He's lost his place at Athletico to Rodrigo De Paul.  For whatever reason he is way out of favour at Athletico and I think that should give cause for pause or at least understand why they felt the need to buy someone to replace him.

 

He started 22 games only last season and its clear he has lost form. The question is whether its just form or something more. Simeone was apparently a huge fan for many years and I doubt very much he would be leaving if Simeone thought he could get back to where he was. To me there is clearly some longer term issue.

 

regarding his health the Mail, that reliable source states:

"

He burst a kidney in 2015 against Bayer Leverkusen when he took a kick from Kyriakos Papadopoulos.

He had suffered renal colic the previous season and another blow to same area meant he needed four days in hospital so that doctors could drain his kidney and reduce the clot that had formed around the bruise."

Edited August 21, 20214 yr by ozboy

Nope. That is all.

So our current scenarios are as follows 1. leave it as it is. Go into season with 3 players + Ruben + makeshift options. 2. Buy Tchouameni/Saul Niguez/Declan Rice.

Personally I am a bit worried trying to tackle 60+ games with 3 players for 2 positions. Jorginho has games he shouldn't play, Kante is prone to injury spells and Kovacic isn't the main man from the 3. I would prefer us to try and buy someone. Billy Gilmour for me was better for the spot than anyone we can field there apart from Mount but I don't want to waste Mason to that spot... 

I see it like when we got Ivanovic, someone capable of starting regularly who can be worked into the team over the course of a season. Still when you see that both Jorginho and Kante are up for UEFA player of the year, it’s a big standard. Kova may not be the main man but he’s no slouch. So it is a hard decision if Kounde is also on the table. 
 

it is easy to imagine 2 of the three injured at once. So I think we do need 4 contenders for the 2 spots. 

22 hours ago, ozboy said:

 

He started 22 games only last season and its clear he has lost form. The question is whether its just form or something more. Simeone was apparently a huge fan for many years and I doubt very much he would be leaving if Simeone thought he could get back to where he was. To me there is clearly some longer term issue.

 

regarding his health the Mail, that reliable source states:

"

He burst a kidney in 2015 against Bayer Leverkusen when he took a kick from Kyriakos Papadopoulos.

He had suffered renal colic the previous season and another blow to same area meant he needed four days in hospital so that doctors could drain his kidney and reduce the clot that had formed around the bruise."

I think some of his best seasons were after 2015, so this theoretically shouldn’t be a worry. I recall him being brilliant in the CL against a PL team, I think Liverpool. If he could regain some of that form this could be a shrewd deal.

A loan is fine. Need to see if he can hack it in the Prem. 

^ Yeah I read somewhere we may try a loan deal first, I would actually like that try him for a season if it works out drop £30m on him similar to the Kova deal if it doesn't well no harm no foul try again next season for another cm/dm.

I 100% share the sentiment though I dont think we can go into the season with just 3 recognised cm. 

 Unless Ruben can step up despite his size and physicality I don't see him as a cm, especially in out system his tendency to push forward means the only pairing I could really see working would be with Jorghino and even that I'm concerned about.

Again I could be wrong and tbh I would be happy to be wrong because that would mean Ruben has surpassed my expectations.

Mason could drop to the pivot but, for me his strength is the fact we can play two cm and then have Mount alongside them since he plays as a fwd and mid at the same time and we would lose this positional advantage with him there.

I definitely think we need a new Midfielder over a defender, i think we are stacked with quality in the back line, and Saul Niguez would be perfect..

9 hours ago, Ballack & Blu said:

I definitely think we need a new Midfielder over a defender, i think we are stacked with quality in the back line, and Saul Niguez would be perfect..

Tchouameni and Camacinga are far superior midfileders. Either one could be acquired for approximately 35 million Euros. Get it done, Marina. 

21 minutes ago, TheGreatestGame said:

Tchouameni and Camacinga are far superior midfileders. Either one could be acquired for approximately 35 million Euros. Get it done, Marina. 

Far superior midfielders...? Don't know what to say about that, other than Niguez would be the better transfer than these two on every single level.

- far more calm and composed, no risk of buying another Bakayoko

- experienced on the highest level, far more of a finished product which is what we need in rotation with Jorginho+Kanté+Kovacic (otherwise I'd rather have kept Billy over Tchouameni/Camavinga)

- capable of playing a commanding holding role to provide cover for Jorgi in particular

- beautiful left foot for transition game and, finally, shots from a distance

- somehow still only 26

- if the media are to be believed, potentially available on loan (ideally with option to buy) which would

a) free up funds to buy Koundé this summer

b) give us the option next summer to review his perfomances, see where Billy's at and if we still have the hots for Rice for some reason.

 

If we end up buying one of the players you named I'll back them and hope they find their role (while being a bit sad about not keeping Billy around), but Niguez- particularly on loan - would be on a whole other level.

I'd take him if it's a 12 month loan deal. 

I think we need a 4th midfileder because there's a lot of games to be played this season and an injury or suspension to any one of Kante, Kovacic or Jorginho will leave us looking pretty thin. 

A one year loan deal means that come next summer, all goes well, Gilmour can return to the club with a bit more experience and ready to compete for a place in the team. 

1 hour ago, Luiz4Chelsea said:

Far superior midfielders...? Don't know what to say about that, other than Niguez would be the better transfer than these two on every single level.

- far more calm and composed, no risk of buying another Bakayoko

- experienced on the highest level, far more of a finished product which is what we need in rotation with Jorginho+Kanté+Kovacic (otherwise I'd rather have kept Billy over Tchouameni/Camavinga)

- capable of playing a commanding holding role to provide cover for Jorgi in particular

- beautiful left foot for transition game and, finally, shots from a distance

- somehow still only 26

- if the media are to be believed, potentially available on loan (ideally with option to buy) which would

a) free up funds to buy Koundé this summer

b) give us the option next summer to review his perfomances, see where Billy's at and if we still have the hots for Rice for some reason.

 

If we end up buying one of the players you named I'll back them and hope they find their role (while being a bit sad about not keeping Billy around), but Niguez- particularly on loan - would be on a whole other level.

Both players are rated significantly higher than Niquez. They are also much younger and healthier than Niquez. Why would Chelsea want a guy who can't even crack the lineup at RM? 

 

Plus Chelsea already has a surplus of CBs, even if Zouma transfer to West Ham goes through. Kounde is a luxury whereas a young, talented midfielder is an obvious need right now. 

9 minutes ago, TheGreatestGame said:

Both players are rated significantly higher than Niquez. They are also much younger and healthier than Niquez. Why would Chelsea want a guy who can't even crack the lineup at RM? 

 

Plus Chelsea already has a surplus of CBs, even if Zouma transfer to West Ham goes through. Kounde is a luxury whereas a young, talented midfielder is an obvious need right now. 

I mean they're certainly being rated higher by you, I've noticed that.

If Niguez at 26 and with an unspectacular injury record is too senile for you it's time to terminate a looot of our player's contracts.

And in what universe is a young, talented midfielder an obvious need for us right now? With the season we're facing we've evidently come to the conclusion that we're not offering the right environment to develop a 19 year old talent behind Jorginho, Kanté and Kovacic, with all the playing time and patience that requires. A player btw that possesses most of the qualities needed to offer back up to Jorginho, even if some of us prefer to see him play a bit further forward. Your response is we should sign an 18 year old box-to-box midfielder instead?

You're right that missing out on Koundé probably wouldn't make us sweat this season but getting him would still be immense. If Zouma leaves we're playing 3 at the back with 2 hyper experienced options (Silva and Azpi), the very promising Chalobah and 2 players in their physical prime (Christensen and Rüdiger). Koundé is remarkably composed for his age, can play in back 3 and 4 and would offer a new dimension to us playing out from the back, which I'd particularly love to see against low block sides. If we manage to buy him it'll be a very intelligent deal.

Other than playing the "transfermarkt value / age" game I see no good reason buying Camavinga over loaning Niguez this summer. Maybe I'm forgetting that "bullet proof financial investment" has become the no. 1 transfer argument for some fans

I'm just not sure why AM want to sell (and rather cheap at that) or loan a player like Saul who should now actually enter his absolutely prime. But I don't really follow them so who knows. Sometimes you need some fresh blood even after winning big titles. IMO Camavinga isn't the right guy for our midfield so I agree there - I'd rather hope for Tchouameni - so I can see Saul on loan being an attractive asset. But since we have three already hyper-experienced players I don't think it's too far fetched to add a younger yet still experienced player to our squad.

 

 

3 hours ago, TheGreatestGame said:

Both players are rated significantly higher than Niquez. They are also much younger and healthier than Niquez. Why would Chelsea want a guy who can't even crack the lineup at RM? 

 

Plus Chelsea already has a surplus of CBs, even if Zouma transfer to West Ham goes through. Kounde is a luxury whereas a young, talented midfielder is an obvious need right now. 

Other than he is the Heart of ‘Atletico Madrid’, not RM,  he is a superb experienced international player, who is probably, no is an upgrade on Kovacic!

I’d take him on a loan deal it’s unrealistic to splash 80m on a Declan Rice and expect him to displace a champions league winning midfield. Saul would give us a wealth of experience versatile and perfect for the number 6 role would be a great 3rd / 4th midfield option in a very long season.

Many would know I have been saying we should buy him for a long time. For me a loan is a bit of a no brainer, noting that we would likely end up playing a 50+m fee to buy him next season. 

Naturally there have been question marks about why Atleti want to sell him and also why he wants to leave. I'd simply say that he didn't have a great season last year and he is probably their most saleable asset. He can do things that are very valuable to other teams but not as valuable to Simeone who asks for a more defined role from his players. How he is being offered on loan is beyond me, but it makes me think he also wants out.

For mine he brings some key things even if he is out of form:

1. A winner's attitude and energy: A bit like Dave in this sense. His bad games will be 7 out of 10s because he does all the little things regardless. He's not a slink into his shell type. You'll also find that he would match the high energy style needed from Tuchel. In games like the weekend for example where we struggled without Kante he'd be perfect. There will be no Kovacic type of issues about tracking back either. He'll be hurtling back to cover counters.

2. Left foot: We've lacked a midfielder who opens up options with a left foot for a long time. We have several up field but this can be massive in terms of changing angles in the build up and playing out of trouble.

3. Versatility: I think he is almost the perfect Tuchel player. Has the skills to play virtually any role apart from striker and possibly right wing back. Gives you options everywhere.

Those are the basics we'd be getting based on last year, you get more based on every other year of his career. I also think he has more in his kitbag that hasn't been required or used in Simeone's style. The reason he has a 150m buyout is because Barca were willing to throw the kitchen sink at Atleti a couple of years ago thinking he was the perfect fit for their style. He has that Spanish midfielder DNA as well, which he often showed playing for the national team, but wasn't required at Atleti.

A loan for a player with elite mentality and workrate who has played in and won big matches is exactly what you're looking to do to strengthen for a title run. I suspect he would be a bit like Dave at the start here. He'll be in the team somewhere, even if it isn't in a CM spot, simply because his quality and workrate demands it. Speaks English also.

Finally for those advocating for Camavinga or Tchouaméni as an alternative I'd simply say that these players have potential but they would need to fulfil that and more to get to Saul's level. Don't mistake looking good as a young player in a poor league for being the finished product. 

Edited August 23, 20214 yr by Spiller86

There is no way he is superior to Kova at the moment. There is no question Saul was an excellent player, equally he couldn’t get a starting birth in last seasons  average AM, a team we comfortably beat. This season they have said goodbye to him. I can see the story as a short term loaner or cut price deal as an emergency player, to do gilmour’ s job from last season. 
 

but mostly that is not the way we are building the team. We really want someone that cab[n gradually be blended in as a full time starter. Like Kounde. Saul is not that player in my opinion. Kante, kova and Jorginho are all in the second half of their careers, Kante is an obvious injury risk. 

26 minutes ago, ozboy said:

There is no way he is superior to Kova at the moment. There is no question Saul was an excellent player, equally he couldn’t get a starting birth in last seasons  average AM, a team we comfortably beat. This season they have said goodbye to him. I can see the story as a short term loaner or cut price deal as an emergency player, to do gilmour’ s job from last season. 
 

but mostly that is not the way we are building the team. We really want someone that cab[n gradually be blended in as a full time starter. Like Kounde. Saul is not that player in my opinion. Kante, kova and Jorginho are all in the second half of their careers, Kante is an obvious injury risk. 

Not to nitpick but you know Atleti won the league in Spain last season right? With half the budget of Real and Barca? Not average.

I'd also note he has started both of Atleti's games so far this season despite being shopped around. 

Kovacic is different to Saul. Kovacic does the flashy bits. Great turn in traffic, but can lose concentration and focus particularly when we're caught without the ball. Saul is the reverse of that. Because of the injury risk to Kante, Saul is a good  fit. Again it's the elite mentality and experience to make a push for the title.

9 minutes ago, Spiller86 said:

Not to nitpick but you know Atleti won the league in Spain last season right? With half the budget of Real and Barca? Not average.

I'd also note he has started both of Atleti's games so far this season despite being shopped around. 

Kovacic is different to Saul. Kovacic does the flashy bits. Great turn in traffic, but can lose concentration and focus particularly when we're caught without the ball. Saul is the reverse of that. Because of the injury risk to Kante, Saul is a good  fit. Again it's the elite mentality and experience to make a push for the title.

I do know that, and feel free to nit pick. Its how I learn. Despite winning the league I thought they were average as evidenced by getting beaten by a team that finished 4th in the Premier League. By general consensus La Liga was the weakest in years last year. But yes they won. Niguez played a lot less games than a few seasons earlier. And thanks for pointing out he has started and finished both league games this season and AM won both. Its Trippier getting subbed this season. 

I'd agree Kova can lose focus and makes the odd mistake, but I still rate him and think he fits into the Chelsea style exceptionally well. The left foot thing is of interest and he might make a great backup for Jorginho.

On the downside he has a lot of miles in his legs 375 appearances in La Liga/Champs league 56 appearances in 17/18 down to 41 last season. If you think about footballers like cars its not just age but also the mileage travelled that determines service condition. How would I know what's best. 

54 minutes ago, ozboy said:

I do know that, and feel free to nit pick. Its how I learn. Despite winning the league I thought they were average as evidenced by getting beaten by a team that finished 4th in the Premier League. By general consensus La Liga was the weakest in years last year. But yes they won. Niguez played a lot less games than a few seasons earlier. And thanks for pointing out he has started and finished both league games this season and AM won both. Its Trippier getting subbed this season. 

I'd agree Kova can lose focus and makes the odd mistake, but I still rate him and think he fits into the Chelsea style exceptionally well. The left foot thing is of interest and he might make a great backup for Jorginho.

On the downside he has a lot of miles in his legs 375 appearances in La Liga/Champs league 56 appearances in 17/18 down to 41 last season. If you think about footballers like cars its not just age but also the mileage travelled that determines service condition. How would I know what's best. 

I agree on the mileage question. It's probably the biggest question mark on him. Whether he is similar to Rooney and that starting at an early age means he fades earlier as well. Particularly with the kidney removal that you mentioned a few weeks back. 

For mine a loan is pretty safe bet for a player with a huge upside but some risks as you say. That big game and trophy winning experience and attitude for me is perfect for a title push. We shall see what happens. 

Marina on Facebook today said there is a number 17 missing in our squad, then there is a video of  Saul,she has done this before with Lukaku, so who knows.

5 hours ago, Spiller86 said:

I agree on the mileage question. It's probably the biggest question mark on him. Whether he is similar to Rooney and that starting at an early age means he fades earlier as well. Particularly with the kidney removal that you mentioned a few weeks back. 

For mine a loan is pretty safe bet for a player with a huge upside but some risks as you say. That big game and trophy winning experience and attitude for me is perfect for a title push. We shall see what happens. 

I'm a massive fan of Saul but he is not the same player he once was, and there is a real chance he may never hit those heights again.

Saul has opened up in January about how his injuries have affected his perspective and the mental aspect of the game. Diego Simeone confirmed this in a recent interview. Physical and technical ability are one thing, but once your mental ability and desire for the game have gone, they are incredibly hard to recapture. 

On the upside though, there is a reason why so many top clubs have been linked with him. Saul is the perfect midfielder and in our system he can cover Kante, Jorginho or Kovacic's role with ease. He also offers one thing that all the others cannot - the ability to see and execute defense-splitting short passes through packed defenses. There is a reason why Barcelona wanted him when Iniesta was on the wane.

For some former prodigies, a change is as good as a holiday. Kovacic is a good example, and his time at Chelsea has utterly revived his career. For others, a change makes the mental battles all the worse - see Ross Barkley.