just came back from injury, Verratti too was injured and Neymar wasn't 100% fit as well). Cavani already left the club and Icardi was in awful form (as 90% during his PSG tenure - Choupo Moting was ahead of him in the pecking order at that time..). 

So to pick this game as an example where TT didn't get his strikers performing is a bit unfair (to say the least). Lewandowski had one single (big) chance in that game IIRC. First half it was totally balanced with slight advantages to Paris with Neuer having 1-2 brilliant saves / PSG not scoring a couple of sitters.

 

Tuchel should consider playing three in the middle until we get Kovacic and Kante back. I don't think a two man pivot is going to work with the current crop of midfielders,

Two wins in our last six games, one of those took us being awarded two penalties to get the win.

We're playing badly at the the moment. The defensively solidity that was the foundation of the good start to the season has completely gone.

With the exception of Mount none of forward players look like scoring.

We're persisting with the same system and tactics but look like we've been figured out at the moment.

Come on Tommy, sort it out.

20+ shots and only 1 goal?

Tuchel should slap the forwards today and ask them what is going on

2 minutes ago, ForeverCarefree said:

With the exception of Mount none of forward players look like scoring.

Mainly because they are all sh*te, bar Mount.

Massive failure in recruitment to even bring them to the club.

And no, they are not going to get away with shifting the blame over to the manager. No manager can score a single goal, it's down to the actual players to get the ball in the net. And we are, as a team creating plenty enough for them to score a lot.

I know we had some players out, but Tuchel also cost us in that game by using Saul when he has consistently failed us in the past. Why is he still even on the bench? Just ship him back to Madrid and pay the rest of his wages if we have to. 

Maybe needs to go back to the drawing board, because this side does not have what it takes to win the league. I think if we have a fit side, we can do well in europe again, but we are lacking something in the league. 

Might not be the worse thing if a couple of the centte backs do leave, and we bring in 2 that can play in 4, so we can get an extra attacking player on the pitch. 

I don’t think any blame can be put on tuchel for today. Bare bones squad that should have been 3 or 4 up at half time but nobody can finish.

Maybe needs to go back to the drawing board, because this side does not have what it takes to win the league. I think if we have a fit side, we can do well in europe again, but we are lacking something in the league. 

Might not be the worse thing if a couple of the centte backs do leave, and we bring in 2 that can play in 4, so we can get an extra attacking player on the pitch. 

9 minutes ago, big blue said:

Might not be the worse thing if a couple of the centre backs do leave, and we bring in 2 that can play in 4, so we can get an extra attacking player on the pitch. 

Just so long as that extra attacker is also someone we bring in (or bring back from loan)  ! The current lot haven't exactly made a compelling case that it should be any of them !

He subs made us worse i think despite the goal. When we go 1-0 up instead of just controlling the game we look all over the place. Rudiger forcing long passes to Mount, Ziyech instead of a simple pass goes for a harder pass and we lose it.

1 minute ago, Sexyfootball said:

Just so long as that extra attacker is also someone we bring in (or bring back from loan)  ! The current lot haven't exactly made a compelling case that it should be any of them !

Literally just posted in Ziyech thread about getting rid of 3 of them! 

Personally i think Chiesa would be lethal in the prem, and i also really like Neto and Raphina. 

 

He’s encountering the same attitude problems Lampard sounded out and wanted to address. Too many players who’d feel more at home in Tottenham’s squad. 

He had very little to play with, needed his 11 players on the field to do the job, couldn't even defence one lousy set piece. We just lost that calmness and composure recently, all we had to do after the goal was hold on the ball and take more energy out of them, yet we lost possession easily, conceded the free kick, and nobody defended that FK.

4 minutes ago, Munkworth said:

He’s encountering the same attitude problems Lampard sounded out and wanted to address. Too many players who’d feel more at home in Tottenham’s squad. 

If we can gut the squad now and remove the deadwood, it'd be better for us in the long term. 

Players like Alonso, Saul, Kepa, Barkley, Baker needs to be moved on. 

The likes of Lukaku, Werner, and Ziyech needs a swift kick up the arse. Put up the numbers or leave. 

Havertz, Pulisic, CHO etc. needs to be developed under a new offensive coach that Tuchel should bring in. We need that someone with the Rene Meulensteen effect. 

8 minutes ago, Deino said:

If we can gut the squad now and remove the deadwood, it'd be better for us in the long term. 

Players like Alonso, Saul, Kepa, Barkley, Baker needs to be moved on. 

The likes of Lukaku, Werner, and Ziyech needs a swift kick up the arse. Put up the numbers or leave. 

Havertz, Pulisic, CHO etc. needs to be developed under a new offensive coach that Tuchel should bring in. We need that someone with the Rene Meulensteen effect. 

Harsh to mention Baker in that group when he hasn't played at all. Not saying he would be good enough but all the others have had plenty of opportunities.

30 minutes ago, big blue said:

Literally just posted in Ziyech thread about getting rid of 3 of them! 

Personally i think Chiesa would be lethal in the prem, and i also really like Neto and Raphina. 

 

They all have the same issues though. Chiesa runs a lot and is a nuisance, but not much of a goal threat. Neto hasn't played all season and he only turns up a handful of times a season. Raphinha's decision making is all over the place, he can be as frustrating as any of our forwards.

54 minutes ago, timetowaste said:

I don’t think any blame can be put on tuchel for today. Bare bones squad that should have been 3 or 4 up at half time but nobody can finish.

Everton had such an inexperienced side out tonight. Even our 2nd string players should have steamrolled them.