3 minutes ago, CFCCAN said:

As I said, he came in and plugged the leaky defence, and he should be applauded but that would be the first thing Sam Alladyce and others would have done.  But TT threw the entire defensive blanket over the entire team.  While we are all frustrated with the forwards, none of them are totally sh*te players if they were, we wouldn't have bought them in the first place. Pulisic, Ziyech, Werner, Havertz and even Lukaku don't turn to sh*t overnight, they only play poorly if they get played out of position or they are not played to their strengths.  TT IMO had not set up the team to play with attacking wingers that will actually take on a defender, or any midfielder that sole job is to support the attack and make those killer passes.  When is the last time you saw any of our wide players take on a defender and leave them on their arse; certainly not CHO, Ziyech, Werner or even Pulisic; hopefully Sterling will be able to do that although there is talk that Sterling to play down the middle...why when his strength is taking on players out wide... TT's problem is he is frightened of the team losing the ball; he doesn't like anything than a high% pass which if you play thinking that all game you won't take risks and when you don't take risks you will remain status quo..which is what we are seeing. 

Completely different to what Big Sam would have done. The idea that he came in and put us in a low block just isn't true.

I remember Carragher did some analysis of our game at the Ethiad that year and we were constantly defending (very well) aggressively and we're going toe to toe with City. If we look on Saturday we were playing so high one ball over the top got Gray on a 1 v 1 with Silva. 

There's a difference between being defensive and defending well.

Its the same issues we see time and time again against low blocks. We move the ball too slow and hardly ever penetrate through the channels. 

20 minutes ago, Sconnie Blue said:

Its the same issues we see time and time again against low blocks. We move the ball too slow and hardly ever penetrate through the channels. 

We (usually) don't when we play the Jorgi/Kova/Mount trio but not many are ready for that conversation.

33 minutes ago, CFCCAN said:

As I said, he came in and plugged the leaky defence, and he should be applauded but that would be the first thing Sam Alladyce and others would have done.  But TT threw the entire defensive blanket over the entire team.  While we are all frustrated with the forwards, none of them are totally sh*te players if they were, we wouldn't have bought them in the first place. Pulisic, Ziyech, Werner, Havertz and even Lukaku don't turn to sh*t overnight, they only play poorly if they get played out of position or they are not played to their strengths.  

You say Tuchel threw a defensive blanket over the team but we are no worse offensively than under Lampard.   If we'd improved defensively and regressed offensively I'd understand the point but we haven't.

Lampard actually did far worse when he had new signings, I remember us struggling to create a chance against pretty much any top half team in Lampards 2nd season which is why he got sacked.

The football is a bit less entertaining at times but games that are entertaining because the opposition team cut us open regularly are games I'm happy to be less entertaining.

I'd disagree on the assessment of our forwards as being let down by Tuchel.  You're right they haven't turned sh*t overnight though.

Pulisic has always been sh*te.  Got bought solely because of his nationality and comerical reasons but has just had the best 2 full seasons of his career under Tuchel (aside from the post lockdown purple patch)  Tuchel has improved an untalented player but he isn't good enough.

Ziyech and Werner are both deeply deeply flawed players who haven't been able to step up to premier league level despite showing promise in weaker leagues.

Lukaku's technical flaws have been apparent for a decade and were glaring the last time he was at a premier league club of our calibre when he flopped at United. It's not like he became a worse player he's just not suited to football at the highest level.

These are not top players.  None of them would ever start for a single team that has won major trophies in England they're just not good enough.

If Mount starts regressing or top quality proven players like Sterling start struggling under Tuchel then by all means question him but it's clearly a personnel issue holding us back going forward.

I think Pulisic is the player that encapsulates it the most, he's been a crappy 4 goal a season bench warmer his entire 7 year career in 2 different leagues and multiple different managers.

In that time Tuchel has had Mainz, Dortmund (With Puli on the bench) and PSG playing excellent attacking football with some quality players playing the best football of their careers.

Now that they're both at Chelsea if it isn't clicking for us going forward I think it's a very illogical position to point the finger at the one with a record of success.

39 minutes ago, Argo said:

Completely different to what Big Sam would have done. The idea that he came in and put us in a low block just isn't true.

I remember Carragher did some analysis of our game at the Ethiad that year and we were constantly defending (very well) aggressively and we're going toe to toe with City. If we look on Saturday we were playing so high one ball over the top got Gray on a 1 v 1 with Silva. 

There's a difference between being defensive and defending well.

Here's the video:

One can agree and disagree about a lot of things but as far as i'm concerned you are just outing yourself as clueless if you think Tuchel is a defensive coach. He's anything but.

He usually adapts very well to the squad he finds himself appointed to - make out of that what you want. His sides at Mainz, Dortmund and most part of his PSG tenure was know for their highly  attractive attacking football. Fun fact, once he was rather forced to a more pragmatic and defensive approach he made two CL finals in a row.

Our defense didn't improve because we parked the bus, it's a mix of playing both 3 CBs and a possession based style. It essentially takes the defensive aspects of Sarri's system (protecting the defense with possession) and Conte's system (having 5 defenders) and combines them together. Considering we had one of the worst defenses in the top 10 under Lampard it's a massive improvement, considering we aren't any worse offensively. If we had a front 3 close to City/Liverpool/Tottenham we'd easily be title challengers, unfortunately Sterling aside none of our attackers are on that level (maybe Mount in a few years time).

Well I'm glad to read that we all see things differently or this would be a boring place, but happy to spark a debate and a bit of controversy ..🤔

37 minutes ago, Sindre said:

Here's the video:

One can agree and disagree about a lot of things but as far as i'm concerned you are just outing yourself as clueless if you think Tuchel is a defensive coach. He's anything but.

Great analysis by Carrra. Don't like the man but he knows what he is talking about.

I like TT and with him in charge I am confident that we will always be competitive if not pretty on the eye.  Real Madrid away last year, we almost pulled it off, under Frank we would have been smashed.

My issue, and I do think this is about not taking risks on the orders of TT, is when the wing back doesn't put a quick ball in.  Cucu did it once on Saturday and Sterling almost scored but the amount of time James stopped and passed back drives me mad.  I hate to say it, but on the evidence of TT at Chelsea I would think twice about signing if I was a striker.  Drogba would have been up in arms in the current set up with no quick ball.

I also mentioned under the Gallagher thread, that if TT managed the Mourinho squad, first time around, he wouldn't play Frank.  He'd have Makalele and Essien.  Frank would have had to make do with playing out of position, in a wide position, or not playing at all (although as another poster mentioned, I would like to think that TT sets the team up based on the squad he has and would have played 4/3/3).

5 hours ago, Deino said:

You don't even get the point of my argument. Our midfield has been the same since 2018. The same pattern always happens, Jorginho plays well = team plays well, Jorginho plays poorly = the whole team suffers. 

Let me simplify it even more, Jorginho is key to how we play. I am not blaming him on our forwards not scoring, that's another argument. 

What I'm saying is we need another playmaker *who is able to replace* Jorginho. He is turning 31 and is about to enter the last year of his 5-year contract. 4+ years he's been with us and he's still our only playmaker

You essentially want us to play Jorginho continuously for 60+ games. That's crazy. Last season Jorginho had to play with a minor injury, we continue playing him like that and we're fecked. If Jorginho gets a long term injury, we don't have anyone that can dictate the tempo. 

Jorginho is not the same as Bissouma or Rice so of course they won't impact the team like Jorginho does. Eriksen playing No. 6 is far closer to Jorginho than either of those two. 

I want Jorginho to continue playing for us and to do that means we need someone who can bring what Jorginho brings to the table and hopefully add extra. Your argument pretty much points this out. 

None of our current midfielders can do what Jorginho does, question is do we want to run Jorginho into the ground again? 

We do need a new player there, fully agree. Jorginho can barely manage 40 matches in a season anyway so no I don't really want him to play 60 matches at all even if it was physically possible for him.

My personal pick would be Sandro Tonali, though just like Juventus would never sell Locatelli, AC Milan is never going to agree on the sale of Tonali either. So go all in for De Jong, if it's true that he wouldn't want to be a part of Man United then it's really a no-brainer, we won't find a better player for the money we can spend anyway.

2 hours ago, HazardousChoice said:

You say Tuchel threw a defensive blanket over the team but we are no worse offensively than under Lampard.   If we'd improved defensively and regressed offensively I'd understand the point but we haven't.

Lampard actually did far worse when he had new signings, I remember us struggling to create a chance against pretty much any top half team in Lampards 2nd season which is why he got sacked.

It was actually the restart things started to nosedive. I thought we were bang average in every game bar the second half at Anfield and were getting by because Pulisic briefly turned into Hazard.

The attacking performances never recovered after that really. The Mendy/Silva novelty and Ziyech's delievery gave us results beyond what the overall performances warranted at the start of the following season but it was always unsustainable unless Frank thought of something which he unfortunately didn't.

It's a shame because despite so so results I really enjoyed what I was seeing pre lockdown and I felt Frank was showing flashes of potential to be a really top coach but unfortunetly it wasn't to be, atleast not yet.

7 hours ago, Argo said:

 I'm not totally sure of our exact record when Jorgi, Kova and Mount start together but i'll be amazed if we were below a 70% win record and a 2 goal a game average ( @Sexyfootballany chance you have that data?) and honestly wouldn't be shocked if it was pushing 75% and 3 goals.

Checking my ever-growing Chelsea excel file ...

Last Season (Tuchel):

Season before that (Tuchel/Lampard)

2019/20 (Lampard)

 

Basically Jorginho/Kovacic/Mount works extremely well under Tuchel's tactics (played 22 won 19 drawn 2 lost 1 goals 45 conceded 7 , but was a bit hit and miss under Lamps .... (played 17 won 8 drawn 3 lost 6 goals 32 conceded 27).

Overall @Argo a point well made, if not exactly great news for the Tuchel hating Lampard fans 🙂 

 

6 minutes ago, Sexyfootball said:

Checking my ever-growing Chelsea excel file ...

Last Season (Tuchel):

Season before that (Tuchel/Lampard)

2019/20 (Lampard)

 

Basically Jorginho/Kovacic/Mount works extremely well under Tuchel's tactics (played 22 won 19 drawn 2 lost 1 goals 45 conceded 7 , but was a bit hit and miss under Lamps .... (played 17 won 8 drawn 3 lost 6 goals 32 conceded 27).

Overall @Argo a point well made, if not exactly great news for the Tuchel hating Lampard fans 🙂 

 

Admittedly I thought it looked better under Lampard (although I think those Liverpool games in 19/20 were very good performances despite losing) but the Tuchel stats are insane.

Absolutely mad we are not seeing that combo more often, especially against the jumbo jet parkers. I know that crazy record would unlikely be sustained week in week out but I bet we'd find those game a lot let boring in the main.

9 minutes ago, Argo said:

Admittedly I thought it looked better under Lampard (although I think those Liverpool games in 19/20 were very good performances despite losing) but the Tuchel stats are insane.

Absolutely mad we are not seeing that combo more often, especially against the jumbo jet parkers. I know that crazy record would unlikely be sustained week in week out but I bet we'd find those game a lot let boring in the main.

When you have a player like Kante is hard to drop him.

24 minutes ago, axman2526 said:

When you have a player like Kante is hard to drop him.

Prime Kante sure but not this version. It's not a coincidence his best form since Conte was when he was having his minutes adequately managed.

Tuchel will happily listen to offers for Ziyech and does not trust Christian Pulisic, he is prepared to start again with his Chelsea attack and rip the current attack up. (@JacobSteinberg) #CFC

Thomas Tuchel on #Chelsea:

"I  think we are still in transition - new ownership, Petr Cech out - who I think was key for me in the building. 
In Cobham, speaking to me and the staff, a huge support to me."

"He's not here so there are changes. We are positive but a bit in transition. We are excited but it comes pretty early."

[via @SoccerAM / YouTube]

Still strange why they let Cech go if Tuchel was a fan. 

“Being a forward in this side does not always look like much fun. At times it looks as if Chelsea are reliant on set pieces or one of their front 3 conjuring something special out of nothing & the spotlight on Tuchel will grow harsher if the goals do not start to flow” (Guardian)

2 minutes ago, JM7 said:

Tuchel will happily listen to offers for Ziyech and does not trust Christian Pulisic, he is prepared to start again with his Chelsea attack and rip the current attack up. (@JacobSteinberg) #CFC

Tuchel would listen to offers for Pulisic too if there were actually any to listen to.

It’s all very well selling all the underperforming forwards but can’t imagine there are many proper replacements on the market 

21 minutes ago, JM7 said:

“Being a forward in this side does not always look like much fun. At times it looks as if Chelsea are reliant on set pieces or one of their front 3 conjuring something special out of nothing & the spotlight on Tuchel will grow harsher if the goals do not start to flow” (Guardian)

Makes sense. Todd will demand a return for his investment and a certain style to make the best of his assets. All very well making the bridge a huge entertainment center but if the product itself is dull it will fall flat.

24 minutes ago, JM7 said:

Thomas Tuchel on #Chelsea:

"I  think we are still in transition - new ownership, Petr Cech out - who I think was key for me in the building. 
In Cobham, speaking to me and the staff, a huge support to me."

"He's not here so there are changes. We are positive but a bit in transition. We are excited but it comes pretty early."

[via @SoccerAM / YouTube]

Still strange why they let Cech go if Tuchel was a fan. 

Makes sense but is also a case of making excuses already as well.

What I really don’t get is that he’s happy to see Timo Werner go and willing to listen to offers for several attackers and not even look at the midfield?

I think it’s a little obvious we are desperate for a midfielder who can see forward passes. I thought we found it in Billy Gilmour but sadly it hasn’t worked out for him. 

I’m genuinely gutted about Werner going, I still think he is one of the best strikers in Europe. You play to his strengths and he will deliver. Okay, maybe he’ll miss here and there but his pace is electric and his movement is top notch. He gets a lot of offside goals but that imo is because we always were too late to spot him. Instead we have Kai Havertz who in my opinion, have been just as bad as Werner if not worse.

Honestly would have preferred to sell Havertz than Werner. I really don’t see the generational talent in him, what a load of bollocks.

57 minutes ago, dansubrosa said:

What I really don’t get is that he’s happy to see Timo Werner go and willing to listen to offers for several attackers and not even look at the midfield?

I think it’s a little obvious we are desperate for a midfielder who can see forward passes. I thought we found it in Billy Gilmour but sadly it hasn’t worked out for him. 

I’m genuinely gutted about Werner going, I still think he is one of the best strikers in Europe. You play to his strengths and he will deliver. Okay, maybe he’ll miss here and there but his pace is electric and his movement is top notch. He gets a lot of offside goals but that imo is because we always were too late to spot him. Instead we have Kai Havertz who in my opinion, have been just as bad as Werner if not worse.

Honestly would have preferred to sell Havertz than Werner. I really don’t see the generational talent in him, what a load of bollocks.

I think with Werner it was his wages more than anything. If he was on 100-200k a week I doubt we would have sold him. Truth his he was arguably our most dangerous attacker in 2020-21, without him I highly doubt we win CL. Even the games he didn't score his runs would drag defenders away, not to mention the penalties he won.