13 minutes ago, charierre said:

 How long will it be before Sterling gets frustrated and stops making the runs?

Hmm, I want to say he can ask timo or rom. But both are gone,I think the answer is soon. 

 

 

3 hours ago, Deino said:

You always go on about this the moment Jorginho is mentioned. I never said Jorginho is bad or he doesn't work. Jorginho works for the way we want to play but the midfield has been stagnant for a good 4 years. 

Jorginho is good but he's our only playmaker. You can't expect him to perform at his absolute best for 60 games a year. He'll be average in about 20 games and play out of his skin for 15~20ish games, we need another playmaker to carry his burden. 

Fabregas in his latter years were used by Conte as a gamechanging sub so his minutes and fitness were managed well. Same with Xavi and he had Iniesta to carry the playmaking burden with but we want Jorginho to play his absolute best for 60 games a season which is just not feasible.

The fact that you feel this is an attack on Jorginho is ridiculous. 

Did you just compare one of pl all time assist leader to Jorginho? 

 

 

3 hours ago, Deino said:

You always go on about this the moment Jorginho is mentioned. I never said Jorginho is bad or he doesn't work. Jorginho works for the way we want to play but the midfield has been stagnant for a good 4 years. 

Jorginho is good but he's our only playmaker. You can't expect him to perform at his absolute best for 60 games a year. He'll be average in about 20 games and play out of his skin for 15~20ish games, we need another playmaker to carry his burden. 

Fabregas in his latter years were used by Conte as a gamechanging sub so his minutes and fitness were managed well. Same with Xavi and he had Iniesta to carry the playmaking burden with but we want Jorginho to play his absolute best for 60 games a season which is just not feasible.

The fact that you feel this is an attack on Jorginho is ridiculous. 

It’s still not luck that he’s playing for us, it’s still about other positions not doing their own roles for us well enough. You say that the midfield has been stagnant but the arrival of Jorginho changed the way we play, how about the rest? 

If we invested in the attack, did our investments work out? Werner flopped, Lukaku flopped, Havertz walking the tight rope, Pulisic and Ziyech just subs... From all of the signings apparently it was Giroud that managed to do a decent job.

How about instead of complaining about Jorginho, while even putting out names like Eriksen, you focus on that position and ask if our more advanced midfielders did well enough overall because Eriksen wouldn’t play as the DM, did Barkley do well enough for us, did Mount create enough goals, did Kovacic and Kante since they all run forward...?

Yes our midfield was stagnant but our investments in attack didn’t improve our attack much. Hazard played with a broken Morata and Higuain most of the time and he managed to carry us while having Kante joining in and Jorginho behind. With a better set of players on paper overall in the squad part from Hazard, nobody stands out in our attack regardless of who plays in the midfield. I'm not against buying a new midfielder but I can't support this scapegoating of Jorginho as if he's the reason why Lukaku and Werner flopped. 

Somehow, whenever Chilwell and Alonso make a run they either score, assist or win a penalty... Obviously not always but they can be very noticable in our attacks. It's the pattern of how we play, the coaching. You can put Rice or Bissouma instead of Jorginho and we would look the same in attack, if not worse.

Edited August 9, 20223 yr by Gol15

For short periods during the last 2 seasons, we played some good games with Jorginho and Kovacic. There you have 2 guys who could keep the ball all day, and one of them has a good long passing and good at dribbling. When Kante is fit, 1 of those 2 have to be benched. Kante's unique quality is beyond debate, but he does leave us with only 1 play maker in the current setup. Ideally we find a play to play all 3, or rotate Gallagher and Mount in the 3. There's no reason we can't play with only 2 CD for some games, with Curru a solid LB\LCD who could easily become the 3rd if we have to defend with numbers.

2 hours ago, charierre said:

This clip illustrates why we are so stagnant in attack. Sterling makes the run, the ball isn’t delivered. Preference is for the low risk side pass. How long will it be before Sterling gets frustrated and stops making the runs?

That sums it up perfectly and happened all game, with Mount and Havertz too. 

2 hours ago, charierre said:

This clip illustrates why we are so stagnant in attack. Sterling makes the run, the ball isn’t delivered. Preference is for the low risk side pass. How long will it be before Sterling gets frustrated and stops making the runs?

To be fair I don't care if it's Jorginho, KDB or prime Pirlo, that pass isn't on and very likely gets intercepted 

Just now, dkw said:

That sums it up perfectly and happened all game, with Mount and Havertz too. 

And the attack then shoulder the blame. Our midfield is either told to play extremely safe or unwilling to attempt a pass that the women were making regularly in the recent Euros. Fix the slow safe play and a lot of our attacking woes would disappear. 

Just now, timetowaste said:

To be fair I don't care if it's Jorginho, KDB or prime Pirlo, that pass isn't on and very likely gets intercepted 

Did you honestly watch any of the women in the Euros? The Spanish lass was making that pass regularly. 

6 minutes ago, charierre said:

Did you honestly watch any of the women in the Euros? The Spanish lass was making that pass regularly. 

2mins 22secs

3 minutes ago, charierre said:

Did you honestly watch any of the women in the Euros? The Spanish lass was making that pass regularly. 

Unless there's a big defensive mistake here there's no way that goes through, for the ball to get into that space it would have to beat the last 3 defenders and relying on all of the defenders not reading it. We made a lot of mistakes in this game including Jorginho but this one is just silly, just because Sterling made a run doesn't mean the pass is on.

9 minutes ago, charierre said:

And the attack then shoulder the blame. Our midfield is either told to play extremely safe or unwilling to attempt a pass that the women were making regularly in the recent Euros. Fix the slow safe play and a lot of our attacking woes would disappear. 

Exactly, for me the worst thing isn't that we fail with passes, it's that we don't even attempt those type of passes. But even when Jorginho does its  floaty load of rubbish that gives the attacker no chance.

2 minutes ago, charierre said:

2mins 22secs

So yeah you're relying on a defensive cock up because none of these women saw the pass coming and one of them was staring into space and let the run happen.

That pass would quite clearly be easily intercepted by Mina so good call to not try it. If anything it's Kante who's got some space to explore in that clip when he gets the ball in return from Azpi but it's the usual sideways stuff from him as well. Mount could have been found in the box for example which could have lead to something.

Jorginho had all the time in the world to pick that pass, there was another occasion he held onto it for too long and the space disappeared. This though isn't a go at just Jorgi the midfield on the whole fail to attempt a pass that is clearly on.  A forward will only make the run so many times and then get frustrated. Fix our stagnant play and we will fix an awful lot of our woes and even be entertaining too. 

Am I in the Mason Mount, Jorginho thread or the Thomas Tuchel thread?   At least we are all passionate ...

Anyway bringing it back on track.  I am seeing an increase on social media that TT's tactics is the reason for our lack of goals from our so called forwards rather than the ability of our front players.  While I am not a great supporter of his tactics, I also don't believe that the likes of Havertz, Werner, Ziyech, Pulisic and even Lukaku turned into the worse players on the planet overnight; after all they were all bought to either score or create goals and each under TT's system have failed to deliver even after the bedding in process of arriving in the EPL.  

Certainly when TT came in his first job was to stop the amount of goals we were shipping under Frank.  While Frank's style was more entertaining, TT threw a blanket over everything; while he plugged the leaky defence he stifled the attack in the process...or did he?  

If we look at the stats of the two we find that GF was identical while the GA was in favour of TT.  What we are seeing is a very pragmatic, cautious approach by TT, afraid to lose the ball, slow build up over the sometimes cavalier, swashbuckling approach by Frank that certainly was entertaining and direct at times but caution thrown to the wind when it came to the defensive side of the game.  But what TT has done IMO is turn these attack minded players is to be thinking defence first not attack, hence playing them out of position all in the name of defence, although some of that may be down to the lack of signings after he came in.

When I watch us under TT I haven't been entertained very much TBH, and while it's nice to win a bit of silverware, the football had been down right boring on more than one occasion, even more so than under Jose; whether that's down to the different types of players, or the managers tactics I'm not sure, but my guess is the players were more dynamic under Jose and were let off the leash and he let them play to their strengths, more often than not because he knew we were better than the opposition. TT on the other hand plays pragmatic regardless of who we play apart from the odd team that are so poor that they just give up goals anyway..aka Norwich / Southampton.  Frank simply let  everyone off the leash but we were a calamity at the back.  So where am I going with this diatribe?   TT is clearly set in his ways and no matter what, he will never give up playing more defensive players over offensive players, after all isn't the saying 'that defence wins games'.  

The forwards we have now are more than capable of scoring more goals but creation of good chances appear to be few and far between of late. We are crying out for a creative midfield which would include adding a purely attack minded midfielder and that means TT has to sacrifice his defence, something it seems he will not compromise. While Jorginho will keep ticking things over, generally that will be short sideways or backward passes and on the odd occasion a ball over the top.  Kovacic or Kante may venture forward, but primarily their role is to defend the middle of the park.  That then leaves the only attack comes from the wing backs and while they maybe able to get the odd cross in now and then, rarely are any of the forwards taking up a position in the box.  When the opposition stifle the wing backs we are f**ked; nothing is coming from the middle, nothing coming from the sides, chance creation therefore now reduced further, which means those chances that are created have to be converted. While I can see TT needs another CB due to the aging Silva, what we are desperate for is an attacking midfield player and for TT to find a balance that provides different solutions when Plan A goes down the sh*tter, because I am tired of hearing that we were good for 80 yards and then hit a brick wall. He is responsible for finding those solutions, Hazard isn't here any longer although Sterling might well be a decent substitute.

  I guess we'll find out this weekend...with TT's first test of the season.  Conte will stifle the two wing backs and he knows we have little threat through the middle, whereas Spurs do.  

 

Frank CFC EPL record: Managed 58 - Won 28 Drawn 11  Lost 18   GF 102  GA 77 

TT CFC EPL record: Managed 58 - Won 33 Drawn 16   Lost 9  GF 102 GA 46

 

 

 

 

Edited August 9, 20223 yr by CFCCAN

This debate is going to go on and on,and it's interesting hearing both sides,bit the more I read from fellow supporters I'm starting to edge towards the problem is TT,I've always liked him and he has given us the champions league but there comes a time when that needs to be put aside and questions need to be asked.

4 hours ago, Bob stark said:

Did you just compare one of pl all time assist leader to Jorginho? 

 

 

Yes. Different kinds of player but both are integral to their team

4 hours ago, Gol15 said:

It’s still not luck that he’s playing for us, it’s still about other positions not doing their own roles for us well enough. You say that the midfield has been stagnant but the arrival of Jorginho changed the way we play, how about the rest? 

If we invested in the attack, did our investments work out? Werner flopped, Lukaku flopped, Havertz walking the tight rope, Pulisic and Ziyech just subs... From all of the signings apparently it was Giroud that managed to do a decent job.

How about instead of complaining about Jorginho, while even putting out names like Eriksen, you focus on that position and ask if our more advanced midfielders did well enough overall because Eriksen wouldn’t play as the DM, did Barkley do well enough for us, did Mount create enough goals, did Kovacic and Kante since they all run forward...?

Yes our midfield was stagnant but our investments in attack didn’t improve our attack much. Hazard played with a broken Morata and Higuain most of the time and he managed to carry us while having Kante joining in and Jorginho behind. With a better set of players on paper overall in the squad part from Hazard, nobody stands out in our attack regardless of who plays in the midfield. I'm not against buying a new midfielder but I can't support this scapegoating of Jorginho as if he's the reason why Lukaku and Werner flopped. 

Somehow, whenever Chilwell and Alonso make a run they either score, assist or win a penalty... Obviously not always but they can be very noticable in our attacks. It's the pattern of how we play, the coaching. You can put Rice or Bissouma instead of Jorginho and we would look the same in attack, if not worse.

You don't even get the point of my argument. Our midfield has been the same since 2018. The same pattern always happens, Jorginho plays well = team plays well, Jorginho plays poorly = the whole team suffers. 

Let me simplify it even more, Jorginho is key to how we play. I am not blaming him on our forwards not scoring, that's another argument. 

What I'm saying is we need another playmaker *who is able to replace* Jorginho. He is turning 31 and is about to enter the last year of his 5-year contract. 4+ years he's been with us and he's still our only playmaker

You essentially want us to play Jorginho continuously for 60+ games. That's crazy. Last season Jorginho had to play with a minor injury, we continue playing him like that and we're fecked. If Jorginho gets a long term injury, we don't have anyone that can dictate the tempo. 

Jorginho is not the same as Bissouma or Rice so of course they won't impact the team like Jorginho does. Eriksen playing No. 6 is far closer to Jorginho than either of those two. 

I want Jorginho to continue playing for us and to do that means we need someone who can bring what Jorginho brings to the table and hopefully add extra. Your argument pretty much points this out. 

None of our current midfielders can do what Jorginho does, question is do we want to run Jorginho into the ground again? 

3 hours ago, CFCCAN said:

Frank CFC EPL record: Managed 58 - Won 28 Drawn 11  Lost 18   GF 102  GA 77 

TT CFC EPL record: Managed 58 - Won 33 Drawn 16   Lost 9  GF 102 GA 46

 

 

 

 

 

Lamps also played a team where we had Tomori, Mount, Tammy, Reece, CP making their debuts... i dont think he gets enough credit for his work to keep us in the top 4 with a transfer ban .. with kepa in goal and hazard exit ..

TT's league record has been average given the tools at his disposal with less entertaining football.. Look i love TT and the refreshing honesty he brings but he needs to find more solutions to unlock the attack.. Most of us feel his formation is very defensive..

i believe he uses too many players out of position.. Mount/Haverts have usually played as second strikers but he regularly puts one of them on the wing and another up top alone..He plays wingers and midfielders at wingback.. FBs at CBs .. or players who play on the left to the right..,

It would be nice to actually see some tactical changes to solve this given his reputation because there is a growing group of fans and players who feel strongly about the need to improve our play,

1 minute ago, Jangz said:

 

Lamps also played a team where we had Tomori, Mount, Tammy, Reece, CP making their debuts... i dont think he gets enough credit for his work to keep us in the top 4 with a transfer ban .. with kepa in goal and hazard exit ..

TT's league record has been average given the tools at his disposal with less entertaining football.. Look i love TT and the refreshing honesty he brings but he needs to find more solutions to unlock the attack.. Most of us feel his formation is very defensive..

i believe he uses too many players out of position.. Mount/Haverts have usually played as second strikers but he regularly puts one of them on the wing and another up top alone..He plays wingers and midfielders at wingback.. FBs at CBs .. or players who play on the left to the right..,

It would be nice to actually see some tactical changes to solve this given his reputation because there is a growing group of fans and players who feel strongly about the need to improve our play,

Agreed with the comment re Frank and what he had to deal with.  TT to me has had/does have very good players at his disposal, but I am mystified as to what his game plan is other than play every pure attacking winger as a wing back, hence my comment that defence comes first, attack 2nd.  And when the wing backs play poor or taken out the game his plan falls apart, or cover up the flaws with a Jorginho penalty.  He had Werner and Lukaku that can only play with a ball played that they can run onto therefore as these were his 'goalscorer's' why didn't he change the team formation / tactics to play to their strengths not their weaknesses of slow pragmatic, boring football. 

5 minutes ago, Jangz said:

 

Lamps also played a team where we had Tomori, Mount, Tammy, Reece, CP making their debuts... i dont think he gets enough credit for his work to keep us in the top 4 with a transfer ban .. with kepa in goal and hazard exit ..

TT's league record has been average given the tools at his disposal with less entertaining football.. Look i love TT and the refreshing honesty he brings but he needs to find more solutions to unlock the attack.. Most of us feel his formation is very defensive..

The formation is very defensive because Lampard conceded 77 goals in 58 games.   That's horrific.  That's record setting levels of goals conceded.

The fact Tuchel has kept our attacking output constant while managing to concede 31 less goals (over a goal every 2 games) is an incredible achievement and shows what progress he's made with the team.

He's took a team that conceded 1.32 goals a game and brought that down to 0.79 per game with no defensive reinforcements.  Both starting fullbacks being injured for a good chunk of that time with no replacements and his best defender being a 37 year old who Lampard has when he was slightly springer.

Tuchel has done a fantastic job to that regard.

There's no hope of making us better going forward as long as championship standard dross like Pulisic and players unsuited to the league like Ziyech and Werner occupy our forward roles.

Tuchel has shown he can set the team up to both be solid while still achieving the same offensive output as Lamps Kamikaze football now we just need to get him some more quality up front and a creative presence in midfield and we'll see our offensive metrics improve.

4 hours ago, dkw said:

Exactly, for me the worst thing isn't that we fail with passes, it's that we don't even attempt those type of passes. But even when Jorginho does its  floaty load of rubbish that gives the attacker no chance.

So has Tuchels ‘Pragmaball, cost us 3 Strikers, they either can’t pass like Cesc, or aren’t encouraged to be adventurous, which I find ridiculous on both counts 

7 hours ago, icecoolguy22 said:

For short periods during the last 2 seasons, we played some good games with Jorginho and Kovacic. There you have 2 guys who could keep the ball all day, and one of them has a good long passing and good at dribbling. When Kante is fit, 1 of those 2 have to be benched. Kante's unique quality is beyond debate, but he does leave us with only 1 play maker in the current setup. Ideally we find a play to play all 3, or rotate Gallagher and Mount in the 3. There's no reason we can't play with only 2 CD for some games, with Curru a solid LB\LCD who could easily become the 3rd if we have to defend with numbers.

Why do they though? Some games simply suit the Jorgi/Kova partnership more, Frank buggered our momentum in his first winter trying to shoehorn Kante back in after injury when we were on top form with those 2 and Mount in the middle. It's quite ironic how there's so many moans about our slow build up yet the suggestion of doing one of the few things that has worked very well against packed defenses (playing that trio) is considered blasphemous. I'm not totally sure of our exact record when Jorgi, Kova and Mount start together but i'll be amazed if we were below a 70% win record and a 2 goal a game average ( @Sexyfootballany chance you have that data?) and honestly wouldn't be shocked if it was pushing 75% and 3 goals.

Also even if we pretend Kante is still suitable for every single match circumstance, he's at a stage now his minutes need to be managed, it's no coincidence that the only time this was being done (Tuchel's first half season) brought by a distance his most consistent performances since Conte.

Edited August 9, 20223 yr by Argo

The problem is not so easy to solve for Tuchel.

With Azpi and Thiago Silva you cannot position your last chain of defenders very high because they are too slow.
Especially with Jorginho you must be sure not to lose the ball in midfield and the opponent is starting a counter attack.
What happens if you are playing more aggressively could be seen against West Bromwich Albion where we conceded 5 goals.

What happens if you ignore those facts then you concede a lot of goals like Lampard did and then Tuchel will lose his job anyways.

So a transfer of a fast defender like Fofana is a requirement before you can even think about changing this style of play.

2 hours ago, HazardousChoice said:

The formation is very defensive because Lampard conceded 77 goals in 58 games.   That's horrific.  That's record setting levels of goals conceded.

The fact Tuchel has kept our attacking output constant while managing to concede 31 less goals (over a goal every 2 games) is an incredible achievement and shows what progress he's made with the team.

He's took a team that conceded 1.32 goals a game and brought that down to 0.79 per game with no defensive reinforcements.  Both starting fullbacks being injured for a good chunk of that time with no replacements and his best defender being a 37 year old who Lampard has when he was slightly springer.

Tuchel has done a fantastic job to that regard.

There's no hope of making us better going forward as long as championship standard dross like Pulisic and players unsuited to the league like Ziyech and Werner occupy our forward roles.

Tuchel has shown he can set the team up to both be solid while still achieving the same offensive output as Lamps Kamikaze football now we just need to get him some more quality up front and a creative presence in midfield and we'll see our offensive metrics improve.

As I said, he came in and plugged the leaky defence, and he should be applauded but that would be the first thing Sam Alladyce and others would have done.  But TT threw the entire defensive blanket over the entire team.  While we are all frustrated with the forwards, none of them are totally sh*te players if they were, we wouldn't have bought them in the first place. Pulisic, Ziyech, Werner, Havertz and even Lukaku don't turn to sh*t overnight, they only play poorly if they get played out of position or they are not played to their strengths.  TT IMO had not set up the team to play with attacking wingers that will actually take on a defender, or any midfielder that sole job is to support the attack and make those killer passes.  When is the last time you saw any of our wide players take on a defender and leave them on their arse; certainly not CHO, Ziyech, Werner or even Pulisic; hopefully Sterling will be able to do that although there is talk that Sterling to play down the middle...why when his strength is taking on players out wide... TT's problem is he is frightened of the team losing the ball; he doesn't like anything than a high% pass which if you play thinking that all game you won't take risks and when you don't take risks you will remain status quo..which is what we are seeing.