1 hour ago, Deino said:

Our real issue is our midfield don't create enough. That through ball to Haaland is the thing we're missing. 

Yesterday, Sterling and to a lesser extent Havertz made runs that went undetected or couldn't get a properly delivered ball. A potent goalscorer is great but he's nothing if the service is sh*te

But we've been saying this for over a year and no changes happen to the style of play or coaching.

6 hours ago, Luca Vialli said:

But we've been saying this for over a year and no changes happen to the style of play or coaching.

Because our coach and our fan base think Jorginho is God's gift to football.

50 minutes ago, SydneyChelsea said:

Because our coach and our fan base think Jorginho is God's gift to football.

not to mention the need to play a back 3 to protect him and relying on wingbacks for creativity.

4 hours ago, Jangz said:

not to mention the need to play a back 3 to protect him and relying on wingbacks for creativity.

I reckon we play a back 3 also to protect Mendy. Not sure I would want him to much more involved in our passing game.

4 hours ago, Jangz said:

not to mention the need to play a back 3 to protect him and relying on wingbacks for creativity.

Not really. We depend on whoever is paired up with our defensive midfielder + the wingbacks + the two 10s for creativity.

The problem is that they are all pretty workmanlike and lack in creativity. This insistance on blaming our defensive midfielder whoever it is for our lack of creativity is baffling. What happens if we replace Jorginho with Rice next summer? Are we going to whine that he's not the creative heart of our team as well?

Rodri isn't creative for City, Fabinho isn't for Liverpool, Casemiro isn't for Real Madrid, Busquets isn't etc etc.

We should expect more from the likes of Mount, Havertz, Kovacic and Kante in terms of creativity. Mount for example gets away with contributing with an open play assist every 10-11 games or so. Or 8 assists in over 100 games as our main star (until Sterling) in attacking areas and that is simply far from good enough. 

 

5 hours ago, Jangz said:

not to mention the need to play a back 3 to protect him and relying on wingbacks for creativity.

I think we play the back 3 to also protect thiago silva.

First indications of Tuchel crossing with people is with Timo Werner. Simon Johnson reported the two had and argument over how Timo should be utilized as a player. The result: Timo is leaving. This has happened almost every time in a club with Tuchel. He is so demanding and you can see why he is with (Chelsea) attackers. He believes the chances we create for them should result in more goals as it hasn't happened he is putting all the blame to the strikers. Lukaku has also already left...Now, I am not attacking Tuchel here as he probably is right, I am just wondering wheter he is feeling the pressure and starting to get very short with people. He still needs to be demanding but I also think he should look into a mirror and realize he should probably behave better and look for tactical solutions rather than "motivating players" by shouting at them. You can be intelligent in that as well. 

I think Man City are boring to watch. Watched some yesterday and it was pretty tedious. West ham actually had good chances early on and in the first half.

Without Haaland City didn't look like winning that game at all. People hype up City and Pep way too much. City are the best in the league because the chasing pack have been poor. 

Edited August 8, 20223 yr by enigma

1 hour ago, evissy said:

First indications of Tuchel crossing with people is with Timo Werner. Simon Johnson reported the two had and argument over how Timo should be utilized as a player. The result: Timo is leaving. This has happened almost every time in a club with Tuchel. He is so demanding and you can see why he is with (Chelsea) attackers. He believes the chances we create for them should result in more goals as it hasn't happened he is putting all the blame to the strikers. Lukaku has also already left...Now, I am not attacking Tuchel here as he probably is right, I am just wondering wheter he is feeling the pressure and starting to get very short with people. He still needs to be demanding but I also think he should look into a mirror and realize he should probably behave better and look for tactical solutions rather than "motivating players" by shouting at them. You can be intelligent in that as well. 

I agree with that, our forwards have missed many sure thing goals, and recently Timo has probably been the biggest culprit. But this problem goes back quite a long time with our strikers.

34 minutes ago, enigma said:

I think Man City are boring to watch. Watched some yesterday and it was pretty tedious. West ham actually had good chances early on and in the first half.

Without Haaland City didn't look like winning that game at all. People hype up City and Pep way too much. City are the best in the league because the chasing pack have been poor. 

I watched the game as well I can't find the actual figures but i think City had  80% possession and something like 500 completed passes. Tedious to watch at times but you just knew they can turn it on. Wow that Haaland is explosive, golden boot all day long.

48 minutes ago, enigma said:

I think Man City are boring to watch. Watched some yesterday and it was pretty tedious. West ham actually had good chances early on and in the first half.

Without Haaland City didn't look like winning that game at all. People hype up City and Pep way too much. City are the best in the league because the chasing pack have been poor. 

Possession based football is the most boring way to play football. If you combine it with an opponent like WHU, this is what you get. Pep gets all the praise he deserves naturally because he is winning. The style of play for me is the opposite of creative, it is systematic and despotic (from the managers side). Basically it has the least amount of freedom for players to express themselves. It creates an illusion of freedom/freeflow. This is what Tuchel is also doing with us. I also think Pep has evolved his style to fit more in the Prem, it is not all defending with the ball but much more reacting to a situations individually and going for long balls for example. 

8 hours ago, SydneyChelsea said:

Because our coach and our fan base think Jorginho is God's gift to football.

Can't speak for anyone else but for me that's not the case atall. If I was offered at the end of this month FDJ here and him at Juve I'll happily take it (although in an ideal world I'd like to have both this season for squad depth purposes given FDJ can as an emergency play CB and Jorgi is one of the few if not only regulars in our squad not going to the mid season world cup).

What I do contest is him being blamed almost for breathing. He was the only regular in both European winning teams (both of whom broke defensive records despite him supposedly being a liability in that regard) last year but apparently was a lucky chancer in both, I even had to bat off an argument that he gets exposed against Spurs despite the fact he's won 9 out of 12 against them.

I've never known someone who's delievered for this club to be so resented, even players who were genuinely sh*t for us most of the time like Bosingwa and Torres got some leeway thanks to Munich.

Edited August 8, 20223 yr by Argo

1 hour ago, Argo said:

Can't speak for anyone else but for me that's not the case atall. If I was offered at the end of this month FDJ here and him at Juve I'll happily take it (although in an ideal world I'd like to have both this season for squad depth purposes given FDJ can as an emergency play CB and Jorgi is one of the few if not only regulars in our squad not going to the mid season world cup).

What I do contest is him being blamed almost for breathing. He was the only regular in both European winning teams (both of whom broke defensive records despite him supposedly being a liability in that regard) last year but apparently was a lucky chancer in both, I even had to bat off an argument that he gets exposed against Spurs despite the fact he's won 9 out of 12 against them.

I've never known someone who's delievered for this club to be so resented, even players who were genuinely sh*t for us most of the time like Bosingwa and Torres got some leeway thanks to Munich.

Agreed. I can only assume a lot of the negativity around Jorginho relates to the fact that he has been part of the midfield since the days of Sarriball and is therefore blamed for the tedious style of play. But it is the coaching and the manager that decides on how we play, and not one player.

5 minutes ago, forbzy said:

Agreed. I can only assume a lot of the negativity around Jorginho relates to the fact that he has been part of the midfield since the days of Sarriball and is therefore blamed for the tedious style of play. But it is the coaching and the manager that decides on how we play, and not one player.

I think it's a mix of that, taking Kante away from his "best position" (sitting DM is nowhere near his best position but for some reason so many think it), being arguably the main benefactor from Lampard being sacked and his type of player not being wholly appreciated in English football in general (Thiago at Liverpool doesn't get the credit he deserves either and FDJ will have the same issue especially if his arrival ends the Declan Rice interest) has lead to a perfect storm.

Don't get me wrong there is legit criticism's of Jorginho but the way he's talked about like he's not even a top flight player and blamed for everything is ridiculous.

No Werner has gone I really hope there is a plan for a centre forward 

I have my doubts TT is the man we should be backing for the long term. I think Todd will want a more long term manager approach than Roman did, but I cannot help being reminded of the popular Claudio being given a lot of expensive players, falling short and being removed so Roman could get his own man in. TT is a nice, honest guy like Claudio, am just not sure he will become like Pep or Klopp and that is what we need to be at the top again consistently.

1 hour ago, Andy2461 said:

No Werner has gone I really hope there is a plan for a centre forward 

On the one hand it is good to get rid of strikers who are wasting too many chances.
But on the other hand you need a better forward to replace him like Haaland.
And I cannot see someone of his class on the market right now.

Maybe we should try it with Evanilson from Porto. But this would be a very risky bet on a talented player. Not sure if this is too risky at the moment. And in the end we pay 60 mio euro and then this new striker falls through in the premier league.
It should be IMHO a proven player like Lewandowski who can guarantee goals.

Edited August 8, 20223 yr by TheGermanOne

I'll throw my 2p in. There's a section of fans on here that are more willing to blame Tuchel for our inability to score goals and one of the main reasons is because they're doing what they can to deflect from what is, in my opinion, the main issue, which is the attackers themselves. A lot of people aren't ready to accept that Mason Mount and Kai Havertz are not good enough to be 2 out of the 3 attackers that start.
 

I know I'll get the same spiel about Mount being player of the year etc but he's player of the year for a team that isn't good enough to challenge for the league, if we could replace Mount with another Raheem Sterling and Havertz with a good goalscorer we wouldn't have these issues. I know a lot of people won't admit it but Mount holds us back in this formation, I wouldn't sell him because he's a decent player but will we challenge while he's one of our main men? I'm not sure.

46 minutes ago, axman2526 said:

I have my doubts TT is the man we should be backing for the long term. I think Todd will want a more long term manager approach than Roman did, but I cannot help being reminded of the popular Claudio being given a lot of expensive players, falling short and being removed so Roman could get his own man in. TT is a nice, honest guy like Claudio, am just not sure he will become like Pep or Klopp and that is what we need to be at the top again consistently.

Moot comparison. Ranieri is and always was a bang average manager, Tuchel isn't.

31 minutes ago, timetowaste said:

I'll throw my 2p in. There's a section of fans on here that are more willing to blame Tuchel for our inability to score goals and one of the main reasons is because they're doing what they can to deflect from what is, in my opinion, the main issue, which is the attackers themselves. A lot of people aren't ready to accept that Mason Mount and Kai Havertz are not good enough to be 2 out of the 3 attackers that start.
 

I know I'll get the same spiel about Mount being player of the year etc but he's player of the year for a team that isn't good enough to challenge for the league, if we could replace Mount with another Raheem Sterling and Havertz with a good goalscorer we wouldn't have these issues. I know a lot of people won't admit it but Mount holds us back in this formation, I wouldn't sell him because he's a decent player but will we challenge while he's one of our main men? I'm not sure.

Yes, both Kai and Mason are arguably very 50-50 every time. If he wasn't an academy grad maybe we wouldn't have much of a hang-up but he fills a rare niche for us that it's hard to just bin him off. 

This is Kai's make or break season for me. If he continues being underwhelming, next year it's time to give him to Bayern

39 minutes ago, Argo said:

Moot comparison. Ranieri is and always was a bang average manager, Tuchel isn't.

Maybe so however both managers are not who the new owner picked from the get go.

55 minutes ago, timetowaste said:

I'll throw my 2p in. There's a section of fans on here that are more willing to blame Tuchel for our inability to score goals and one of the main reasons is because they're doing what they can to deflect from what is, in my opinion, the main issue, which is the attackers themselves. A lot of people aren't ready to accept that Mason Mount and Kai Havertz are not good enough to be 2 out of the 3 attackers that start.
 

I know I'll get the same spiel about Mount being player of the year etc but he's player of the year for a team that isn't good enough to challenge for the league, if we could replace Mount with another Raheem Sterling and Havertz with a good goalscorer we wouldn't have these issues. I know a lot of people won't admit it but Mount holds us back in this formation, I wouldn't sell him because he's a decent player but will we challenge while he's one of our main men? I'm not sure.

Conversely there are those who refuse to admit tuchel is not the messiah, he hasn't taken us forward as an attacking side in any way, in fact he's taken us backwards and has us playing tedious, risk free garbage football akin to the failure sarri.

He hasn't managed to make a single midfielder/attacker progress, and constantly seems to try and over think positionally, then gives players very little chance to succeed as he has one way of playing thar simply does not suit our squad.

As for being Mount, that's just unbelievable, he has been our entire attack for the past season. Calling him "decent" is frankly disingenuous at least.

Maybe, just maybe, Tuchel isn't this super manager we wish he was, he has based his play here on not losing, rather than winning.

22 hours ago, Luca Vialli said:

But we've been saying this for over a year and no changes happen to the style of play or coaching.

Because we never improved on Jorginho. The lucky thing with Jorginho is the club always had areas lacking in players that diverted the attention away from our midfield. Under Frank we were in a transfer ban then we needed attackers, last year we signed the most expensive striker ever and left the midfield alone again, then another transfer window frozen due to war. Now that we can operate in a transfer window, all our defenders left. 

We desperately need a playmaking midfielder. A Scholes/Xavi/Fabregas-type player to make use of our movement upfront and a way to use our wingbacks without 3 passes to them. Even Eriksen would have massively upgraded us

27 minutes ago, axman2526 said:

Maybe so however both managers are not who the new owner picked from the get go.

Well he's evidently very happy with him so for all intents and purposes he is someone he picked.

If he wasn't the sack rumours would have started almost immediately after the takeover ala Ranieri and Bruce.

32 minutes ago, dkw said:

Conversely there are those who refuse to admit tuchel is not the messiah, he hasn't taken us forward as an attacking side in any way, in fact he's taken us backwards and has us playing tedious, risk free garbage football akin to the failure sarri.

He hasn't managed to make a single midfielder/attacker progress, and constantly seems to try and over think positionally, then gives players very little chance to succeed as he has one way of playing thar simply does not suit our squad.

As for being Mount, that's just unbelievable, he has been our entire attack for the past season. Calling him "decent" is frankly disingenuous at least.

Maybe, just maybe, Tuchel isn't this super manager we wish he was, he has based his play here on not losing, rather than winning.

Our entire attack? Would he start up front for Liverpool, City or even Tottenham?