59 minutes ago, Adamrb said:

surely that means his fee isn't counting towards this summer's FFP then? and if that is the case, why have we rushed to agree a fee now rather than plain loan?

he's bound to go up in value with another 12 months of PL football

Not necessarily ... we've had way more failures than successes for development squad loanees ... 

22 minutes ago, Hot Since 1882 said:

You guys produce some great footballers from Cobham, but I can't see you ever having a next John Terry ever again. 

We've literally just given Colwill a huge role in the first team set up ... and it wasn't that long ago (last season) that we had a game in which 6 out of the outfield 10 had been through Cobham. If they are good enough they will play. If they aren't they will eventually move elsewhere, having had a first class academy development experience at Chelsea. 

13 minutes ago, Hot Since 1882 said:

How many games/minutes do you think Maatsen will play this season? Behind Cucarella, Chillwell, Colwill? 

If/When Halll moves he's light years ahead of Paul Dummett and Matt Targett, with only Dan Burn at LB. Hall is polar opposite player to Burn - he'll start. Howe sees him Hall as his Zinchenko/Cancelo/Lewis option - the roaming left back role

I think Colwill's pathway is clearer as Thiago Silva is 40? - but otherwise, how do Chelsea Cobham players actually ever have a chance to make it with you? You keep signing band average 19-25 players as back up, and never let a player actually show if he's great(James/Mount)/ a squad player(Tomori/Abraham etc.), or just useless ... 

Rumours were that we were in for Andrey Santos long before Chelsea - he'd be playing games right now this season for us. We've got a 17 year old called Lewis Miley - best player in our pre-season - Howe says to media he's not going out on loan. We can't afford to buy a £30M off the shelf 5th choice midfielder, we don't want to - either way Lewis Miley is a first team player. 

I feel sorry for whoever is the best CM in your academy/U21. You guys produce some great footballers from Cobham, but I can't see you ever having a next John Terry ever again. 

Maybe give it a few years of your club spending loads of £££s and playing in the Champs League, then see how many amazing kids you are producing for your first team squad. Your owners wont be patient for years if you're not winning anything. Top 4 is not a trophy. It's not easy to develop players whilst also staying in the Top 4 - we know the hard way.  

Also, even with Hall going to you boys, we currently have James, Colwill, Chalobah, Maatsen, Gallagher and Broja getting decent playing time in our main squad! I reckon that's more HG/academy products in our first team then most of the top 10 prem teams, no? How many you got playing regularly - Longstaff and who else ???? 

Not sure what your point is on Mount. He had three seasons as a starter, turned sh*t and then forced a move despite us trying to keep him. Tammy had two seasons and tbh, didn't hit the standards required really. Probably worse than Wilson.  

Also, aside from Silva, our entire squad is now virtually under the age of 25. Chilwell is a senior citizen at 26! Santos will compete with Enzo, Lavia, Moises Caicedo and Ugo. May the best talent win I say. But you can see why we don't really have room for Hall, even though he's a top player. 

Hall is a good player and I'm gutted to see him leave. But apparently he wants to be a CM. He's decent at LWB though, but at LB in a flat back 4 like you play, I think he will leave you too open. He was poor at LB in our development squad - was always better further forward. And can't exactly see him getting into your very good midfield either.    

 

14 minutes ago, Sexyfootball said:

We've literally just given Colwill a huge role in the first team set up ... and it wasn't that long ago (last season) that we had a game in which 6 out of the outfield 10 had been through Cobham. If they are good enough they will play. If they aren't they will eventually move elsewhere, having had a first class academy development experience at Chelsea. 

well said. winds me up how many people still talk about us not giving pathways to academy players. I think we have more in our squad - even after selling Mount and Hall - then any other decent team in the league. I guess old reputations are difficult to shift.     

Business wise this is a brilliant move.

Our recent transfer fee splurges are costing us (in FFP amortization terms) around £135 million per year. This consists of last seasons £600 million (divided by the 8 year contracts that amortization allows for those signings), and this years £300m(ish) which is spread over the 5 years of contracts - since the change in rules.

1 game into this season, and we have ALREADY posted a £30million profit for NEXT season. That is before we get into prize money, £130m per season in TV rights etc.

With the sales of Havertz, Mount and RLC - we have already posted big profits this yeasr and do not have the absolute need for additional transfer income for FFP this season - because the debt is already more than serviceable for this year. BUT....FFP will be an ongoing concern, and the profit for Lewis HAll that will be "booked" next season will already go a big way towards making us compliant for the 2024/25 season as well.

Cracking work from the club.

Yes - if we simply loaned Hall, he could go on to have a brilliant season and increase in value to £50m. Equally - he could also get injured, have a stinker or simply not get picked - dropping him down to CHO levels of value.  So - taking the £30m of pure profit now makes sense and is justified.

4 minutes ago, nonotnowjim said:

Business wise this is a brilliant move.

Our recent transfer fee splurges are costing us (in FFP amortization terms) around £135 million per year. This consists of last seasons £600 million (divided by the 8 year contracts that amortization allows for those signings), and this years £300m(ish) which is spread over the 5 years of contracts - since the change in rules.

1 game into this season, and we have ALREADY posted a £30million profit for NEXT season. That is before we get into prize money, £130m per season in TV rights etc.

With the sales of Havertz, Mount and RLC - we have already posted big profits this yeasr and do not have the absolute need for additional transfer income for FFP this season - because the debt is already more than serviceable for this year. BUT....FFP will be an ongoing concern, and the profit for Lewis HAll that will be "booked" next season will already go a big way towards making us compliant for the 2024/25 season as well.

Cracking work from the club.

Yes - if we simply loaned Hall, he could go on to have a brilliant season and increase in value to £50m. Equally - he could also get injured, have a stinker or simply not get picked - dropping him down to CHO levels of value.  So - taking the £30m of pure profit now makes sense and is justified.

My thoughts exactly.

This initial loan is so that the profit will end up on next years books and that will be needed. If Gallagher and Chalobah goes as well it would not surprise me if we do similar deals for them.

I do think 28 million is low though but as you said, pure profit that the club needs so I assume they didn't want to take any risks.

Edited August 18, 20232 yr by OriginalS

1 minute ago, Adamrb said:

well said. winds me up how many people still talk about us not giving pathways to academy players. I think we have more in our squad - even after selling Mount and Hall - then any other decent team in the league. I guess old reputations are difficult to shift.     

Colwill, James, Trev, RLC, Broja, Connor, Mount, Christensen, CHO, Abraham - have all been players over the past few years that have made big contributions to our first team. Then we have players like Tomori, Hall who have all also played. And then others, like Lamptey, Livramento, Musiela, Guehi who have all gone on to leave early on.

The point being that there is a cracking academy, and not many other clubs can point to as many players produced as us.

 

Up the Chels.

The other thing that is at yet unquantified, is the huge reduction the club have made to the wage bill. We won't see the figures for some time, but it would not surprise me at all if they have knocked that back by about 25-40% across the whole squad. Given it had got to £340m in 21/22 ... we could easily be talking an eight or nine figure saving. I imagine that will help the FFP calculations no end !

1 hour ago, Adamrb said:

surely that means his fee isn't counting towards this summer's FFP then? and if that is the case, why have we rushed to agree a fee now rather than plain loan?

he's bound to go up in value with another 12 months of PL football

I expect as its a deferred fee to next year we are ok with FFP this year so makes more sense to use the fee on next year's FFP. 

One should also remember that UEFA's FFP is quite a bit stricter than Premier Leagues. Hall on next years books is also in preperation of hopefully being back in the Champions League.

8 minutes ago, dkw said:

I expect as its a deferred fee to next year we are ok with FFP this year so makes more sense to use the fee on next year's FFP. 

That’s what I was thinking when I saw it was a loan with obligation, but I wonder if it was more from Newcastle’s side and their own FFP requirements?

I wouldn’t claim to know their financial position, but perhaps they are maxed out on a FFP basis?

If we were needed income for current FFP compliance, as many Twitter users are desperate for the world to think, then we would have insisted on the immediate sale - otherwise what’s the point? 
So this being a deferred purchase could well be at Newcastle’s request, and one that equally suits us with the booking of income next year. 

1 hour ago, nonotnowjim said:

Colwill, James, Trev, RLC, Broja, Connor, Mount, Christensen, CHO, Abraham - have all been players over the past few years that have made big contributions to our first team. Then we have players like Tomori, Hall who have all also played. And then others, like Lamptey, Livramento, Musiela, Guehi who have all gone on to leave early on.

The point being that there is a cracking academy, and not many other clubs can point to as many players produced as us.

 

Up the Chels.

And ill say this a million times, the first goal of an academy is to produce professional football players. 

If I'm a 14 year old choosing which academy to sign for, I'm not looking at our alumni and questioning why they aren't at Chelsea, I'm looking at multiple professional players playing in top leagues across Europe 

3 minutes ago, bisright1 said:

And ill say this a million times, the first goal of an academy is to produce professional football players. 

If I'm a 14 year old choosing which academy to sign for, I'm not looking at our alumni and questioning why they aren't at Chelsea, I'm looking at multiple professional players playing in top leagues across Europe 

Most sensible families of young players understand the low percentage of players who make it through an academy of a top club to play first team, so if there sensible they surely look to one that has the best chance of getting their kid into pro football, and we must be one of the best for that in the recent past I expect.

3 hours ago, Hot Since 1882 said:

How many games/minutes do you think Maatsen will play this season? Behind Cucarella, Chillwell, Colwill? 

If/When Halll moves he's light years ahead of Paul Dummett and Matt Targett, with only Dan Burn at LB. Hall is polar opposite player to Burn - he'll start. Howe sees him Hall as his Zinchenko/Cancelo/Lewis option - the roaming left back role

I think Colwill's pathway is clearer as Thiago Silva is 40? - but otherwise, how do Chelsea Cobham players actually ever have a chance to make it with you? You keep signing band average 19-25 players as back up, and never let a player actually show if he's great(James/Mount)/ a squad player(Tomori/Abraham etc.), or just useless ... 

Rumours were that we were in for Andrey Santos long before Chelsea - he'd be playing games right now this season for us. We've got a 17 year old called Lewis Miley - best player in our pre-season - Howe says to media he's not going out on loan. We can't afford to buy a £30M off the shelf 5th choice midfielder, we don't want to - either way Lewis Miley is a first team player. 

I feel sorry for whoever is the best CM in your academy/U21. You guys produce some great footballers from Cobham, but I can't see you ever having a next John Terry ever again. 

The primary job of Cobham is to produce professional footballers. In an ideal world this would be to furnish the first team. Reality though is that many don’t reach the standard required or have their path blocked by not only established stars but also by other alumni from the academy as was the case of Reece and Lamptey/Livromento. Our academy is a goldmine, no other club in the Premier League has as many graduates playing across the league at present, it is major legacy from Roman, a gift to football. As for any future CM, if he is the best in the academy he will be pleased with his accomplishments and the knowledge he has been given the best possible education in becoming a top player with a huge career ahead of him.

 

 

 

I would prefer Hall to Cucurella as most others would. But with the hit we’re about to take for letting Ziyech and Lukaku (hopefully) leave for far less than their book value, we probably can’t afford to do the same with Cucurella. 
As for midfield, I dont think he (or anyone, really!) will get in instead of Enzo, Caicedo and Lavia for a looong time

Which means that just maybe a sale is the right call, even though it hurts letting a top prospect from the academy go

I like the new strategy of young talents on long contracts and lower wages as they will be easier to shift if they don’t work out - but there will be some sacrifices along the way. Looks like Hall is one of them 

 

1 hour ago, charierre said:

The primary job of Cobham is to produce professional footballers. In an ideal world this would be to furnish the first team.

I think it's slightly different to that, in an ideal world the academy produces enough players to self fund, and also create funding for first team players while producing one player every generation to feed into the first team, it's as much a money maker as a squad player maker.

Loaned then sold to balance the books no other reason , last year I said the aim of new owners would be to cash in on as many academy players as possible to underwrite their spending (wise or not be the judge of that, my opinion is clear) you lot can justify Lewis' loan/ sale by saying him and the others that have been sold wont be missed i.e. they are not good enough for CFC 1st team squad. I would counter that argument by pointing out most of the lads RA sold have been successes at other EPL clubs, we've even been rumored at looking at buying some back the last few windows.

Yes we do have a lot of new very young prospects signed from other clubs (their academy players). Like I also said last year all the Board are doing is replacing Cobham lads with other clubs' academy lads, again a lot on here will justify that by saying new players signed are better prospects than our academy boys that have been sold for pure financial profit. All of these transactions are of course one big gamble ,kicking the FFP can down the road and hoping for a result at the end of it all.  

 

4 hours ago, AndyDowsleftflank said:

I would prefer Hall to Cucurella as most others would. But with the hit we’re about to take for letting Ziyech and Lukaku (hopefully) leave for far less than their book value, we probably can’t afford to do the same with Cucurella. 
As for midfield, I dont think he (or anyone, really!) will get in instead of Enzo, Caicedo and Lavia for a looong time

Which means that just maybe a sale is the right call, even though it hurts letting a top prospect from the academy go

I like the new strategy of young talents on long contracts and lower wages as they will be easier to shift if they don’t work out - but there will be some sacrifices along the way. Looks like Hall is one of them 

 

Yah... and could be they are still hoping to sign another striker before the window closes and he's the fall guy for that too...

Good luck to the lad. He’s off to play for the team he supports.

It’s a very good fee for someone who’s played so little but we might end up regretting this.

4 hours ago, 19seventyone said:

Good luck to the lad. He’s off to play for the team he supports.

It’s a very good fee for someone who’s played so little but we might end up regretting this.

We might….

…But over the last 20 years how many players have we really regretted getting rid of?

For me it’s Robben, Salah and KdB. Those are the only ones.

At a push you could argue  players like Matic, Luiz, Lukaku - but only regretting those from a financial perspective (given we paid big bucks to buy them back)

There has not been many that we regret from a talent or output perspective. Perhaps in the future we will regret the likes of Guehi, Tomori, Tammy, Livermento etc….but history suggests the odds are that we will not. 

Edited August 19, 20232 yr by nonotnowjim

Looking at the best of the academy that we have ended up selling or losing in the last 20 years, how many of these do we genuinely regret ?

Livramento, Lamptey, Aina, Ake, Guehi, Christensen, Tomori, Mount. RLC, Gilmour, N.Chalobah, Musiala, Cork, Baker, Abraham, Solanke, Brown.

I'd bet Hall becomes another addition to the list, rather than a Terry, James or (hopefully) Colwill.

3 hours ago, nonotnowjim said:

At a push you could argue  players like Matic, Luiz, Lukaku - but only regretting those from a financial perspective (given we paid big bucks to buy them back)

I didn't regret Lukaku leaving one bit, him effectively reimbursing most of our Diego Costa money is up there with the best business we've ever done.

Us being stupid enough to buy him back does put a bit of an asterisks on it though mind.

13 minutes ago, Argo said:

I didn't regret Lukaku leaving one bit, him effectively reimbursing most of our Diego Costa money is up there with the best business we've ever done.

Us being stupid enough to buy him back does put a bit of an asterisks on it though mind.

Didn't regret Matic or Luiz either for that matter, Matic was well past it, for me he was subpar for about 2 and a half seasons before we sold him. The problem was is that we bought Bakayoko as a replacement... And Luiz was getting shifted into midfield because his defending was that bad, and I didn't regret flogging him to Arsenal either because he was sh*t there. 

18 hours ago, Victor90 said:

Didn't regret Matic or Luiz either for that matter, Matic was well past it, for me he was subpar for about 2 and a half seasons before we sold him. The problem was is that we bought Bakayoko as a replacement... And Luiz was getting shifted into midfield because his defending was that bad, and I didn't regret flogging him to Arsenal either because he was sh*t there. 

I think we had sold matic for 1.5 mil to buy him back for 24.. 

1 hour ago, Jangz said:

I think we had sold matic for 1.5 mil to buy him back for 24.. 

Exactly my point in the initial post. Spot on