10 minutes ago, Drogba1 said:

Our entire attack? Would he start up front for Liverpool, City or even Tottenham? 

Yes.

Mount is a very good player and he's improved under tuchel's management.

For my money tuchel is the best asset we've got. Not perfect, sure, but there isn't such a thing. 

Two trophies including the champions league, a further two cup finals, and two top four finishes in his season and a half. 

Football style is subjective, but I like his approach personally.

Where we are now vs the shambles we were under Lamps are poles apart.

1 hour ago, timetowaste said:

I'll throw my 2p in. There's a section of fans on here that are more willing to blame Tuchel for our inability to score goals and one of the main reasons is because they're doing what they can to deflect from what is, in my opinion, the main issue, which is the attackers themselves. A lot of people aren't ready to accept that Mason Mount and Kai Havertz are not good enough to be 2 out of the 3 attackers that start.
 

I know I'll get the same spiel about Mount being player of the year etc but he's player of the year for a team that isn't good enough to challenge for the league, if we could replace Mount with another Raheem Sterling and Havertz with a good goalscorer we wouldn't have these issues. I know a lot of people won't admit it but Mount holds us back in this formation, I wouldn't sell him because he's a decent player but will we challenge while he's one of our main men? I'm not sure.

Is that Mason Mount one of only three players in the league last year to get double figure goals and assists? 

Edited August 8, 20223 yr by charierre

53 minutes ago, Argo said:

Well he's evidently very happy with him so for all intents and purposes he is someone he picked.

If he wasn't the sack rumours would have started almost immediately after the takeover ala Ranieri and Bruce.

So far aye, will see if that support maintains if we don't deliver our targets this season.

1 hour ago, dkw said:

Yes.

With this sort of delusion it's impossible to discuss it 

51 minutes ago, charierre said:

Is that Mason Mount one of only three players in the league last year to get double figure goals and assists? 

21 total, 15 of those against teams in the bottom 6

2 minutes ago, timetowaste said:

21 total, 15 of those against teams in the bottom 6

Do we get less points by beating teams in the bottom 6?

2 minutes ago, Amputechture said:

Do we get less points by beating teams in the bottom 6?

But if you're happy with your star player only turning up against the worst teams on the league that's fine but if we're going to challenge then we need somebody who consistently turns up in tough games, something Mount doesn't do 

1 minute ago, timetowaste said:

But if you're happy with your star player only turning up against the worst teams on the league that's fine but if we're going to challenge then we need somebody who consistently turns up in tough games, something Mount doesn't do 

Just because a player doesn't score or assist doesn't mean they haven't turned up. Apart from his penalties he is one of if not our best player, and looking at solely goals and assists and cherry-picking the ones you deem important makes it seem like you're trying a bit too hard to discount his development at Chelsea so far.

12 minutes ago, timetowaste said:

21 total, 15 of those against teams in the bottom 6

Do goals count less against different opponents? He is still third in the list last season. Just maybe if we moved the ball faster in midfield ,be it a player or a coaching issue, our attackers may do better.

7 hours ago, forbzy said:

Agreed. I can only assume a lot of the negativity around Jorginho relates to the fact that he has been part of the midfield since the days of Sarriball and is therefore blamed for the tedious style of play. But it is the coaching and the manager that decides on how we play, and not one player.

The negativity around Jorginho stems from the fact that Kante is our sacred Cow and can't be blamed for any of his obvious flaws so if the midfield isn't creative or is tedious in possession Jorginho must take full responsibility.

2 minutes ago, Amputechture said:

Just because a player doesn't score or assist doesn't mean they haven't turned up. Apart from his penalties he is one of if not our best player, and looking at solely goals and assists and cherry-picking the ones you deem important makes it seem like you're trying a bit too hard to discount his development at Chelsea so far.

I didn't mention his goals and assists in my initial post because they can be deceiving but you brought them up. Personally I don't think he's developed as much as I thought/hoped he would. I don't think it's unreasonable to want one of our star players to be a consistent performer against better opposition and he doesn't do that, last season there were so many times he went missing or looked lost just as he did on Saturday. If, as you say, he's our best player, that show how low the bar is and how far off we are from competing with Liverpool and City

Just now, timetowaste said:

 If, as you say, he's our best player, that show how low the bar is and how far off we are from competing with Liverpool and City

I don't think we're far off at all. We weren't even that far off last season until the injury crisis.

He's been gradually getting better and better for us since he was introduced to the first team. Unless his progression comes to a halt then I have no reason to believe he won't get even better this season.

 

1 minute ago, Amputechture said:

I don't think we're far off at all. We weren't even that far off last season until the injury crisis.

He's been gradually getting better and better for us since he was introduced to the first team. Unless his progression comes to a halt then I have no reason to believe he won't get even better this season.

 

Ok that's fine if that's your opinion, I just havent seen him getting better and better. I don't think we're too far off either but unfortunately in my opinion Mount is somebody that would need to drop out of the team and replaced for us to bridge that gap.

1 hour ago, Deino said:

Because we never improved on Jorginho. The lucky thing with Jorginho is the club always had areas lacking in players that diverted the attention away from our midfield. Under Frank we were in a transfer ban then we needed attackers, last year we signed the most expensive striker ever and left the midfield alone again, then another transfer window frozen due to war. Now that we can operate in a transfer window, all our defenders left. 

We desperately need a playmaking midfielder. A Scholes/Xavi/Fabregas-type player to make use of our movement upfront and a way to use our wingbacks without 3 passes to them. Even Eriksen would have massively upgraded us

Jorginho has been doing his role since season 1, day 1. Exactly the player we bought before and after signing for us, Sarri could have chosen anyone but he chose him and we completely changed the way we played which without Jorginho wouldn’t be possible for Sarri and we wouldn’t end up playing CL football for 2 seasons in a row.

Lampard turned to Jorginho in his first season, the 4-2-3-1 formation with him and Kovacic was working, only after not using Jorginho, Lampard lost the plot and lost his job. 

Tuchel at the first match turned to Jorginho too, in total all 3 of our managers that had Jorginho turned to him by default.

There is no luck involved here, the only midfielder that has made us a stable team is Jorginho, end of story there is no luck in this level and specially not in our club, others that were not good enough were gone pretty quick.

This sentiment of blaming Jorginho when he has done his role for multiple seasons and under multiple managers is simply sad to see. Last season our defenders scored more than our attackers, how is it that when our defender makes a run that somehow he gets the ball or the cross but that our forward doesn’t.

All this talk about how we need another Xavi or Fabregas is really not realistic I mean look how many goals Liverpools frontline scored last season and yet their own midfielders have the same number of assists in comparison to our own midfielders, the teams above us don’t have a Xavi or a Fabregas at all, no such players exists there.

We didn’t have Xavi nor Fabregas when Hazard had arguably his best season, under Sarri, how about that? Suddenly when an attacker is actually good and used in the best way, wow your attack works!

35 minutes ago, Amputechture said:

Do we get less points by beating teams in the bottom 6?

Good question. Let's ask someone unbiased. @Munkworth should we recieve extra points when we beat the scummers?

11 minutes ago, axman2526 said:

Good question. Let's ask someone unbiased. @Munkworth should we recieve extra points when we beat the scummers?

37 minutes ago, Munkworth said:

1 minute ago, axman2526 said:

2 hours ago, Amputechture said:

Do we get less points by beating teams in the bottom 6?

And if 15 against bottom and he's in top 3 then that makes him better than approx 400 other prem players....grass isn't always greener

 

2 hours ago, timetowaste said:

I didn't mention his goals and assists in my initial post because they can be deceiving but you brought them up. Personally I don't think he's developed as much as I thought/hoped he would. I don't think it's unreasonable to want one of our star players to be a consistent performer against better opposition and he doesn't do that, last season there were so many times he went missing or looked lost just as he did on Saturday. If, as you say, he's our best player, that show how low the bar is and how far off we are from competing with Liverpool and City

He's 23 and is improving year on year....what more do you want?

 

1 hour ago, Munkworth said:

27 minutes ago, Trueblue76 said:

He's 23 and is improving year on year....what more do you want?

 

But he isn't improving, last season he was no different to the player he was in his first season at Chelsea, I've seen very little improvement and that's the frustrating thing. He's been given a massive pass because he's a youth player, if this was a foreign player we bought at 21 and he was like he was playing like Mount does 2 years later a lot of people would want him replaced .

5 hours ago, Gol15 said:

Jorginho has been doing his role since season 1, day 1. Exactly the player we bought before and after signing for us, Sarri could have chosen anyone but he chose him and we completely changed the way we played which without Jorginho wouldn’t be possible for Sarri and we wouldn’t end up playing CL football for 2 seasons in a row.

Lampard turned to Jorginho in his first season, the 4-2-3-1 formation with him and Kovacic was working, only after not using Jorginho, Lampard lost the plot and lost his job. 

Tuchel at the first match turned to Jorginho too, in total all 3 of our managers that had Jorginho turned to him by default.

There is no luck involved here, the only midfielder that has made us a stable team is Jorginho, end of story there is no luck in this level and specially not in our club, others that were not good enough were gone pretty quick.

This sentiment of blaming Jorginho when he has done his role for multiple seasons and under multiple managers is simply sad to see. Last season our defenders scored more than our attackers, how is it that when our defender makes a run that somehow he gets the ball or the cross but that our forward doesn’t.

All this talk about how we need another Xavi or Fabregas is really not realistic I mean look how many goals Liverpools frontline scored last season and yet their own midfielders have the same number of assists in comparison to our own midfielders, the teams above us don’t have a Xavi or a Fabregas at all, no such players exists there.

We didn’t have Xavi nor Fabregas when Hazard had arguably his best season, under Sarri, how about that? Suddenly when an attacker is actually good and used in the best way, wow your attack works!

You always go on about this the moment Jorginho is mentioned. I never said Jorginho is bad or he doesn't work. Jorginho works for the way we want to play but the midfield has been stagnant for a good 4 years. 

Jorginho is good but he's our only playmaker. You can't expect him to perform at his absolute best for 60 games a year. He'll be average in about 20 games and play out of his skin for 15~20ish games, we need another playmaker to carry his burden. 

Fabregas in his latter years were used by Conte as a gamechanging sub so his minutes and fitness were managed well. Same with Xavi and he had Iniesta to carry the playmaking burden with but we want Jorginho to play his absolute best for 60 games a season which is just not feasible.

The fact that you feel this is an attack on Jorginho is ridiculous. 

This clip illustrates why we are so stagnant in attack. Sterling makes the run, the ball isn’t delivered. Preference is for the low risk side pass. How long will it be before Sterling gets frustrated and stops making the runs?