1 hour ago, Trueblue76 said:

I don't, think it is outrageous and I completely disagree with this comment, fact of the matter is we have a squad made up of several managers choices that are an ill fit for the way Tuchel wants to play.. Certain players can only play in one way and one system, no amount of coaching is going to change that.

 For example, Werner will not improve his strike rate with coaching in this league, he’s in a rut and frankly although I rate him for workrate alone, he is not suited to the premier league and will never get enough space to score, for a player that needs several chances and space to run into, you cannot coach him to become a completely different player and even if you could, we have a squad full of players that do not suit the system.

 Ziyech is not all of a sudden going to become a beast and fight for every ball, he’s too lightweight for the prem.

 We get fans on here calling for a back four to suit the attackers, all well and good but look what happened when Lampard played a back four we were shipping goals left right and centre and the opposition was shutting up shop. The team and squad is so unbalanced I can see why Tuchel is making these comments, at the very least you would expect a player when pulling on the blue shirt to give 110% in every match and if they don’t then damn right they should get called out on it… they earn enough money to at least play for the fans!

The squad needs to be balanced out with smart signings, but we can't do that at the moment as we don't have enough centreback cover, we have too much deadwood and we are behind due to sanctions etc..

 This mess will take at least 2 seasons and 4 transfer windows to sort out.  

This is a sane line of thinking; why has he gone out and purchased a 27yr old & a 31yr old player then? If we are been real, we have no chance of winning the league in the next couple of seasons. Why is the manager running around saying we want to win, when there is so much to do to get our squad in order.

His signs smack of a short term approach without a long term plan, this is why we needed a sports director this summer not Jan. Everyone is running around saying give the manager the players he wants, but if it goes pear shaped and fails we are stuck with ageing signings on big wages. I still insist a Sports Director won’t be targeting the players he is after.

1 hour ago, Sexyfootball said:

Nail on head.

There is an interesting article on the Daily Mail web page today about Edu's approach at Arsenal when he came on board as DoF which (if you park any sentiment about it being "Arsenal") actually has a lot of good points in it that are very applicable to our situation.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-11044127/Big-money-flops-killing-Arsenal-admits-Edu-aims-Champions-League-return.html 

 

•    Arsenal technical director Edu created a five-year plan when he was appointed
•    It has involved getting rid of older, high salary players who are not performing
•    None of the 10 outfield players who have signed since last year are older than 25
•    But the Brazilian will not be happy until the club are competing for the title again

Edu will discover soon if he really did read the runes. The technical director told Mikel Arteta and the Arsenal board a couple of years back: 'Guys, 2022-23 will be the season we are going to be much better.'
Edu's forecast formed part of a new, five-year plan for Arsenal, devised after Unai Emery was sacked in late 2019.
Change, driven alongside Arteta, has been ruthless and expensive and, at times, painful.
'If a guy is performing and has a big salary, that's not a problem,' Edu says. 'When the player is 26-plus, big salary and he's not performing, he's killing you.u 
'You don't have a valuation to sell the player, the player is comfortable — Arsenal, London, beautiful, everything is fantastic — and a good salary. How many players with that kind of characteristics did we have in the past? Eighty per cent of the squad.'
Not any more. On Edu's watch, around 40 players have been shipped out. Some, including Pierre-Emerick Aubameyang and Mesut Ozil, were paid to leave. Several more will go this summer.
Since last year, 10 outfield players have arrived. None older than 25.
'Try to avoid one more year with the problem in the dressing room,' Edu says. 'Take it out. Even if you have to pay because that guy is sometimes blocking someone.' He considers it an investment.
 

The Arsenal approach would have been the perfect approach for us to take in the market. You get to build your own squad in a patient manner, no this crazy throw money at players and see what sticks. He could have cleared the dross out of the team while targeting players under 25yrs, way off their peak and with legs for his pressing game. The issue is I don’t think he knows how to develop players, and he isn’t interested in it. It’s about the here and now. The irony is Liverpool, & City have started rebuilding for their new phase.

Tuchel isn't blameless in some things but I'm just going put him aside for the minute because at the end of the day he'd already identified players he needed but we haven't been able to get them over the line. This transfer window has been a big learning curve for Boehly and the rest of the consortium and it's also shown how important a good sporting director is. 

Edited July 25, 20223 yr by timetowaste

Anyone else find it a little worrying that non of Tuchel's ex players pushed to play for him again? Dembele, Neymar, Kimpembe all would rather stay where they are (even take a bloody pay cut) than to work with Tuchel again., 

54 minutes ago, Sconnie Blue said:

Anyone else find it a little worrying that non of Tuchel's ex players pushed to play for him again? Dembele, Neymar, Kimpembe all would rather stay where they are (even take a bloody pay cut) than to work with Tuchel again., 

This is 1+1=3. The players you mention (and others) may not even be a Chelsea target, on top of which there may be all kind of reasons why players, if a Chelsea offer has come in for them, would decide against Chelsea, not against working with Tuchel again.

Edited July 25, 20223 yr by Valerie

24 minutes ago, Valerie said:

This is 1+1=3. The players you mention (and others) may not even be a Chelsea target, on top of which there may be all kind of reasons why players, if a Chelsea offer has come in for them, would decide against Chelsea, not even against working with Tuchel again.

But you don't know that they would no more than I don't know that they wouldn't? Your counter argument is just as moot as mine. 

 

56 minutes ago, Sconnie Blue said:

But you don't know that they would no more than I don't know that they wouldn't? Your counter argument is just as moot as mine. 

 

Well, what I'm saying is that there are known knowns and that there are known unknowns. But there are also unknown unknowns; things we don't know that we don't know.

Gin Rummy; The Boondocks

Given some of the press believe TT is not that huge a fan of Kounde in the first place I wonder if he will be pushing the club to drop the bid and move on to other targets soon?

Also wonder if he would be happy with a back 3 of 

 

Killman 

Skriniar 

Koulibaly  

?

4 minutes ago, axman2526 said:

Given some of the press believe TT is not that huge a fan of Kounde in the first place I wonder if he will be pushing the club to drop the bid and move on to other targets soon?

Also wonder if he would be happy with a back 3 of 

 

Killman 

Skriniar 

Koulibaly  

?

Kilman would be at best 6th choice here.

Bang average player.

The only reason we'd even consider him is there's no chance of Barca or any other big club coming in to gazump us.

Edited July 25, 20223 yr by HazardousChoice

3 minutes ago, axman2526 said:

Given some of the press believe TT is not that huge a fan of Kounde in the first place I wonder if he will be pushing the club to drop the bid and move on to other targets soon?

Also wonder if he would be happy with a back 3 of 

 

Killman 

Skriniar 

Koulibaly  

?

Skriniar is class but Inter want €70m which is why PSG haven't got him yet. Kilman I haven't been sold on him yet, would rather we gave Colwill a chance and sign Dumfries as RWB back up with Reece dropping in at RCB if needed 

1 hour ago, Sconnie Blue said:

But you don't know that they would no more than I don't know that they wouldn't? Your counter argument is just as moot as mine. 

 

Your initial post was implying players did not want to play a second time for Tuchel. I merely pointed out you suggested something based on flawed assumptions. As indeed I know as little as you, I'm not suggesting or assuming anything.

21 minutes ago, timetowaste said:

Skriniar is class but Inter want €70m which is why PSG haven't got him yet. Kilman I haven't been sold on him yet, would rather we gave Colwill a chance and sign Dumfries as RWB back up with Reece dropping in at RCB if needed 

We were prepared to pay almost as much for Kounde, who supposedly was a player that Tuchel had some doubts over anyway. If that is the case €70m doesn't sound out of range for Skriniar. But that assumes Tuchel rates the player.

2 hours ago, Sconnie Blue said:

But you don't know that they would no more than I don't know that they wouldn't? Your counter argument is just as moot as mine. 

 

That's like me saying your wife was out that night because she was cheating on you, then you saying no she is not where's the proof but then me saying where's the proof that she didn't?

7 minutes ago, sonic90 said:

That's like me saying your wife was out that night because she was cheating on you, then you saying no she is not where's the proof but then me saying where's the proof that she didn't?

 

19 minutes ago, forbzy said:

We were prepared to pay almost as much for Kounde, who supposedly was a player that Tuchel had some doubts over anyway. If that is the case €70m doesn't sound out of range for Skriniar. But that assumes Tuchel rates the player.

If he does rate him seems a good choice.

29 minutes ago, forbzy said:

We were prepared to pay almost as much for Kounde, who supposedly was a player that Tuchel had some doubts over anyway. If that is the case €70m doesn't sound out of range for Skriniar. But that assumes Tuchel rates the player.

Oh yeah I'd definitely just pay the money if we can get him.

3 minutes ago, timetowaste said:

Oh yeah I'd definitely just pay the money if we can get him.

At the very least we could chase him for a few weeks before he either stays at Inter or goes somewhere else.

TT right about now lol

4 hours ago, ducavis said:

This is a sane line of thinking; why has he gone out and purchased a 27yr old & a 31yr old player then? If we are been real, we have no chance of winning the league in the next couple of seasons. Why is the manager running around saying we want to win, when there is so much to do to get our squad in order.

His signs smack of a short term approach without a long term plan, this is why we needed a sports director this summer not Jan. Everyone is running around saying give the manager the players he wants, but if it goes pear shaped and fails we are stuck with ageing signings on big wages. I still insist a Sports Director won’t be targeting the players he is after.

The Arsenal approach would have been the perfect approach for us to take in the market. You get to build your own squad in a patient manner, no this crazy throw money at players and see what sticks. He could have cleared the dross out of the team while targeting players under 25yrs, way off their peak and with legs for his pressing game. The issue is I don’t think he knows how to develop players, and he isn’t interested in it. It’s about the here and now. The irony is Liverpool, & City have started rebuilding for their new phase.

Lots of assumptions. Fact is: when Tuchel came in under Abramovich there was no indication that Roman would be interested in a slowly but steadily rebuild. His whole time at Chelsea speaks against this notion and splashing that kind of money on Lukaku also points into the other  direction. As TT said at that time: this is a club where you need to win/win/win and quite frankly, when I follow this forum it‘s also what the vast majority of fans expects.

Edited July 25, 20223 yr by weetee

Skriniar's ability on the ball as a RCB or LCB is why I'd imagine Tuchel isn't so keen. 

More than evident he wants these wide sided CBs to drive forward with the ball. 

What's wrong with Trev as a RCB? He's pretty good for a 23 year old and is only going to get better. 

 

We have Sarr Colwill and Ampadu as back up CB's as well, even Reece can play RCB if needed. I really don't see the point splashing 60m on someone like Kounde who sees us as a 2nd choice. We should sign another attacker or a CM if anything

I'm still not sure about CHalobah. He makes quite a lot of mistakes.

14 minutes ago, Drogba1 said:

What's wrong with Trev as a RCB? He's pretty good for a 23 year old and is only going to get better. 

 

We have Sarr Colwill and Ampadu as back up CB's as well, even Reece can play RCB if needed. I really don't see the point splashing 60m on someone like Kounde who sees us as a 2nd choice. We should sign another attacker or a CM if anything

There is nothing wrong with Trev as a RCB. Him starting week in week RCB is wrong. 

21 minutes ago, Drogba1 said:

What's wrong with Trev as a RCB? He's pretty good for a 23 year old and is only going to get better. 

 

We have Sarr Colwill and Ampadu as back up CB's as well, even Reece can play RCB if needed. I really don't see the point splashing 60m on someone like Kounde who sees us as a 2nd choice. We should sign another attacker or a CM if anything

We are looking for up to 2 more defenders as is so TT likely does not rate Trev, Ampadu or Colwill as starters.

I like Trev but he needs to take the next step this season as well which isn't a matter of course. And I wouldn't like to see James play a back-up RCB as well because imho it should be about managing his minutes and not burn him out while managing other players minutes on the RCB position. It's a WC coming up mid season and he will need as many rests as possible to maintain his high power play.

Although Tuchel often says it's a possibility I don't see a back 4 that likely anytime soon. Could be wrong of course. Because our current formation not only protects our midfield, which is lacking in the DM position, but it also protects our keeper - Mendy - who would be much more involved in build up phases than in a back 5 formation. And I for one have - unfortunately but what can you do? -  zero trust in his passing game. And with his age he won't get much better at it as well.

Edited July 25, 20223 yr by weetee

Think you lot are over analyzing , TT is a top manager is a he world class like Pep & Klopp ? (current EPL Manager benchmark of success level)- from what I've seen albeit under quite mental recent history circumstances (Covid then RA forced to sell along with the license restrictions) he's nowhere near their level. Is that because he isn't as 'talented' or because of those extraordinary circumstances ?

He needs time to build his own squad to be truly compared to those 2, and that's my point the previous regime's main transfer policy over the last 5 years has come home to roost. 

This link to Transfer Market shows all of CFC's historical dealings, scroll down to 2017 and then go up, here's the highlights with an outcome (in mills of US $)

https://www.transfermarkt.us/fc-chelsea/alletransfers/verein/631

Morata   $ 72.6  Failure   Baka $ 44  Failure  Drinky  $ 41.6 Failure  Zappa $ 27.5 Failure  Ross B $ 18.8 Failure  Giroud $ 18.7  Success TT benched him left won the title in Italia

Kepa $ 88m Failure  Pully $ 70.4 after 3 seasons not value for that price  Jorginho $ 62.7 not value for that price

Kova $ 49.5 Success

Havertz $ 88 after 2 seasons not value for that price  Werner $ 58.3 Failure  Chilly $ 55.2 Success until injury  Zyech $ 44 Failure  Mendy $26.4 Success

Lukaku $ 124.3  Failure

Failures total $ 519.1 mill

Not Value Total $ 150.7 mill

Successes  Total $ 149.8 mill

These figures do not of course include wages which a lot of the failures still here are on silly money to add insult to injury

In the world of recovery they say the amount of time it will take you when lost to find your way out of the woods is dependent upon the amount of time it took to get in that situation - so lets get real and don't expect Bully & Co to sort this out in 1 window and make this recently much criticized squad into world beaters - premier league or even top 4 contenders in a couple of weeks. 

Need quality value for money signings fast ! Easy to say but in reality challenging to do with little experience in the market.