18 hours ago, HazardousChoice said:

This might be the dumbest thing I've ever read and I've read people say Pulisic is a top talent.

Hopefully no one at the club has this mindset.

We all want to see good football and our football has been turgid as of late but it's a results business.  We don't want to be Arsenal and play some fantastic stuff but get whipped every other week.

Our pragmatic approach is the reason we've done so well in cup competitions and established ourselves as the closest team in England to City/Liverpool. 

It's hard for Tuchel to play free flowing football with such an untalented wet of attackers.  If we want better football and better results we need new attacking players not a new tactical set up.

We won the title after finishing 10th the season before.

not playing in endless Europa games probably helped ?

of course the owners want more games, it's all about the money

Tuchel has to be able to do something about the attack and being more creative. My criticism of Tuchel is that the football is quite dull and repetitive, often relying on one chance. We don’t score enough goals. 
 

The players we have, whilst are not amazing should be better than the current levels. It’s the same argument that we have with Frank’s defence - “players not good enough”. It’s often the system is wrong or needs fixing. 

2 minutes ago, JM7 said:

Tuchel has to be able to do something about the attack and being more creative. My criticism of Tuchel is that the football is quite dull and repetitive, often relying on one chance. We don’t score enough goals. 
 

The players we have, whilst are not amazing should be better than the current levels. It’s the same argument that we have with Frank’s defence - “players not good enough”. It’s often the system is wrong or needs fixing. 

It's worrying that none of the attacking deficiencies from last season seem to have been fixed in any way, we're still far too slow moving the ball forward, far too wasteful once we do eventually get near the opposition area, and seemingly still have no idea how to break a team down when they sit back.

Tuchels excuse is its the same players is pathetic, its literally his job to make the players better, use them better etc. 

9 minutes ago, JM7 said:

Tuchel has to be able to do something about the attack and being more creative. My criticism of Tuchel is that the football is quite dull and repetitive, often relying on one chance. We don’t score enough goals. 
 

The players we have, whilst are not amazing should be better than the current levels. It’s the same argument that we have with Frank’s defence - “players not good enough”. It’s often the system is wrong or needs fixing. 

When we've played with the more fluid system we by in large don't have issues with chance creation and we certainly didn't in these two games this weekend.

Yes finishing is an issue but it's not as easy as it looks to find a suitable fit who will finish off all the chances, as we found out last season just looking at the top line for an option can become counter productive as you lose a man from the buildup and suddenly stop creating all the chances to waste.

40 minutes ago, dkw said:

It's worrying that none of the attacking deficiencies from last season seem to have been fixed in any way,

Getting rid of Lukaku is a start, replacing him with Broja (hopefully) would be a step forward for the team overall, whether he scores enough goals we will have to wait and see, it's way too early to know the answer.

1 hour ago, JM7 said:

Tuchel has to be able to do something about the attack and being more creative. My criticism of Tuchel is that the football is quite dull and repetitive, often relying on one chance. We don’t score enough goals. 
 

The players we have, whilst are not amazing should be better than the current levels. It’s the same argument that we have with Frank’s defence - “players not good enough”. It’s often the system is wrong or needs fixing. 

Arsenal whopping a Sevilla 4-0 inside the first 19mins using a back 3. The difference in how Arteta has set them up is they are not trying to control the game.  They have 60% of the game and are creating chances freely. Helps that he has a “10” in Odegaard, and has managed to squeeze 5 attacking players in his 11.

1 hour ago, ducavis said:

Arsenal whopping a Sevilla 4-0 inside the first 19mins using a back 3. The difference in how Arteta has set them up is they are not trying to control the game.  They have 60% of the game and are creating chances freely. Helps that he has a “10” in Odegaard, and has managed to squeeze 5 attacking players in his 11.

 

Yet when it actually mattered they were 17th on big chances created.

https://www.fotmob.com/leagues/47/stats/season/16390/teams/big_chance_created_team

I’m watching the Community Shield - Vermin & City are miles ahead of us already it seems. I agree TT needs to do more, imo if RA didn’t go he’d be gone for losing the 2 Wembley finals (3 in all). His tactics produce only the occasional moment of exciting attacking football mostly sideways and backwards no synergy or energy. I’m really hoping he can somehow replicate the form at the time of that brilliant win over a Juve last season. After all it’s the same players he’s working with …….

I think we need another elite forward, to really kick on from this lacklustre attack. For me next season Mount and Sterling will perform based off what I've seen in pre season and the last couple of years, but no idea about any of the others.

When you play with 6-7 defensive outfield players in addition to the goalkeeper the team is alrealdy unbalanced in terms of attack. Therefore, the 3 primary attackers have to be all elite at this level to make a difference consistently. Tuchel does not have this luxury, I'm hoping Havertz levels up next season and really starts kicking on, the talent is there for everyone to see. He improved upon his first year, but he's still not consistent.

I'm still not convinced he's the long-term or short-term solution up top. I want Broja to have a chance, but again I'm not convinced he will be able to perform at the output level needed at a club of this level.

I don't want an out and out number 9 tbh, I'd rather we stick with the system he won ucl with, 3 pressing forwards who are flexible positionally. I'd love if we could bring in a hybrid forward that can play anywhere across the front line, who posesses elite levels of finishing and chance creation.

 

10 hours ago, LongtimerLurker said:

I think we need another elite forward, to really kick on from this lacklustre attack. For me next season Mount and Sterling will perform based off what I've seen in pre season and the last couple of years, but no idea about any of the others.

When you play with 6-7 defensive outfield players in addition to the goalkeeper the team is alrealdy unbalanced in terms of attack. Therefore, the 3 primary attackers have to be all elite at this level to make a difference consistently. Tuchel does not have this luxury, I'm hoping Havertz levels up next season and really starts kicking on, the talent is there for everyone to see. He improved upon his first year, but he's still not consistent.

I'm still not convinced he's the long-term or short-term solution up top. I want Broja to have a chance, but again I'm not convinced he will be able to perform at the output level needed at a club of this level.

I don't want an out and out number 9 tbh, I'd rather we stick with the system he won ucl with, 3 pressing forwards who are flexible positionally. I'd love if we could bring in a hybrid forward that can play anywhere across the front line, who posesses elite levels of finishing and chance creation.

 

Fluid front 3 + Elite level finishing + chance creation + comfortable in sustained possession = Barcelona MSN

Those are minimum 150-200 m / player  if that is what it take to get our offensive game better than we are screwed. 

Honestly, I don't think we need those. All we need is Chilwell to be back to his best and one more consistent creator (eriksen would haven been interesting option) from midfield and we will be fine.  We would create enough chances to compensate our forward lack of ruthless finishing. 

 

 

6 hours ago, Bob stark said:

Fluid front 3 + Elite level finishing + chance creation + comfortable in sustained possession = Barcelona MSN

Those are minimum 150-200 m / player  if that is what it take to get our offensive game better than we are screwed. 

Honestly, I don't think we need those. All we need is Chilwell to be back to his best and one more consistent creator (eriksen would haven been interesting option) from midfield and we will be fine.  We would create enough chances to compensate our forward lack of ruthless finishing. 

 

 

I highly disagree mate, MSN was built with an academy player and 2 ~£75m players (Suarez and Neymar), BBC was built with 2 £80-85m players and a £35m. Salah, Firmino and Mane cost all below £45m each. When Man City won the league with a squad rotation, but primarily a front 3 of Sterling, Sane and Aguero (not to include KDB because we're only looking at a front 3) Sterling was £49m, Aguero was £40m and Sane was below £50m. 

I understand you're looking at a post Neymar market, but even that has calmed down a bit now and prices are started to regulate back to a more fairer reflection of a players value.

It's lazy just not reality anymore to expect £150m for those types of players anymore. We literally signed one of them this summer for below £50m (Sterling). Not to mention Liverpool and City have continued to sign this type/profile of player in recent seasons (Jota, Diaz, Torres, Alvarez) for way below the figures you're expecting.

It's important for the scouting team and the board to identify targets that will meet this criteria whilst not ridiculously overpaying for them. These traits and characteristics exist in plenty of players who we can sign for below £50m (I wouldn't mind if it's <£70m as long as they are the real deal) it's just whether we can find them and pay a reasonable fee. 

Mendy, Koulibaly, Silva, James, Kovacic, Mount, Havertz and Sterling are top players with no concerns from our squad. That is not many. Players like Kante, Jorginho and Chilwell all have baggage. Jorginho mainly due to his inability to perform well in the Prem against high pressing sides. 

We need to add at least 2 players of the highest caliber to have any hope of finishing in the Champions League places and to challenge City and Liverpool.

Young players like Chalobah, Gallagher, Ampadu and Broja all fill me with pride and excitement for the future. Hopefully Thomas is able to integrate them to the side this season well and truly. Depends on how we perform in the market naturally.

22 hours ago, ducavis said:

Helps that he has a “10” in Odegaard, and has managed to squeeze 5 attacking players in his 11.

They could overtake us this season if they keep it up and we don’t improve this squad. I’m personally hoping they’re just doing a Ziyech, fantastic preseason followed by a season long holiday with odd purple patch. 

 

18 hours ago, LongtimerLurker said:

I highly disagree mate, MSN was built with an academy player and 2 ~£75m players (Suarez and Neymar), BBC was built with 2 £80-85m players and a £35m. Salah, Firmino and Mane cost all below £45m each. When Man City won the league with a squad rotation, but primarily a front 3 of Sterling, Sane and Aguero (not to include KDB because we're only looking at a front 3) Sterling was £49m, Aguero was £40m and Sane was below £50m. 

I understand you're looking at a post Neymar market, but even that has calmed down a bit now and prices are started to regulate back to a more fairer reflection of a players value.

It's lazy just not reality anymore to expect £150m for those types of players anymore. We literally signed one of them this summer for below £50m (Sterling). Not to mention Liverpool and City have continued to sign this type/profile of player in recent seasons (Jota, Diaz, Torres, Alvarez) for way below the figures you're expecting.

It's important for the scouting team and the board to identify targets that will meet this criteria whilst not ridiculously overpaying for them. These traits and characteristics exist in plenty of players who we can sign for below £50m (I wouldn't mind if it's <£70m as long as they are the real deal) it's just whether we can find them and pay a reasonable fee. 

Not sure you want to use BBC or Aguero as example, soon we will talk about we signed Drogba only for 25 m. 

Sterling is a good shout. Not sure, I consider him at elite level at creating and finish maybe one level below that. When I am talking about elite creator n finisher I am talking about salah, Mbappe, neymar, Messi, Suarez or even eden. We sold eden for 100 m and RM ended up paying us around 140 m. 

My worry for the team is not that we will finish top 4 rather dont think we have made much progress to cover the gap with City and Pool.. Despite the glorious preseason - how many of us will take on players from arsenal's attacking line up? Jesus maybe but Odegard, Nketiah, no thanks.. 

Yes they beeat us 4-0 but their preseason started on July 2nd ours on july 20th . So no i dont worry about aresenal.. the signings we made our better and a different caliber.. Sterling starts over Jesus every day of the week and so does Koulibaly over their entire backline. On spurs i think you take out Kane and Son who would you take on?

 

41 minutes ago, Jangz said:

My worry for the team is not that we will finish top 4 rather dont think we have made much progress to cover the gap with City and Pool.. Despite the glorious preseason - how many of us will take on players from arsenal's attacking line up? Jesus maybe but Odegard, Nketiah, no thanks.. 

Yes they beeat us 4-0 but their preseason started on July 2nd ours on july 20th . So no i dont worry about aresenal.. the signings we made our better and a different caliber.. Sterling starts over Jesus every day of the week and so does Koulibaly over their entire backline. On spurs i think you take out Kane and Son who would you take on?

 

Saka? Martinelli? & if we got offered Saliba & Gabriel from their defence, I would snap them up. 

30 minutes ago, ducavis said:

Saka? Martinelli? & if we got offered Saliba & Gabriel from their defence, I would snap them up. 

I would take Martinelli and Saka in a heartbeat over Pulisic.

1 hour ago, ducavis said:

Saka? Martinelli? & if we got offered Saliba & Gabriel from their defence, I would snap them up. 

54 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

I would take Martinelli and Saka in a heartbeat over Pulisic.

 

Saka had 11 goals in 38 appearances mostly as a starter and Martinelli had 6 goals in 29 appearances.. Pulisic had 6 in 22. I dont see them start over our current front 3 and not be more than squad players.. yes good players if Top 4 are your ambition.. but if you looking to challenge City and Pool i think the category we are looking for is Mane, Salah, Sterling, Haaland..

like i said i am more worried that we are losing ground to the top 2 rather than can we finish in the top 4.

 

22 hours ago, Munkworth said:

fantastic preseason followed by a season long holiday with odd purple patch. 

Zinedine Barkley?? 

Sad to see how clueless he looks in transfer market. Doesn't seem to have a plan or shopping list but just walking through the aisles and impulse buying. 

No seeming plan for the present, short term or long term. 

He needs help and fast. Hopefully the scout department also start pulling their weight because at the moment it seems we have a bunch of toddlers in that department that don't know their right from left. 

3 hours ago, abister1 said:

Sad to see how clueless he looks in transfer market. Doesn't seem to have a plan or shopping list but just walking through the aisles and impulse buying. 

No seeming plan for the present, short term or long term. 

He needs help and fast. Hopefully the scout department also start pulling their weight because at the moment it seems we have a bunch of toddlers in that department that don't know their right from left. 

Agreed .. if we are willing to pay up 75 mil for a guy who has 30 Epl appearances please spare me.. cucurella was available for 15 mil the summer we bought chilwell and we were linked to him then too..I think TT is a good tactician but I am not sure on the assessing  potential part.

6 hours ago, Jangz said:

Agreed .. if we are willing to pay up 75 mil for a guy who has 30 Epl appearances please spare me.. cucurella was available for 15 mil the summer we bought chilwell and we were linked to him then too..I think TT is a good tactician but I am not sure on the assessing  potential part.

Actually I'm a little more at ease about it compared to what I was.

All the players we have been targeting bar CR7 have a stylistic suitability to his tactics, even the ones with question marks on their level like Ake. Very refreshing change from last summer when we just looked at the top line without realising the 'star' signing wouldn't suit the tactics (that or naively thinking we could adapt him).

4 hours ago, Argo said:

All the players we have been targeting bar CR7 have a stylistic suitability to his tactics, even the ones with question marks on their level like Ake. Very refreshing change from last summer when we just looked at the top line without realising the 'star' signing wouldn't suit the tactics (that or naively thinking we could adapt him).

Stylistic suitability? It really is scary because it means the thought process is.... this guy could work, that one can work, oh he will work as well. Rather than this is who I need for this to happen and it will work because of..... 

And it also links in with the problem we had when we signed a "star" because the thought process wasn't how will I get the star to do what he does so we can achieve our goal of..... Seemed more of oh we didn't score a lot of goals, this guys scored lots of goals, let's get him as he can work out for us. 

The more I analyse our (and even though I say our, the buck stops at TT's desk, especially now it's been made clear he is driving transfers) transfer activities, the less confident I am in how he improves on his past performances. 

13 minutes ago, abister1 said:

Stylistic suitability? It really is scary because it means the thought process is.... this guy could work, that one can work, oh he will work as well. Rather than this is who I need for this to happen and it will work because of..... 

Yes. Sterling is a proven inside forward of the type we try and use in this system and Koulibaly has spent years playing in proactive systems in Naples and is probably the best replacement for Rudiger we could have wished for.

Cucurella has spent a season shining in probably the most similar system to ours stylistically (back 3, fluid, pressing, creates a decent amount) so he's quite a clear fit.

If we look at players we missed Raphina would have unfortunately been perfect for TT's system, MDL played in the heavy metal Ajax one.

If we suddenly decided to stop Lukaku's loan and go after say Maguire, Dier and Wan Bissaka then you'd have a point but most of the players I see us linked with I could almost instantly identify as to how they would fit into the best version of this system.