1 hour ago, nonotnowjim said:

For him, it was an opportunity missed.
 

 

That's way too harsh, he's just returned to the squad after a long time out, he came on help cement the game, Tommy probably told him to come deep and get involved, he had to do a job, and the job was done. To expect any more is totally unrealistic.

Yeah I don't think we can judge Tammy on yesterday's involvement, you need games to get that match sharpness.

I'm hoping he's still the player that was so good at the start of last season, he looked and played so good.

1 hour ago, coco said:

That's way too harsh, he's just returned to the squad after a long time out, he came on help cement the game, Tommy probably told him to come deep and get involved, he had to do a job, and the job was done. To expect any more is totally unrealistic.

I didn't expect anymore from him...

...But it's probably a safe assumption that a player who wants to push for first team football would have expected more from himself.

Perhaps TT did ask him to go out there and simply be a number - but for player who wants to fight his way back into the managers first team plans, he was pretty anonymous. 

47 minutes ago, Malcolm9 said:

Yeah I don't think we can judge Tammy on yesterday's involvement, you need games to get that match sharpness.

 

I fully agree, and this is exactly why those arguing for him to be given a chance should rethink what they are asking for. 

We cannot, at the business end of the season, give freebies to players who are not up to speed and who need a run of games in order to be sharp and contribute to the team.

If Tammy can't come off the bench and make an impact (due to match sharpness as you have suggested), then it is wholly unrealistic to expect Tuchel to start him and give him significant game time, in order to build up that sharpness, at this time of the season. 

Edited May 2, 20215 yr by nonotnowjim

18 minutes ago, nonotnowjim said:

 

Perhaps TT did ask him to go out there and simply be a number -

You're' very derogatory to a player that deserves more credit for doing a job for his manager, TT's hard work ethic has been drummed into him and all the players, that much is evident,  TT will be happy with Tammy's effort yesterday.

1 hour ago, coco said:

You're' very derogatory to a player that deserves more credit for doing a job for his manager, TT's hard work ethic has been drummed into him and all the players, that much is evident,  TT will be happy with Tammy's effort yesterday.

Perhaps. Perhaps not. I guess we will see if TT was happy by Tammys game time in forthcoming games.

If TT was happy with tammys output, then I expect he will get similar opportunities than what he had against Fulham. If TT wasn’t happy, maybe he won’t get another opportunity.

 

4 hours ago, nonotnowjim said:

I didn't expect much - as Tammy has not delivered much for a while, admittedly as he has not had the opportunity to do so. However what I expected is irrelevant...

A couple of weeks ago when he had just returned from injury, people were crying out for him to get selected. I said then that nothing comes for free, and he has to work hard, train well, and then take his opportunity to make a difference and stand out when the chance came.

Tuchel also said similar, paraphrasing it went something like "it's hard for him to get back into the team as it's near the end of the season, so he needs to be patient, work hard, and deliver to the high stand we and he wants when he gets the opportunity ".

I fully accept that it was not easy to make a difference or contribute in a meaningful way yesterday. As I said in my post, the game was done, we were in cruise control and simply looking to see out the match. Most players coming on in those circumstances would struggle.

Unfortunately Tammy doesn't have the luxury of excuses. He has to bust a gut to stand out at every opportunity he has - and yesterday he was anonymous. He his little to try and stand out. There was zero urgency on display to try and shine. He was, by the look of his display, content to simple be a number on the pitch, happy to be that fresh pair of legs. Simply put, he did nothing that would make TT sit up, take notice and justify giving him more time. 

If Tammy wants more game time, then he has to contribute more than he did yesterday, whatever the difficulties or complexities of the match in which he is playing. 
 

For him, it was an opportunity missed.
 

 

Abraham has been back alot longer than a couple of weeks, the reason Abraham isnt match fit is because of TT himself, Abraham wasnt even on the bench let alone given 30mins at the end of the game to build up his fitness for quite a while now. 

Its pretty clear Abraham isnt rated by TT, there's nothing wrong with that. If it was certain other players they would have been straight in the first team, although Tuchels quote is true there is abit of bs about it too. What was the reason for the lack of PL minutes before Abraham got injured? We have seen it in other cases like CHO that TT treats younger players one way and older players another, again it's no surprise as his expected to bring instant success and his own personal success isnt judged on bringing through youngsters.

That second half yesterday was awful so apart from lots of running there is nothing else Abraham could do. Players know already if they are off in the summer and Abraham would score plenty of PL goals for another club, it's the reason people have wanted Abraham to be given some more gametime plus the team struggles to score.

15 minutes ago, Ernie_blue said:

What was the reason for the lack of PL minutes before Abraham got injured? We have seen it in other cases like CHO that TT treats younger players one way and older players another, 

If that's the case then why has Giroud's game time gone through the floor aswell?

Just now, Argo said:

If that's the case then why has Giroud's game time gone through the floor aswell?

That's a good point, but I've only seen CHO being subbed when brought on. Jorginho lasted 72mins against West Brom, we all know if that's CHO or Gilmour then there off at halftime. If TT really rated Abraham and wanted him involved then you would bring him on against Palace for example when your 3 nil up at halftime to build his fitness up. The  Brighton game was 0-0 but god knows where Abraham was. Just 2 examples of how easy it is to build a players fitness up if they are actually a part of a squad. If that's certain other players then they most likely start let alone build up there fitness so the reason Abraham is nowhere near match fit is TT himself.

3 minutes ago, Ernie_blue said:

Gilmour then there off at halftime.

Gilmour had an horrible first half yesterday and finished the entire 90 minutes. So what you are saying is simple not true.

2 minutes ago, Sindre said:

Gilmour had an horrible first half yesterday and finished the entire 90 minutes. So what you are saying is simple not true.

So you think if Gilmour or CHO played the way Jorginho did in the first half which was actually worse then they play 72mins?

2 minutes ago, Ernie_blue said:

So you think if Gilmour or CHO played the way Jorginho did in the first half which was actually worse then they play 72mins?

I don't see why not.

Gilmour was as much of a liabilty for us in the first half yesterday as Jorginho was against WBA. Difference being that our defence bailed Gilmour out yesterday while they also had a day off against WBA.

8 minutes ago, Sindre said:

I don't see why not.

Gilmour was as much of a liabilty for us in the first half yesterday as Jorginho was against WBA. Difference being that our defence bailed Gilmour out yesterday while they also had a day off against WBA.

Both games are completely different anyway, against west brom we are 2-1 down and have 10 men and Jorginho contributing to all of it. He deserved to be taken off and I have no doubt if that's a younger player you wont see him come out for the second half. The Fulham game we are 1 nil up and 2 nil after 50mins and game over, there was no way Gilmour is being taken off in those circumstances, you would actually be crazy to bring on Kante and Jorginho with Real in midweek and risking your best player was very risky.

6 minutes ago, Ernie_blue said:

Both games are completely different anyway, against west brom we are 2-1 down and have 10 men and Jorginho contributing to all of it. He deserved to be taken off and I have no doubt if that's a younger player you wont see him come out for the second half. The Fulham game we are 1 nil up and 2 nil after 50mins and game over, there was no way Gilmour is being taken off in those circumstances, you would actually be crazy to bring on Kante and Jorginho with Real in midweek and risking your best player was very risky.

Sure, we can agree to disagree.

My take is that the whole argument that Tuchel treats the young lads differently is wrong first and foremost and secondly very tiresome as well.

On 02/05/2021 at 02:19, reparto corse said:

So how come they have surpassed the Bundesliga again and are now in 3rd place based on the UEFA coefficient (which is based on the succuess teams are having in Europa League and Champions League)? And Ligue 1 is a total farmers league that has literally ONE good team and that's it. 

Because the big teams (Juve and the Milans) are actually pretty good defensively by any standard, but they are light-years ahead of the rest of their league. Their problem in Europe is their attack and midfield are well-below the standards of the other top clubs.

Werner and Havertz's struggles are showing that the defensive gap between the top-tier (EPL, La Liga) and the second tier is growing larger. La Liga and EPL have a genuinely formidable middle-tier that are competitive in their own right without ever having a realistic shot at the title, whereas the second-tier in other leagues is ripe for stat-padding.

 

On 02/05/2021 at 01:11, Gol15 said:

I think that the World Cup definitely has the best players in the world involved and there had been national teams that totally relied on the team spirit and tactics in order to overcome their lack of superstars and it worked in many cases and let's not forget that CL football can miss out on great players that would get discovered at the WC. It's at least equally hard to win the WC as it is to win the CL, Messi and Ronaldo for example never scored a goal in the knockout stages of the World Cup despite playing for countries that have a good tradition and good players.

I think we need to separate competitiveness from quality. You can have a competitive league (where many teams have an equitable shot at winning) which is low-quality, and a quality league that is non-competitive.

International tournaments have been growing steadily more defensive (with Russia's WC being an exception) while leagues become more open, and even the Champions' League being much more attacking now than it was 15 years ago. The big change is that solely defensive football is no longer capable of winning a league at club level while it remains a viable tactic in cup tournaments and is the default at international level. Couple these tactical inclinations with the unavoidable fact that players are at their physical nadir at the end of long seasons, international football just cannot compete with the club game.

It makes for an enjoyable spectacle at times but ultimately it is a lower standard of football, and performances at international level do not carry the same weight they used to when trying to predict performance at club level.

Not sure one should dwell too much over those "tiers" because by that reasoning the English national squad should have been just that much better than it was for a very long time. The top four leagues all play quite differently everything considered so it's quite natural that a new player, especially the very young ones nowadays, need some time to adapt their playstyle. How long did Gündogan need? And he was world-class at Dortmund already. I'd argue that a lot of players from the EPL, top players too , would struggle at first in the PL becaues of how much more technical that league is. Put Messi into the EPL and I do think he'd need some time to adapt a bit as well.

 

I read/heard someone say last week or so that the EPL is nowadays probably the most defensive league, especially as Italy isn't playing any Cattenaccio anymore, and that may play a role. It's the most physical one, regarding amount of games to play, no pause during winter as well as regarding how matches are played - France would be rather similiar to that with PSG being the big exception.

 

 

Edited May 5, 20215 yr by weetee

3 hours ago, SydneyChelsea said:

I think we need to separate competitiveness from quality. You can have a competitive league (where many teams have an equitable shot at winning) which is low-quality, and a quality league that is non-competitive.

International tournaments have been growing steadily more defensive (with Russia's WC being an exception) while leagues become more open, and even the Champions' League being much more attacking now than it was 15 years ago. The big change is that solely defensive football is no longer capable of winning a league at club level while it remains a viable tactic in cup tournaments and is the default at international level. Couple these tactical inclinations with the unavoidable fact that players are at their physical nadir at the end of long seasons, international football just cannot compete with the club game.

It makes for an enjoyable spectacle at times but ultimately it is a lower standard of football, and performances at international level do not carry the same weight they used to when trying to predict performance at club level.

Well to be fair the group stages of the CL just like any good league also have a whole bunch of low end teams that can't match the top 15-16 teams in most terms. The CL just like most top leagues in Europe ends up with almost the same top 8 teams almost every year and the World Cup is similar to that, the best football nations in the few most recent World Cups have been mainly from Europe + one or two teams from South America that produces a good amount of quality players, there is no secret that France has produced a lot of great players in the last years I said to many before the 2018 WC that if France doesn't win it they will win the next one because they got massive talent.

The late stages of the World Cup include the best players that would meet each other in the CL's late stages as well so I see no difference there, if anything a smaller nation can show a new player to the world that might not have had the opportunity to be in a top club but the quality can still be right there at the top so I don't see how it's a lower standard even if national teams focus on defense more, Pep was buying mostly defensive players and now he has the best team in the league and Tuchel mainly focused on improving our own defense as well so being more defensive doesn't equal having less quality.

3 hours ago, SydneyChelsea said:

Because the big teams (Juve and the Milans) are actually pretty good defensively by any standard, but they are light-years ahead of the rest of their league. Their problem in Europe is their attack and midfield are well-below the standards of the other top clubs.

Werner and Havertz's struggles are showing that the defensive gap between the top-tier (EPL, La Liga) and the second tier is growing larger. La Liga and EPL have a genuinely formidable middle-tier that are competitive in their own right without ever having a realistic shot at the title, whereas the second-tier in other leagues is ripe for stat-padding.

Yes, but the comparison was between Serie A, Bundesliga and the French Ligue 1. Obviously La Liga and the EPL are way stronger than any of these leagues. 

My point is that Serie A is not worse than the Bundesliga and the French Ligue 1. Quite on the contrary, the French Ligue 1 is actually quite a few levels below Serie A and the Bundesliga has dipped in quality over the last years as well since Dortmund has fallen off massively from their Tuchel  and Klopp days.

The Bundesliga is in a very poor spot anyway as RB Leipzig which is probably the 2nd best team in Germany just lost their best CB and coach to Bayern. Meaning Bayern's dominance will not end any time soon and likely become even bigger. It's like Dortmund will lose several key players in the summer as well. It's hard to take a league serious where only one team can win and all the 2nd tier teams lose key players to Bayern every summer. 

Just looking at this year's CL and Europa league results confirms this, there is not even one German team in the Europa League round of 16. Bayer Leverkusen is the only German team that made it to the round of 32 but got eliminated by Young Boys Bern. That's just pathetic. Exact same scenario applies to the French Ligue 1, Lille was the only team in the round of 32 and got eliminated by Ajax. 

There was a photo going around last night from the dressing room,  a players group pic with everyone joyous, smiling  and celebrating.  All except Tammy who positioned himself at the front , sat there, flexing his muscles. Screams me me me. Annoyed me 🤣🤷‍♂️

11 minutes ago, nonotnowjim said:

There was a photo going around last night from the dressing room,  a players group pic with everyone joyous, smiling  and celebrating.  All except Tammy who positioned himself at the front , sat there, flexing his muscles. Screams me me me. Annoyed me 🤣🤷‍♂️

I'm beginning to think Tammy must have stolen your car or slept with your wife Jim.

15 minutes ago, just said:

I'm beginning to think Tammy must have stolen your car or slept with your wife Jim.

Would not put it past him....wife would be a likelier option, as less opportunity for him to fall down doing that. 😂

On 05/05/2021 at 14:43, SydneyChelsea said:

Because the big teams (Juve and the Milans) are actually pretty good defensively by any standard, but they are light-years ahead of the rest of their league. Their problem in Europe is their attack and midfield are well-below the standards of the other top clubs.

Werner and Havertz's struggles are showing that the defensive gap between the top-tier (EPL, La Liga) and the second tier is growing larger. La Liga and EPL have a genuinely formidable middle-tier that are competitive in their own right without ever having a realistic shot at the title, whereas the second-tier in other leagues is ripe for stat-padding.

 

I think we need to separate competitiveness from quality. You can have a competitive league (where many teams have an equitable shot at winning) which is low-quality, and a quality league that is non-competitive.

International tournaments have been growing steadily more defensive (with Russia's WC being an exception) while leagues become more open, and even the Champions' League being much more attacking now than it was 15 years ago. The big change is that solely defensive football is no longer capable of winning a league at club level while it remains a viable tactic in cup tournaments and is the default at international level. Couple these tactical inclinations with the unavoidable fact that players are at their physical nadir at the end of long seasons, international football just cannot compete with the club game.

It makes for an enjoyable spectacle at times but ultimately it is a lower standard of football, and performances at international level do not carry the same weight they used to when trying to predict performance at club level.

Agree in large part, especially about WCs being played at a much lower standard.

WCs aren't the best platform for players to showcase their attacking abilities because it is far more difficult to coordinate attack than it is to coordinate defense. Why has this Belgium team full of stars always flattered to deceive? Because they never have had the time to learn to play as a unit. Why did France win the world cup with Pogba in the starting line up? Because they defended well and largely relied on individual brilliance. Give other teams time to adapt and they will find ways to make sure that Pogba's influence comes down to near zero. WC football is exciting and competitive but is inevitably of poor quality because there isn't enough time for players to learn to execute complex plans together.

21 hours ago, reparto corse said:

Yes, but the comparison was between Serie A, Bundesliga and the French Ligue 1. Obviously La Liga and the EPL are way stronger than any of these leagues. 

My point is that Serie A is not worse than the Bundesliga and the French Ligue 1. Quite on the contrary, the French Ligue 1 is actually quite a few levels below Serie A and the Bundesliga has dipped in quality over the last years as well since Dortmund has fallen off massively from their Tuchel  and Klopp days.

The Bundesliga is in a very poor spot anyway as RB Leipzig which is probably the 2nd best team in Germany just lost their best CB and coach to Bayern. Meaning Bayern's dominance will not end any time soon and likely become even bigger. It's like Dortmund will lose several key players in the summer as well. It's hard to take a league serious where only one team can win and all the 2nd tier teams lose key players to Bayern every summer. 

Just looking at this year's CL and Europa league results confirms this, there is not even one German team in the Europa League round of 16. Bayer Leverkusen is the only German team that made it to the round of 32 but got eliminated by Young Boys Bern. That's just pathetic. Exact same scenario applies to the French Ligue 1, Lille was the only team in the round of 32 and got eliminated by Ajax. 

Yeah 100% agree, I realise we are actually arguing the same point but perhaps splitting hairs. I just think Serie A is on the same level, because the defensive quality has absolutely nosedived compared to even a few years ago. A lot of the smaller teams are now playing far more open, attacking football (Napoli, Roma, Atalanta etc) which is great for the entertainment stakes but doesn't necessarily reflect quality.

Serie A has been averaging over 3 goals/game for the last couple of years, just like the Bundesliga, with Ligue Un being relatively miserly in comparison! I wonder if this is a natural consequence of tactical shifts as well as teams investing their meagre funds more on attacking players than defenders. 

 

4 hours ago, nonotnowjim said:

There was a photo going around last night from the dressing room,  a players group pic with everyone joyous, smiling  and celebrating.  All except Tammy who positioned himself at the front , sat there, flexing his muscles. Screams me me me. Annoyed me 🤣🤷‍♂️

Give the lad a break. He's probably not even flexing his muscles, that's their relaxed state 

5 hours ago, nonotnowjim said:

There was a photo going around last night from the dressing room,  a players group pic with everyone joyous, smiling  and celebrating.  All except Tammy who positioned himself at the front , sat there, flexing his muscles. Screams me me me. Annoyed me 🤣🤷‍♂️

Jesus wept drop the agenda mate, your'e starting to look like that weirdo we got coming on here just to tell us all that Frank is a PE teacher.

Everyone is clinching fists in the picture, everyone is 'striking a pose', Tammy does a good job of it if you ask me.