2 hours ago, axman2526 said:

First step make Broja one of his key forwards.

100% mate. I think a lot of us would have preferred we had just gambled on him last summer and saved ourselves £100m which could have gone to Koundé or Rice. 

I could imagine he would look good alongside Kai, Mason, CHO and couple others.

Whatever the reason we are not very entertaining side. We look like one of Jose's sides to be honest. Any kind of freedom, self expression or creativity has left the team. 

9 hours ago, LongtimerLurker said:

We've gone back and forth between who's at fault for a lack of goals Tuchel, tactics, players, system etc. 

Using possesional territory at home as a baseline we can see that like City and Liverpool we dominate similar areas yet don't come close to proficiency in goal output. Now whilst this chart only provides information on possesion and is only relevant to home games I do think it's quite interesting.

The reason I bring this up is were we to have a clear out in the summer and replace 3 of our forwards (no one specifically just any 3 ideally the 3 who have been the most lacklustre) would we see a lot more goals or would things remain the same?

Begs the question what is an ideal Thomas Tuchel forward, who on the market could come in and do what he wants. It's not as simple as saying kicking the ball into the net. Klopp, Pep and TT require distinct characteristics from all their players so were we to get in a couple more forwards for example do people really think much would change? 

I'm going to say yes and not because I think our players aren't good enough, I just think it's more to do with the fit between manager, system and player. Going by the territory map we do everything right except the forwards scoring consistently, perhaps we just don't have the right archetype of forwards for Tuchel. Sounds simple but getting the right profile in may prove difficult considering how our board do business.

Seems simple to me like Klopp and Pep, let TT have his first choice players and try and build a dynasty with our academy.

 

Barcelona msn. You need players who are comfortable playing in tight spaces.

Our old front 3

Hazard,willian, pedro and costa can certainly work also.

Edited February 10, 20224 yr by Bob stark

3 hours ago, evissy said:

Any kind of freedom, self expression or creativity has left the team. 

I think the freedom is there and Ziyech tries to be fair to him. He's also been our best attacker lately.

But the others are just so, so workmanlike in everything they do. Everything seems to be a struggle, even the basics and I think it's a player issue and not a coaching issue. You can list them up, Mount, Havertz, Werner, CHO, Pulisic, there is hardly an ounce of creativity in any of them. And while Pulisic can be a good dribbler when he's in form none of the rest can even beat a man consistently so of course we become a bit predictable with no real ability to beat and man and no real creativity either.

This is how Coutinho looked for Villa v Leeds yesterday with a goal and two assists. That's excactly the kind of player we are missing in my opinion and I don't know why we weren't looking to bring him in. Because that there looks to have been a better performance than i've seen any from any of our attackers for ages.

 

1 hour ago, Sindre said:

I think the freedom is there and Ziyech tries to be fair to him. He's also been our best attacker lately.

But the others are just so, so workmanlike in everything they do. Everything seems to be a struggle, even the basics and I think it's a player issue and not a coaching issue. You can list them up, Mount, Havertz, Werner, CHO, Pulisic, there is hardly an ounce of creativity in any of them. And while Pulisic can be a good dribbler when he's in form none of the rest can even beat a man consistently so of course we become a bit predictable with no real ability to beat and man and no real creativity either.

This is how Coutinho looked for Villa v Leeds yesterday with a goal and two assists. That's excactly the kind of player we are missing in my opinion and I don't know why we weren't looking to bring him in. Because that there looks to have been a better performance than i've seen any from any of our attackers for ages.

 

10/10 performances last night, and James of Leeds wasn’t that far behind, this is what I hoped Werner might be, but he’s still playing with his boots on the wrong feet, but better than those lead boots Lukaku is playing in….

Majority of the team doesn't look to be playing with much confidence at the moment. 

We've huffed and puffed to wins against Plymouth Argyle and Al-Hilal, teams with a fraction of our rescources and they both made us look pretty ordinary. 

The ball isn't getting forward quickly enough. Players keep taking the safe option when it comes to the passes they're making so instead of us being desicive we're just tapping it around the 18 yard area, teams get back into shape and in numbers and there's no space to exploit. 

Tuchel has shuffled the formations around a little recently but it's making no difference. I don't know what the answer is and it's starting to look like Tuchel doesn't either. 

Tuchel is not fresh anymore. Seems like the clubs idea of freshening the football is to change managers. We have also played most games than any other club in the world.

Our only constant players are the defenders like Tony. Otherwise the side is in constant rotation, which is a must but when Pulisic comes to the side he hardly remembers the name of his team mates not to mention how he plays. Liverpool for example doesn't have this problem.

4 hours ago, Sindre said:

I think the freedom is there and Ziyech tries to be fair to him. He's also been our best attacker lately.

But the others are just so, so workmanlike in everything they do. Everything seems to be a struggle, even the basics and I think it's a player issue and not a coaching issue. You can list them up, Mount, Havertz, Werner, CHO, Pulisic, there is hardly an ounce of creativity in any of them. And while Pulisic can be a good dribbler when he's in form none of the rest can even beat a man consistently so of course we become a bit predictable with no real ability to beat and man and no real creativity either.

This is how Coutinho looked for Villa v Leeds yesterday with a goal and two assists. That's excactly the kind of player we are missing in my opinion and I don't know why we weren't looking to bring him in. Because that there looks to have been a better performance than i've seen any from any of our attackers for ages.

 

We just don't have that magic player right now sadly, whilst Ziyech is in good form and that's great to see, we don't have a world class attacker in this squad it seems. At least not consistently, I remember when Eden was here at least we used to look forward to games just to watch him play.

Now who do we look forward to seeing in particular? Mason? Maybe but we don't have that spark that really makes us tick and also makes the team attractive to watch.

I must confess I do like watching Kai play he does have a silkines about him and when Pulisic is in form he's a joy to watch. Heck watching CHO dribbling at people is often the highlight for me but none of these are at the consistent level we require. Whilst I'm willing to give them time I do think we need a prime attacker who will take the team on their shoulders like Eden used to.

Lets hope Tuchel finds one soon.

It's possible that we end up with a significantly different squad next season given the departure of the defenders and maybe we sell some key players like Jorginho and Kante.

By the end of this February we can have 2 titles, this Club World Cup and the League Cup if we win against Liverpool so those 2 smaller cups + top 4 finish should be enough for Tuchel to not worry about his future and then just get a fresh squad to work with in the summer.

4 hours ago, Gol15 said:

It's possible that we end up with a significantly different squad next season given the departure of the defenders and maybe we sell some key players like Jorginho and Kante.

By the end of this February we can have 2 titles, this Club World Cup and the League Cup if we win against Liverpool so those 2 smaller cups + top 4 finish should be enough for Tuchel to not worry about his future and then just get a fresh squad to work with in the summer.

Depends if we want one more season of them or a transfer fee. 

Is widely reported Jorgi does not want a new contract and wants to go back Italy, and will do so either this summer or the next. I have seen it written his preference is to go back to Napoli, so he may hold off even if we agree to sell him unless it is to them so he can decide his own future.

Kante is reported to want another long term contract, not a 2 year one that he would get here and would apparently fancy a new project. Again he may decide he does not want to be sold and can fully decide his future the following summer.

The free transfer market I think will become larger as players seek a bigger slice of the cash involved.

After watching Jota turn it on for Liverpool again and how decent this new Luis Diaz guy is I think it's clear why attackers for Liverpool have worked so well and same for City.

Pretty much all of Pep's forwards are productive. Klopp picked Mane, Salah, Jota and they've all been top draw. I think the only possible outcome to get the attack working is to let Tuchel identify who he wants and bring them in.

Tuchel's first choice targets will be needed to compete with City and Liverpool. We need a front 3 to rival theirs, our defence is good enough to rival anybodies but the attack needs elite fwds to make the most of the chances we create.

 

 

6 minutes ago, LongtimerLurker said:

After watching Jota turn it on for Liverpool again and how decent this new Luis Diaz guy is I think it's clear why attackers for Liverpool have worked so well and same for City.

Pretty much all of Pep's forwards are productive. Klopp picked Mane, Salah, Jota and they've all been top draw. I think the only possible outcome to get the attack working is to let Tuchel identify who he wants and bring them in.

Tuchel's first choice targets will be needed to compete with City and Liverpool. We need a front 3 to rival theirs, our defence is good enough to rival anybodies but the attack needs elite fwds to make the most of the chances we create.

 

 

Good in theory. Question is did TT want lukaku?

7 minutes ago, LongtimerLurker said:

After watching Jota turn it on for Liverpool again and how decent this new Luis Diaz guy is I think it's clear why attackers for Liverpool have worked so well and same for City.

Pretty much all of Pep's forwards are productive. Klopp picked Mane, Salah, Jota and they've all been top draw. I think the only possible outcome to get the attack working is to let Tuchel identify who he wants and bring them in.

Tuchel's first choice targets will be needed to compete with City and Liverpool. We need a front 3 to rival theirs, our defence is good enough to rival anybodies but the attack needs elite fwds to make the most of the chances we create.

 

 

I agree. But we also have to say Lukaku came under his watch. He wanted Haaland and the board told him only Lukaku was possible. Maybe he didn't want to ruffle feathers with the board after his PSG experience. But he did green light the Lukaku signing which has set us back for years now. 

He might get to bring a few attackers but Lukaku will be his mainstay and I am not sure what will happen if he can't get him firing. 

Edited February 10, 20224 yr by RomansRoubles

3 hours ago, axman2526 said:

Good in theory. Question is did TT want lukaku?

Yes.

9 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

Yes.

If true makes it hard to trust his judgement in signing players.

A lot of talk about our forward lack of goals, let's just compare one instance of our attack

 To liverpool

Similar play, with 3 player in the box. Pool has firmino, jones and jota in the box, we have alonso,lukaku and azpi. 

Clearly now you can tell why we can't judge our wb as just defender because in our team they are attackers. 

2 hours ago, Bob stark said:

A lot of talk about our forward lack of goals, let's just compare one instance of our attack

 To liverpool

Similar play, with 3 player in the box. Pool has firmino, jones and jota in the box, we have alonso,lukaku and azpi. 

Clearly now you can tell why we can't judge our wb as just defender because in our team they are attackers. 

Issue is the system is flawed then. You don’t want your defenders getting on the end of things in your opposition box, it’s your forward players. Begs the question; is  it our defenders taking part in shooting drills in training? 
 

Another problem I have picked up on which you can see in the pictures is Liverpool’s delivery tend to come from deep which favours their forward players and runners into the box, while our players try to get  to the byline which tends to favour the opposition.

Edited February 11, 20224 yr by ducavis

9 hours ago, LongtimerLurker said:

After watching Jota turn it on for Liverpool again and how decent this new Luis Diaz guy is I think it's clear why attackers for Liverpool have worked so well and same for City.

Pretty much all of Pep's forwards are productive. Klopp picked Mane, Salah, Jota and they've all been top draw.

 

 

Put Salah, Mane and Jota in our team, or Neymar, Messi, and Mbappe, or any other front 3 combination, and I still don't think it will work.

For me the issue is not the player up front themselves as individuals, but the overall situation they play in. We know Lukaku can score goals. We know Werner can score goals. We know Ziyech/ Puli / Kai can create etc

But....

It is like a perfect storm here at Chelsea. 

1) teams sit back against us, really cutting out a lot of ability to play in behind, which is the strengths of werner and lukaku (and also the likes of salah, mane, mbappe, haaland etc)

2) This means that we rarely play the early ball forward for our attacking players to run on to. It always seems to be to feet, usually with their back to goal.  Even when the opportunity arises to play the early ball, our midfielders/defenders who are generally in possession usually dilly dather on the ball, by which time the opportunity is gone.

3) This is not unusual in the EPL and Teams also sit back against the likes of liverpool and city - but the intensity of their play, the speed they pass the ball and their ability to move the ball forward without taking 3-5 touches of it, means they get the ball to their front guys earlier. 

4) I would go so far as to say it is not even necessary ability, but mindset. We absolutely have players with the ability to move the ball quickly - but either due to accident or design, they don't seem to do it. 

5) We have seen it far to often here. Managers come in and get results. 2nd/3rd season it is like the players stop doing what it was that got them results in the first place, and instead, go through the motions doing a low rate impression of themselves.

Where is the high intensity pressing? Where is the quick passing? Why have we resorted to the knock it backwards, take 5 touches, knock it sideways, take 5 touches, give it to kova, burst forward 5 yards, knock it backwards, rinse repeat football that we so often see here?

Something is broken. 

29 minutes ago, ducavis said:

Issue is the system is flawed then. You don’t want your defenders getting on the end of things in your opposition box, it’s your forward players. Begs the question; is  it our defenders taking part in shooting drills in training? 
 

Another problem I have picked up on which you can see in the pictures is Liverpool’s delivery tend to come from deep which favours their forward players and runners into the box, while our players try to get  to the byline which tends to favour the opposition.

The system won us the champions league! It isn't flawed. 

It is our current implementation of it that is flawed. 

3 at the back suits our defenders and gives us stability. But where is the passing, intensity, pressing and movement that carved out chance after chance against real madrid last season? 

On 09/02/2022 at 19:59, LongtimerLurker said:

We've gone back and forth between who's at fault for a lack of goals Tuchel, tactics, players, system etc. 

My take on these charts is that we are bizarrely in exactly the same boat as Liverpool when it comes to attacking, and that Trent Alexander-Arnold is a sh*t defender, worse than Alonso, as he is dominated nearer to his own box LOL

11 hours ago, LongtimerLurker said:

I think the only possible outcome to get the attack working is to let Tuchel identify who he wants and bring them in.

Have you read the Lukaku thread on this forum? 

3 hours ago, ducavis said:

Issue is the system is flawed then. You don’t want your defenders getting on the end of things in your opposition box, it’s your forward players. Begs the question; is  it our defenders taking part in shooting drills in training? 
 

Another problem I have picked up on which you can see in the pictures is Liverpool’s delivery tend to come from deep which favours their forward players and runners into the box, while our players try to get  to the byline which tends to favour the opposition.

It is not a flawed system but that is the idea of the system. Right now without chilwell and james it is very difficult. 

Honestly purely from curiousity point of view our 343 has been fun to analyze.  It is very similar to city 433 which tend to morph to 343 offensively but city has raheem sterling + Mahrez as winger whereas we use wb as winger or in our case right now a defensive rb as winger.

 

10 hours ago, axman2526 said:

If true makes it hard to trust his judgement in signing players.

In that case Tuchel is similar to Conte. Came here and won with the same squad that the previous manager lost his job with and then had no idea how to continue from that point on?

I'm inclined to trust Tuchel's judgement in the summer regardless of Lukaku and then if it fails he'll get sacked but I think he earned the right to that much.

5 hours ago, nonotnowjim said:

The system won us the champions league! It isn't flawed. 

It is our current implementation of it that is flawed. 

3 at the back suits our defenders and gives us stability. But where is the passing, intensity, pressing and movement that carved out chance after chance against real madrid last season? 

Yes.. and that same system has won 2 cup trophies this season, and in 2 additional finals already. That says to me it’s a system for cup competitions, not for the league. You can’t approach the league the same way you would play a cup competition, and you can’t compete in 4 competitions over a long season playing this way. There is a reason why Conte who has pioneered the system in modern times hasn’t done well in Europe.

As for the system suiting our defenders, someone pointed out in another thread that none of our defenders actually look bad in that system. Simply put having that spare man in defence makes our defenders better than they actually are. 

2 hours ago, Bob stark said:

It is not a flawed system but that is the idea of the system. Right now without chilwell and james it is very difficult. 

Honestly purely from curiousity point of view our 343 has been fun to analyze.  It is very similar to city 433 which tend to morph to 343 offensively but city has raheem sterling + Mahrez as winger whereas we use wb as winger or in our case right now a defensive rb as winger.

 

It also helps that Pep lines up with 3 or 4 No 10s to open up low block defences. I personally feel we are giving something up by lining up with an extra CB in defence. Move that spare man into the middle of park. Big issue is though we have no player with the ability to open up stubborn defences centrally. 
Personally if we end up with the Super Cup, Community Shield, World Club Cup & another cup it would have been a brilliant season. There is absolutely nothing wrong with being a Cup Manager/Specialist.

45 minutes ago, ducavis said:

Yes.. and that same system has won 2 cup trophies this season, and in 2 additional finals already. That says to me it’s a system for cup competitions, not for the league. You can’t approach the league the same way you would play a cup competition, and you can’t compete in 4 competitions over a long season playing this way. There is a reason why Conte who has pioneered the system in modern times hasn’t done well in Europe.

As for the system suiting our defenders, someone pointed out in another thread that none of our defenders actually look bad in that system. Simply put having that spare man in defence makes our defenders better than they actually are. 

It also helps that Pep lines up with 3 or 4 No 10s to open up low block defences. I personally feel we are giving something up by lining up with an extra CB in defence. Move that spare man into the middle of park. Big issue is though we have no player with the ability to open up stubborn defences centrally. 
Personally if we end up with the Super Cup, Community Shield, World Club Cup & another cup it would have been a brilliant season. There is absolutely nothing wrong with being a Cup Manager/Specialist.

Chilwell - Mount - Lukaku - Havertz - James

Vs

Sterling - Grealish -  Kdb - Silva - Mahrez

 

This is what I am talking about. This is how city want to attack. It is again similar to our attack and similar to pool but it is mahrez on the outside which is a one on one specialist.

Yes we are kinda a cup specialist because we are very good defensively which is everything in cup competition. In knockout competition 0-0 is good but in league it is a terrible result.

Moving the spare man to dm will be very difficult ,most people here will play jorgi there but just compare this

Jorgi 

Rudi - Silva -Azpi 

to

Kova -Jorgi 

Rudi -Silva

You don't have to be genius to see the  difference between the two system

 

 

 

Edited February 11, 20224 yr by Bob stark