1 hour ago, forbzy said:

Unfortunately I am coming to that conclusion too. The likes of Werner, Havertz, and Pulisic were signed for hefty fees based on potential, and signs so far suggest they are not going to fulfill that potential. Likewise at this stage Hudson-Odoi doesn't look like he will become the top quality player that looked possible when he emerged on the scene. 

Well, Lukaku was only bought based on potentially being more crap. 

18 hours ago, Sindre said:

Almost all our attackers have played under two managers now though. They didn't perform under Lampard either at that was with a gung ho type of attacking football.

Begining of last season scoring goals wasn't a problem. Of the 19 games that Lampard oversaw in the league we scored 2 or more goals in 9 of them. Season before that (a team without Werner, Lukaku, Havertz, Ziyech and Hazard), we scored 2 or more goals in 24 of the 38 games. 

Main difference being that we weren't defensively resiliant which is the strength that Tuchel bought to the team when he introduced the wingback system but that defensive stability has ebbed away. We've only kept 5 (3 against Spurs) clean sheets in the 17 games we've played since the start of December. 

Werner's record at Leipzig 161 games, 95 goals and 54 assists - 1 goal involvement every 1.08 games (1.95 for Chelsea)

Ziyech's record at Ajax 165 games, 49 goals and 83 assists - 1 goal involvement every 1.25 games (3.2 for Chelsea)

Lukaku's record at Inter 95 games, 64 goals and 21 assists - 1 goal involvement every 1.12 games (2.5 for Chelsea)

Havertz's record at Leverkusen 150 games, 46 and 31 assists - 1 goal involvement every 1.95 games (2.63 for Chelsea)

Are the players with good goal and assist records for their previous clubs the problem or is Chelsea the problem? 

 

 

Can't help that feel if these stats are accurate, last season we would have been up there for pressing. Since Rom joined our pressing games has become so lacklustre. Not a bash at him just interesting to see we're not even in the top 10.

 

2 hours ago, LongtimerLurker said:

 

Can't help that feel if these stats are accurate, last season we would have been up there for pressing. Since Rom joined our pressing games has become so lacklustre. Not a bash at him just interesting to see we're not even in the top 10.

 

Since Inter are 5th in that table, it would be interesting to know, where they were last year.

5 hours ago, ForeverCarefree said:

Begining of last season scoring goals wasn't a problem. Of the 19 games that Lampard oversaw in the league we scored 2 or more goals in 9 of them. 

Well if it wasn't a problem then it certainly wasn't a problem this season. At round 19 last season we had scored 33 goals in the league. This season 42, so that's just a big advantage Tuchel.

Our attackers have every opportunity to shine in our system. Unfortunately almost all of them are not good enough. Perhaps the main problem was that we bought "stars" from leagues that are far, far below this one in terms of quality. There has been no shortage of players that has looked like world-beaters in Germany and Holland only to fall flat on their faces when they face Premier League competition.

 

4 minutes ago, Sindre said:

Well if it wasn't a problem then it certainly wasn't a problem this season. At round 19 last season we had scored 33 goals in the league. This season 42, so that's just a big advantage Tuchel.

Our attackers have every opportunity to shine in our system. Unfortunately almost all of them are not good enough. Perhaps the main problem was that we bought "stars" from leagues that are far, far below this one in terms of quality. There has been no shortage of players that has looked like world-beaters in Germany and Holland only to fall flat on their faces when they face Premier League competition.

 

A large chunk of those goals were contributed by defenders which is fair if half of the team is made up of defenders, but it just wasn’t sustainable over a long season. Something that you pick up on from watching us, and has been alluded to by the commentary teams is we are so reliant on crosses from wide areas. We need someone in the middle of the park that can pick a pass, and desperately need to address that in the summer even if it means breaking up that midfield

Just now, ducavis said:

A large chunk of those goals were contributed by defenders which is fair if half of the team is made up of defenders, but it just wasn’t sustainable over a long season. Something that you pick up on from watching us, and has been alluded to by the commentary teams is we are so reliant on crosses from wide areas. We need someone in the middle of the park that can pick a pass, and desperately need to address that in the summer even if it means breaking up that midfield

Wingbacks aren't first and foremost defenders in Tuchel's system. Hence why they had a lot of goals and assists for us, because they are quality players and were playing as traditional wingers when we had the ball until they got injured.

They also hold the keys to our offense so of course we've looked a lot tamer recently without them. Robertson and TAA at Liverpool basically plays as wingbacks too when they have the ball. If you replaced them two with Alonso & Azpi on the flanks they would look like crap too, guarantee it.

Despite everything we're on track for 76 PL goals which if done beats 3 of our 5 title winning tallies.

37 minutes ago, Sindre said:

Wingbacks aren't first and foremost defenders in Tuchel's system. Hence why they had a lot of goals and assists for us, because they are quality players and were playing as traditional wingers when we had the ball until they got injured.

They also hold the keys to our offense so of course we've looked a lot tamer recently without them. Robertson and TAA at Liverpool basically plays as wingbacks too when they have the ball. If you replaced them two with Alonso & Azpi on the flanks they would look like crap too, guarantee it.

Issue is Chiwell & James are not Robertson & TAA, not even close if we take off our blue tinted specs. Their numbers were never sustainable over a long season because of the ridiculous distance they are being asked to cover in a 3-5-2, and the wear & tear that comes with it.

Robertson has 38 PL assists in the last 3 1/2 seasons, & TAA PL 42 assists in the same period. To put that into perspective, Hazard had 54 PL assists in 7 seasons. Those are ridiculous numbers even for traditional wingers

2 hours ago, Sindre said:

Wingbacks aren't first and foremost defenders in Tuchel's system. Hence why they had a lot of goals and assists for us, because they are quality players and were playing as traditional wingers when we had the ball until they got injured.

They also hold the keys to our offense so of course we've looked a lot tamer recently without them. Robertson and TAA at Liverpool basically plays as wingbacks too when they have the ball. If you replaced them two with Alonso & Azpi on the flanks they would look like crap too, guarantee it.

I agree! Also don't forget that this was also true for last season. Too lazy to look it up, but didn't we score a lot from corners and had Zouma and Jorginho as joint top scorers in the league at around the half way mark?

20 hours ago, Sindre said:

Well if it wasn't a problem then it certainly wasn't a problem this season. At round 19 last season we had scored 33 goals in the league. This season 42, so that's just a big advantage Tuchel.

Our attackers have every opportunity to shine in our system. Unfortunately almost all of them are not good enough. Perhaps the main problem was that we bought "stars" from leagues that are far, far below this one in terms of quality. There has been no shortage of players that has looked like world-beaters in Germany and Holland only to fall flat on their faces when they face Premier League competition.

 

If it is just werner and havertz then you can say just the player especially after how well all of our attacker perform in lamp first season.

But under Tuchel, you can say pretty much all of our attackers do not look good.There is a reason when we play 343, you can almost throw almost any cb and all of them look good and if you ask me can double pivot consist of jorgi and ruben work, I will think you are crazy but it work just fine.

On 05/02/2022 at 23:41, axman2526 said:

Hey @Dean come on mate cannot only be me you go after for saying stuff like that be fair 😉

Ha been busy watch this space 

20 hours ago, ducavis said:

Issue is Chiwell & James are not Robertson & TAA, not even close if we take off our blue tinted specs. Their numbers were never sustainable over a long season because of the ridiculous distance they are being asked to cover in a 3-5-2, and the wear & tear that comes with it.

Robertson has 38 PL assists in the last 3 1/2 seasons, & TAA PL 42 assists in the same period. To put that into perspective, Hazard had 54 PL assists in 7 seasons. Those are ridiculous numbers even for traditional wingers

Chilwell and James are top players let's not deny that and specially when in top shape, but we simply can't rely on them to carry us throughout the season.

With all those stats of Robertson and TAA that you mention even Liverpool relies on the front 3 to produce the most firepower and if not by end product then by pressing and creating space for the full-backs to have an impact as well. We have somehow created the opposite situation, our attackers made space for the wing-backs instead of carrying the games themselves so this season for the most part we saw attackers being marked out or simply stationary, while the wing-backs were making runs into space and getting the ball in the opposition box.

Edited February 8, 20224 yr by Gol15

On 07/02/2022 at 23:18, ducavis said:

Issue is Chiwell & James are not Robertson & TAA, not even close if we take off our blue tinted specs. Their numbers were never sustainable over a long season because of the ridiculous distance they are being asked to cover in a 3-5-2, and the wear & tear that comes with it.

Robertson has 38 PL assists in the last 3 1/2 seasons, & TAA PL 42 assists in the same period. To put that into perspective, Hazard had 54 PL assists in 7 seasons. Those are ridiculous numbers even for traditional wingers

IMo our two first choice wb are very good however it is difficult to compare them to pool fb because pool play very different football. Our football is much closer to city.

 

 

On 07/02/2022 at 22:14, Sindre said:

Wingbacks aren't first and foremost defenders in Tuchel's system. Hence why they had a lot of goals and assists for us, because they are quality players and were playing as traditional wingers when we had the ball until they got injured.

They also hold the keys to our offense so of course we've looked a lot tamer recently without them. Robertson and TAA at Liverpool basically plays as wingbacks too when they have the ball. If you replaced them two with Alonso & Azpi on the flanks they would look like crap too, guarantee it.

Not sure taa and robertson are wb. One of them usually drop deep during buildup.

Taa usually pick the ball deeper and make crosses from deep rather than from byline. Many consider him more of dpl rather than a fb. Robertson is just your typical aggresive lb who goes up and down all day long.

For me Tuchel should consider 442 or 4231 if he want to "spoil" our fw. Pretty much all of our forward (Havertz,Werner,Lukaku) are more confortable playing with somebody close to them. 

4141 looks good but since we play 2 out n out winger one of the cm (Mount/Kai) not kova need to push up high and play more like a 10 rather than a cm otherwise our st will be too isolated.

On 07/02/2022 at 15:37, Argo said:

Despite everything we're on track for 76 PL goals which if done beats 3 of our 5 title winning tallies.

So I found this:

Part from Ziyech that actually tries to create something our attackers are out of the conversation when it comes to actually solving games.

These stats alone look like we're playing some long-ball football from 20-30 years ago... The problem is that Pulisic is too fragile to play as a wing-back, Lukaku too fat to play as a CB but maybe we can make Havertz into a new Christensen 

12 hours ago, Bob stark said:

For me Tuchel should consider 442 or 4231 if he want to "spoil" our fw. Pretty much all of our forward (Havertz,Werner,Lukaku) are more confortable playing with somebody close to them. 

4141 looks good but since we play 2 out n out winger one of the cm (Mount/Kai) not kova need to push up high and play more like a 10 rather than a cm otherwise our st will be too isolated.

We played 4231 against Plymouth and we needed a RB to actually go AWOL to score. It's not a formation issue

37 minutes ago, Deino said:

We played 4231 against Plymouth and we needed a RB to actually go AWOL to score. It's not a formation issue

I thought it was quite clear we played  4141 and Kovacic was usually the one who was the closest to Lulaku which make no sense because we all know kova is so much better playing deeper.

Edited February 9, 20224 yr by Bob stark

Find myself part way between @dkw and @Sindre on this one.

TT does need to try some different things to get our attack going and and more tactically flexible.

At the same time the players in the main have been useless to him and really need to up their effort and especially their end product.

4 minutes ago, axman2526 said:

Find myself part way between @dkw and @Sindre on this one.

TT does need to try some different things to get our attack going and and more tactically flexible.

At the same time the players in the main have been useless to him and really need to up their effort and especially their end product.

Well, he has. He has tried 4 at the back. He has tried to play with a shadow striker with Lukaku similar to how he played at Inter. He is trying things but people are stuck on formations and more attackers = better attack. That is how Lampard played and look where it got us. You replace a fluid attack with one immobile player and the whole attack is going to suffer. If Lukaku had finished even 1-2 more of the chances we had today, it would have been much easier. 

That said, Lukaku did get a goal and looked like he was trying harder today. He needs to get fit as he is gassed by Min 60. Maybe there is some hope if he even improves by 50%.

14 minutes ago, RomansRoubles said:

Well, he has. He has tried 4 at the back. He has tried to play with a shadow striker with Lukaku similar to how he played at Inter. He is trying things but people are stuck on formations and more attackers = better attack. That is how Lampard played and look where it got us. You replace a fluid attack with one immobile player and the whole attack is going to suffer. If Lukaku had finished even 1-2 more of the chances we had today, it would have been much easier. 

That said, Lukaku did get a goal and looked like he was trying harder today. He needs to get fit as he is gassed by Min 60. Maybe there is some hope if he even improves by 50%.

Even when Lukaku was out injured for a couple of months were getting a large percentage of our goals from defenders and midfield. So while he does seem to hamper our system, it is not the only issue. We are set up not to concede first, and that comes at the expense of attacking effectiveness at times.

Let's just remember that he's taken this team to every cup final available to him so far.

FA-Cup, League-Cup, Champions League, SuperCup and Club World Cup.

Won two out of three so far, with two more yet to play.

Let the man build his squad at least. Right now he's working with someone elses "handiwork" and yet he's doing pretty damn well all things considered.

 

We've gone back and forth between who's at fault for a lack of goals Tuchel, tactics, players, system etc. 

Using possesional territory at home as a baseline we can see that like City and Liverpool we dominate similar areas yet don't come close to proficiency in goal output. Now whilst this chart only provides information on possesion and is only relevant to home games I do think it's quite interesting.

The reason I bring this up is were we to have a clear out in the summer and replace 3 of our forwards (no one specifically just any 3 ideally the 3 who have been the most lacklustre) would we see a lot more goals or would things remain the same?

Begs the question what is an ideal Thomas Tuchel forward, who on the market could come in and do what he wants. It's not as simple as saying kicking the ball into the net. Klopp, Pep and TT require distinct characteristics from all their players so were we to get in a couple more forwards for example do people really think much would change? 

I'm going to say yes and not because I think our players aren't good enough, I just think it's more to do with the fit between manager, system and player. Going by the territory map we do everything right except the forwards scoring consistently, perhaps we just don't have the right archetype of forwards for Tuchel. Sounds simple but getting the right profile in may prove difficult considering how our board do business.

Seems simple to me like Klopp and Pep, let TT have his first choice players and try and build a dynasty with our academy.

 

Edited February 9, 20224 yr by LongtimerLurker

2 hours ago, LongtimerLurker said:

We've gone back and forth between who's at fault for a lack of goals Tuchel, tactics, players, system etc. 

Using possesional territory at home as a baseline we can see that like City and Liverpool we dominate similar areas yet don't come close to proficiency in goal output. Now whilst this chart only provides information on possesion and is only relevant to home games I do think it's quite interesting.

The reason I bring this up is were we to have a clear out in the summer and replace 3 of our forwards (no one specifically just any 3 ideally the 3 who have been the most lacklustre) would we see a lot more goals or would things remain the same?

Begs the question what is an ideal Thomas Tuchel forward, who on the market could come in and do what he wants. It's not as simple as saying kicking the ball into the net. Klopp, Pep and TT require distinct characteristics from all their players so were we to get in a couple more forwards for example do people really think much would change? 

I'm going to say yes and not because I think our players aren't good enough, I just think it's more to do with the fit between manager, system and player. Going by the territory map we do everything right except the forwards scoring consistently, perhaps we just don't have the right archetype of forwards for Tuchel. Sounds simple but getting the right profile in may prove difficult considering how our board do business.

Seems simple to me like Klopp and Pep, let TT have his first choice players and try and build a dynasty with our academy.

 

First step make Broja one of his key forwards.