*Update. 

We are now 18th in 2nd half results. 

Relegation candidates. 

16 minutes ago, timetowaste said:

But why would you stand aside and criticise an underperforming team? We have a young team which is why I don't expect us to be winning the league yet, but should be we be doing a lot better? Yes, with the team we have we should be pushing for top 4. We don't have worse players than Brighton, Wolves, West Ham and some others that are ahead of us, therefore we are underachieving, so why would we not try and pinpoint the reasons for it?

The reasons are all ignored in favour of pinning absolutely everything on the manager.

If it makes you feel better I suppose ... 

If everyone's fit we'd be doing better for sure, but our injuries are significant, and require expectations to be re-set as no team is going to be able to handle this level of injuries, and especially when so many of the squad are new to the PL and inexperienced in football in general. Look at Brentford ... 9th last season, injuries/absences (Toney 1H of season) have dropped them down to 15th. Should they be sacking Thomas Frank ? Is it all his fault ? Brighton have had some recent injuries and are one draw and two defeats in their last three games. Is that on De Zerbi ? Apparently not as I was told on here it was down to their injuries, and I agree with that ... and it's the same reason that I'll cut Poch some slack as well, and yet here you all are blaming Poch left right and centre for the same thing. 

It's simply irrational to heap all the blame on Pochettino.

Got used to us being a bit Meh now, and I can't see it changing any time soon, no matter who the manager is.

I can understand peoples frustration with Poch (even ignoring the fact he was once Spurs Manager). When we have had passionate, demonstrative managers like Mourinho, Conte and Tuchel in the past, to see Poch sitting there not getting very animated, does wind me up a bit. But I still think with our current situation - ie: very young & inexperienced squad, of mixed ability players - some who are clearly not good enough but we are stuck with on long-term contracts, then Poch is one of the better options and all we can hope is that we get rid of a bit more of the deadwood in the summer AND sign a striker worthy of the name.

We are where we are. Mid table, one cup final and still in the FA Cup but with little chance of actually winning it.

 

1 hour ago, ozboy said:

I don't like criticising the owners, they have put their money down big time and they have backed a vision of young players. You can say it's all about earning a return but no-one buys a football club like chelsea just as a money making machine. At least not in my opinion. There are generally many safer investments. The strategy could never have been designed to pay off in the first year, but equally its probably fallen well short of the plan. That happens often enough in life. As we all know you only find out about character when things go awry. Next season we will know whether the owners have character or not.

Nevertheless just like the players the owners have to learn the hard way and in my opinion they have made two major mistakes. 

(1) Getting sold a bill of goods buying long term injured players. These are guys that would be absolute world beaters if they were ever on the pitch for long enough; and 

(2) Not doing a good job on identifying the right manager for this squad at this time. Frankly, earnestly speaking Poch was an easy mistake to make. He done ok without winning anything ( unfairly I don't count PSG winning in France as anything)  and he was supposed to be good with young players. But the owners should have done better. 

Of the two mistakes it's much easier and cheaper to fix the wrong manager than the injured players. Hopefully next time the owners will make a good selection. Probably that will be next season because there is hardly anything to be gained by changing this season. The chances of getting to Europe this year are very low. Personally I thought the first year target was top 4, but I didn't reckon with Nkunku, Chukwumeka and Lavia being out the entire season. But certainly getting to Europe would have been a reasonable target. So I am guessing the owners' project is about a year behind schedule. Just have to put up Poch for another 12-14 games and hope the squad can get some belief as opposed to motivation as to what can be done next season. 

How does correcting "mistake" (2) make any difference to the outcome in the light of (1) ? And if (1) is in play, plus other injuries on top as well, how do you know that (2) is even the case, or that the new guy won't similarly be a "mistake" because the conditions still exist ?

You just said yourself that your expectation for the season was based on certain players being available, But not just the 3 players you mention but a whole host of others are missing as well. You're basically agreeing with what I've been saying in many of my posts, that injuries are mitigation for what we are seeing, with the fundamental difference that you still want to blame the manager for the injuries for some reason, rather than sympathise with him and offer support ?

44 minutes ago, timetowaste said:

its disastrous in terms of the role he has personally played, he was given a job to improve our young players and improve our league position, he has done neither of it. Along the way he's also played mostly boring football, badly managed the fitness of the squad despite no European football, racked up dozens of injuries and accumulated the third least number of points in the second half of the game, ahead of only Sheffield United and Burnley. Correct me if I'm wrong but one of the manager's key jobs is game management, yet after every half time we are consistently awful.

Sometimes things take longer to put things right. We have a side where most have been signed from overseas, from different quality leagues and who are at different levels of ability. I dont blame Poch for injuries, this is a club thing given the long list we've had for a good number of years. 

Presumably you're not into the pressing football most of the league plays. that's fine, but it's what the owners wanted, both Roman and now Clearlake. 

fitness, I thought we were in pretty good shape from pre season. 

No euro football, an issue pre-dating poch.

Second half stats are meaningless when the only metric that matters is the league table. It does show that it might be a fitness or communication issue...  Some games are worse than others, some games are better than others. Point taken, we fall away in second halves of football, something the management can all work on. 

the club will make a decision on poch in the summer. Im happy with the outcome either way, stays or goes, but if he goes, I can see the same issues happening next season so that's why I think fans should give him the benefit of the doubt. The entire ethos of the club is being changed on the pitch and behind the scenes, including the hiring and firing and player recruitment. Yes we all want to win, but we are not Chelsea pre Roman where throwing money at something worked. The teams at the top have all been together a lot longer than our players have. 

Liverpool, City, Arsenal squads, even Tottenham and Aston Villa have been together far longer than ours. It makes a huge difference. We all want to win, disappointment makes success that much sweeter... 

 

 

38 minutes ago, Nibs said:

Got used to us being a bit Meh now, and I can't see it changing any time soon, no matter who the manager is.

I can understand peoples frustration with Poch (even ignoring the fact he was once Spurs Manager). When we have had passionate, demonstrative managers like Mourinho, Conte and Tuchel in the past, to see Poch sitting there not getting very animated, does wind me up a bit. But I still think with our current situation - ie: very young & inexperienced squad, of mixed ability players - some who are clearly not good enough but we are stuck with on long-term contracts, then Poch is one of the better options and all we can hope is that we get rid of a bit more of the deadwood in the summer AND sign a striker worthy of the name.

We are where we are. Mid table, one cup final and still in the FA Cup but with little chance of actually winning it.

 

I think if you look at how passionately our midfield -trio tackles opponents (mainly Conor and Moises) you can't say Poch being passionate/or not on the touchline means anything. Look at Carlo. Yesterday his team went 2-0 down and he didn't raise an eyebrow. 

Pochettino clearly just isn't an animated coach. 

On the other hand I've always enjoyed the coach being a bit mental. It is part of the show 😅

7 minutes ago, evissy said:

I think if you look at how passionately our midfield -trio tackles opponents (mainly Conor and Moises) you can't say Poch being passionate/or not on the touchline means anything. Look at Carlo. Yesterday his team went 2-0 down and he didn't raise an eyebrow. 

Pochettino clearly just isn't an animated coach. 

On the other hand I've always enjoyed the coach being a bit mental. It is part of the show 😅

I think it is all about striker a balance. I loved Mourinho version 1 and Conte even more. When he ran up & down the touchline and jumped into the supporters it was great. And TT too. But when you see Arteta and Klopp doing it, I'd like to see them given a slap!

Don't expect Poch to be like any of them - he is his own man with his own way of doing things, but when the side is playing sh*t and players aren't performing, I would like to see him get off his arse and point that out to them. But as I say, everything is a bit Meh and it might be my age, but I honestly have never been so disinterested in Chelsea as I have this season (with a handful of exceptions). That is more down to how our club is run than Poch but he is still partly to blame.

Edited March 4, 20242 yr by Nibs

Re Pochettino supposedly being good at developing young players. I have no idea how he did in his previous jobs with that, so not sure that reputation is actually accurate. But it seems to me that if you have practically nothing but young players, inexperienced in the EPL to boot, it's more than likely only a handful at most will actually benefit from Pochettino 's coaching. So no surprise IMO that many of them either fall by the wayside entirely, and some may need more time.

1 hour ago, Sconnie Blue said:

*Update. 

We are now 18th in 2nd half results. 

Relegation candidates. 

Still 17th, according to this:

https://twitter.com/Je_Frota/status/1764003659715666145/photo/2

Very damning. Shows how poor Poch's in-game management and use of the bench has been.

3 minutes ago, Valerie said:

Re Pochettino supposedly being good at developing young players. I have no idea how he did in his previous jobs with that, so not sure that reputation is actually accurate. But it seems to me that if you have practically nothing but young players, inexperienced in the EPL to boot, it's more than likely only a handful at most will actually benefit from Pochettino 's coaching. So no surprise IMO that many of them either fall by the wayside entirely, and some may need more time.

This is a good point Val.

I've always followed the fate of the England U17 team that won the U17 World Cup a few years ago, the one where 5 of the squad were Chelsea players at the time (with 4 in the starting XI), which was what ignited my interest in following their careers a bit.

Most have subsequently fallen by the wayside, and only a few are really making their mark at top level 6/7 years down the line (Foden, Gallagher, Guehi, plus Gibbs-White and perhaps now CHO to a lesser extent after his recent resurgence at Forest).

Smith-Rowe, Sancho would have been in the list but both seem to have lost their way. 

This U17 competition seems to be where we have gone shopping for some of our young "talents" ... thinking specifically of Casadei, Santos and Paez. Certainly no guarantees that any of them will kick on at pro level, regardless of the quality of coaching they receive. Santos is worrying me a bit already !

 

ENGLAND U17 WORLD CUP WINNING TEAM : 

Green = "made it" ; yellow = "at a PL club, but peripheral"

 

 

32 minutes ago, Backbiter said:

Still 17th, according to this:

https://twitter.com/Je_Frota/status/1764003659715666145/photo/2

Very damning. Shows how poor Poch's in-game management and use of the bench has been.

Read this morning that Bournemouth's result dropped us to 18th. 

53 minutes ago, Sexyfootball said:

This is a good point Val.

I've always followed the fate of the England U17 team that won the U17 World Cup a few years ago, the one where 5 of the squad were Chelsea players at the time (with 4 in the starting XI), which was what ignited my interest in following their careers a bit.

Most have subsequently fallen by the wayside, and only a few are really making their mark at top level 6/7 years down the line (Foden, Gallagher, Guehi, plus Gibbs-White and perhaps now CHO to a lesser extent after his recent resurgence at Forest).

Smith-Rowe, Sancho would have been in the list but both seem to have lost their way. 

This U17 competition seems to be where we have gone shopping for some of our young "talents" ... thinking specifically of Casadei, Santos and Paez. Certainly no guarantees that any of them will kick on at pro level, regardless of the quality of coaching they receive. Santos is worrying me a bit already !

 

ENGLAND U17 WORLD CUP WINNING TEAM : 

Green = "made it" ; yellow = "at a PL club, but peripheral"

 

 

Good post. And that just reminds us how much young talent falls by the wayside. Not that we need telling as look at all our FA Youth Cup success a few seasons back against how few of those actually made it through to the first team squad.

The McCeachran curse continues with George now at Swindon whilst big brother Josh is now at Oxford United. Can't believe he is now 31 - only seemed 5 minutes ago he was 17 with the world at his feet!

 

3 hours ago, Nibs said:

Good post. And that just reminds us how much young talent falls by the wayside. Not that we need telling as look at all our FA Youth Cup success a few seasons back against how few of those actually made it through to the first team squad.

The McCeachran curse continues with George now at Swindon whilst big brother Josh is now at Oxford United. Can't believe he is now 31 - only seemed 5 minutes ago he was 17 with the world at his feet!

 

Josh McCeachran was great hope of the academy wasn’t he. 
 

I think what a lot of the posts have been saying is that the players we’ve signed have hit some sort of purple patch at their previous clubs and have been signed on that on that promise. Unfortunately, the promise doesn’t always come true. 

10 minutes ago, JM7 said:

Josh McEachran was great hope of the academy wasn’t he. . 

342 appearances in his career now, mainly in the lower levels of the game of course, and bizarrely just the 1 career goal ... makes John Obi Mikel look positively prolific LOL

He really did look the business in those handful of early appearances under Carlo.

6 minutes ago, Sexyfootball said:

He really did look the business in those handful of early appearances under Carlo.

It was no better than any other youth player at any club relishing the first few matches of first team football. 

Think during that time, any English midfielder with a bit of technical ability was massively overhyped, similar to Jack Wilshere. Pep was right when he made the statement along the lines of in La Liga there you could find a Jack Wilshere at every club. 

Edited March 4, 20242 yr by Sconnie Blue

1 minute ago, Sconnie Blue said:

It was no better than any other youth player at any club relishing the first few matches of first team football. 

Think during that time, any English midfielder with a bit of technical ability was massively overhyped, similar to Jack Wilshere. Pep was right when he made the statement along the lines of in La Liga there were like 5 Jack Wilshere's at every club. 

f**k me aren't we allowed any semblance of joy on here these days or is gloom and doom now compulsory ? 😂 

3 minutes ago, Sexyfootball said:

f**k me aren't we allowed any semblance of joy on here these days or is gloom and doom now compulsory ? 😂 

Mate I thought McEachran would be our Xavi 😂

I was envisioning a future midfield three of Ramires, McEachran, and Romeu. 

Edited March 4, 20242 yr by Sconnie Blue

1 minute ago, Sconnie Blue said:

Mate I thought McEachran would be our Xavi 😂

I was envisioning a future midfield three of Ramires, McEachran, and Romeu. 

Phew ... for a minute there I thought the US Government must be lacing your Wisconsin water with depressant drugs LOL

5 minutes ago, Sconnie Blue said:

Mate I thought McEachran would be our Xavi 😂

At some point I was convinced that Miroslav Stoch was the second coming of Maradona. Today I can't be bothered looking up where he plays 😅

Edited March 4, 20242 yr by yaz

3 minutes ago, JM7 said:

Josh McCeachran was great hope of the academy wasn’t he. 
 

I think what a lot of the posts have been saying is that the players we’ve signed have hit some sort of purple patch at their previous clubs and have been signed on that on that promise. Unfortunately, the promise doesn’t always come true. 

I agree. I think a number of these players have had the opportunity to play at a senior level earlier simply due to the lack of strength in depth of the clubs across their leagues. So the top of the Brazilian league may have clubs comparable to some of those from Europe, but the bottom part of the same league has clubs that are barely Conference standard here.

I recently watched a YouTube video interview with Chris Robinson, Chelsea Head scout for 12 years, who detailed how difficult it is for players to find a way through here and how the U18, U21, U23 leagues are largely pointless. They only really stand a chance by getting a decent loan as very few players stay at the clubs and get through the system now. So with how difficult it is for lads to get through our own academy set up and into the first team it is a little unlikely that there is a batch of youngsters all the same age in similar leagues and clubs all breaking through at the same time. 

Seems a bit of fresh face syndrome to me. I like the look of David Washington and he may well end up being a prodigious talent. But from what i have seen from the internet highlights of our youth games he is no more a star that Ronnie Stutter or Tyrique George. Similarly Michael Holding looks like a real talent and seems to have everything that Andrey Santos has got. All well and good having data driven scouting and recruitment, as long as our existing players are also included in the analysis so we don't go on a change for changes sake merry go round.

 

3 minutes ago, WhiteWall said:

I agree. I think a number of these players have had the opportunity to play at a senior level earlier simply due to the lack of strength in depth of the clubs across their leagues. So the top of the Brazilian league may have clubs comparable to some of those from Europe, but the bottom part of the same league has clubs that are barely Conference standard here.

I recently watched a YouTube video interview with Chris Robinson, Chelsea Head scout for 12 years, who detailed how difficult it is for players to find a way through here and how the U18, U21, U23 leagues are largely pointless. They only really stand a chance by getting a decent loan as very few players stay at the clubs and get through the system now. So with how difficult it is for lads to get through our own academy set up and into the first team it is a little unlikely that there is a batch of youngsters all the same age in similar leagues and clubs all breaking through at the same time. 

Seems a bit of fresh face syndrome to me. I like the look of David Washington and he may well end up being a prodigious talent. But from what i have seen from the internet highlights of our youth games he is no more a star that Ronnie Stutter or Tyrique George. Similarly Michael Holding looks like a real talent and seems to have everything that Andrey Santos has got. All well and good having data driven scouting and recruitment, as long as our existing players are also included in the analysis so we don't go on a change for changes sake merry go round.

 

Used to see similar behaviour in my corporate, who would pay thousands of pounds to recruitment companies to bring in "top talent", which would then turn out to be total crap and leave within a year, and be replaced by someone who was already in the company and ten times more productive ... and extremely cheap in comparison to even the salary paid to the "talent", let alone when all the agency fees were factored in ... standard corporate behaviour I guess !

16 minutes ago, Sconnie Blue said:

It was no better or worse than any other youth player at any club relishing the first few minutes of first team football. Think during that time any English midfielder with a bit of technical ability was massively overhyped, similar to Jack Wilshere. Pep was right when he made the statement along the lines of in La Liga there were like 5 Jack Wilshere's at every club. 

Think that's a bit disingenuous to the reality of life in the academy system actually. Trust me nothing was overhyped here and there were always 5 or more players of equal or better ability here as well. My lad is a keeper, so maybe slightly different, but he still had to see off 11 others directly competing against him during his time in the system and he still didn't make it. And unlike today, i had to release him. His club notified me and i had to break it to him. Its always been bloody competitive and unfair here, same as anywhere else. I am sure many on here have similar stories.

9 minutes ago, WhiteWall said:

I Similarly Michael Holding looks like a real talent and seems to have everything that Andrey Santos has got. 

Pretty good fast bowler too LOL.

Lots of rumours that Poch is dead man walking. If we know that, then he will definitely know that as well. 

Personally, I have mixed feelings on it. I like him but I have to say, I expected a little more. I thought Poch would really bring it all together. Injuries have probably cost him I think. 
 

I really don’t want De Zerbi, another Brighton fraud. One thing is for sure, we won’t have first pick of the managers. That will go to Liverpool, Bayern etc. 

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2024/mar/04/chelsea-consider-amorim-and-de-zerbi-to-replace-mauricio-pochettino

32 minutes ago, JM7 said:

Lots of rumours that Poch is dead man walking. If we know that, then he will definitely know that as well. 

Personally, I have mixed feelings on it. I like him but I have to say, I expected a little more. I thought Poch would really bring it all together. Injuries have probably cost him I think. 
 

I really don’t want De Zerbi, another Brighton fraud. One thing is for sure, we won’t have first pick of the managers. That will go to Liverpool, Bayern etc. 

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2024/mar/04/chelsea-consider-amorim-and-de-zerbi-to-replace-mauricio-pochettino

Liverpool or Bayern will probably snap up Xabi Alonso

 

Apparently Pep reccomended De Zerbi to Barcelona, so they might get him first. Disagree with him being a fraud, there's only 1-2 Brighton players that would start for us, yet they're still competing for a Europa League spot 2 years in a row

 

Hopefully two seasons of mid table mediocrity haven't hurt our pulling power