1 minute ago, Argo said:

Because one fluke CL win when the team is not exactly the same, if Liverpool had title winning results and clean sheets galore with him playing but bottom half table results and lots of leaked goals without him then we can make the comparison. As for Moses, had he carried on his level from that season he would be a top class wingback but unfortunately he reverted to type.

For me there's a direct correlation between his selection and the team performances, his pace alone scares teams into dropping their line.

Another example would be Roberto Firmino, he will be a lot harder for Liverpool to replace than Mane and even Salah but doesn't get half the credit those two and even Jota get because he doesn't have the numbers.

Would any team in the world take Firmino over Kane, peak Aguero or Haaland? The simple answer is no. If we could take Kane, Haaland or Firmino - what order would you take them in?

6 minutes ago, EdinburghBlue said:

I disagree, as I said it’s all hypothetical because you then need to take in to account rotation in other positions. For example, Barnsley we had Emerson, Alonso, Zouma, Ziyech, Kepa & Gilmour in the starting 11. 6 of the 10 players Tammy played with in that game aren’t regular starters in a game like last night for example. That’s why I’m saying team metrics are stupid for an individual as it’s also heavily weighted by the players they have around them.

I think it's important to notice that when Tammy started under Tuchel, Werner also started as well. So when we were wasteful Werner was a part of it, when we didn't create much Werner was a part of it. This season only Mendy and Mount played more minutes than Werner.

IMO the biggest factor is that Tuchel improved our defense, not the fact that Werner kept playing because he has been largely the same as he was under Lampard, he's not scoring that many goals but he's making assists. Fans weren't happy with Werner under Lampard and at that time it was easier to score against us, now it's harder to score against us so Werner's impact in attack is suddenly seen in a different light because overall we're making good results.

Rudiger didn't play under Lampard for example but now he has been involved and in our 4 losses under Tuchel, Rudiger didn't play in 2 of them and against Porto we won in the first leg anyway so if I'm to point out one player that was an important factor to our improved results it would be Rudiger and not Werner because we're mainly a better defensive team.

19 minutes ago, EdinburghBlue said:

Would any team in the world take Firmino over Kane, peak Aguero or Haaland? The simple answer is no. If we could take Kane, Haaland or Firmino - what order would you take them in?

We don't have WC wingers like Liverpool does who score loads of goals - which Firminho is instrumental to - so he'd be last regarding our situation. Would Liverpool switch Haaland for Firminho in a heartbeat? I wouldn't be so sure about that.

I don't see anybody, within this forum and outside, claiming Werner being a no.9 though. He actually benefits a lot if he plays next to one. That's why he isn't really competing with Tammy - Tammy is actually competing with the whole system that doesn't have a spot for a clear cut no.9 as of now. And neither he nor Giroud are THAT good to make TT rethink and restructure his whole approach.

Edited May 19, 20215 yr by weetee

11 minutes ago, EdinburghBlue said:

Would any team in the world take Firmino over Kane, peak Aguero or Haaland? The simple answer is no. If we could take Kane, Haaland or Firmino - what order would you take them in?

For us for what we need next season? Kane. In Liverpool's system an out and out striker in his place in the last three years and Mane and Salah are not even half as effective. His ability to drop deep and draw defenders is what has given those two the space to wreck havoc.

I mean, Salah and Mane have had public bust ups in the past due to wanting to one up each other on the stats, imagine not only adding another player wanting to operate in the same way but said player replacing the pair's prime creator.

33 minutes ago, weetee said:

We don't have WC wingers like Liverpool does who score loads of goals - which Firminho is instrumental to - so he'd be last regarding our situation. Would Liverpool switch Haaland for Firminho in a heartbeat? I wouldn't be so sure about that.

I don't see anybody, within this forum and outside, claiming Werner being a no.9 though. He actually benefits a lot if he plays next to one. That's why he isn't really competing with Tammy - Tammy is actually competing with the whole system that doesn't have a spot for a clear cut no.9 as of now. And neither he nor Giroud are THAT good to make TT rethink and restructure his whole approach.

But he’s playing as a number 9 and that’s the problem. As you say we don’t have WC wingers so we can’t get away with that & it’s a large part of why we look toothless IMO. If he was playing in beside Mason with Giroud/Tammy as a 9(preferably the latter due to mobility) I wouldn’t have an issue - it might even have him stay onside every once in a while. I’ve not seen enough from either Ziyech or Pulisic to justify the game time they get in that position from the start this season. I think we’d be a lot more dangerous with Werner just off the striker with Mount (basically where Christian was yesterday). 

18 minutes ago, Argo said:

For us for what we need next season? Kane. In Liverpool's system an out and out striker in his place in the last three years and Mane and Salah are not even half as effective. His ability to drop deep and draw defenders is what has given those two the space to wreck havoc.

I mean, Salah and Mane have had public bust ups in the past due to wanting to one up each other on the stats, imagine not only adding another player wanting to operate in the same way but said player replacing the pair's prime creator.

You’re both entitled to your opinions of course but for me, Klopp and Liverpool would bite your hand off for Haaland. I’m confident they wouldn’t think twice about Firmino if they thought they could afford him and he’d come.

1 hour ago, weetee said:

Wasn't there a stat some time ago that showed the impact of with/without Jorgi playing? I'd like to see something like that for Werner (but am way too lazy to do it myself) because I suspect the same as you.

Of course he's some kind of Donald Duck right now but still: he's the guy that shoots the offside goals, the handball goals, misses crazy sitters and get's pens (or not) and assists quite a few as well too - not to mention his extreme work-rate which also contributes to our defensive stability. I just don't see a Tammy/Werner switch as the obvious thing to do, far from. If anything, Tuchel would have to abandon his back 3/5 system and play with Tammy alongside Werner, which I could perfectly see btw. But that ship has sailed long ago and I'd say rightly so too. Next season we'll see but barring any catastrophies within the last two games I'd be amazed if Tuchel would permanently switch his system come next season.

Pretty certain he won’t use that 3-4-3 if he gets his players in the summer. 

11 minutes ago, ducavis said:

Pretty certain he won’t use that 3-4-3 if he gets his players in the summer. 

Could be. But I wouldn't bet on that. Because a) he'd need quite a lot of really, really good signings to b) establish a system that would be better than the one he plays now which brought him two finals and second after City in the league. I'm not saying he'll always play 343 no matter what but keep in mind we have a Euro (Copa too?) coming up and not that much of a preseason once again.

 

I can see him play 433 in theory but the squad would need some serious adjustments, right after having quite a good run all in all since Tuchel came in. Depends on what players are actually available though of course.

19 minutes ago, EdinburghBlue said:

But he’s playing as a number 9 and that’s the problem. As you say we don’t have WC wingers so we can’t get away with that & it’s a large part of why we look toothless IMO. If he was playing in beside Mason with Giroud/Tammy as a 9(preferably the latter due to mobility) I wouldn’t have an issue - it might even have him stay onside every once in a while. I’ve not seen enough from either Ziyech or Pulisic to justify the game time they get in that position from the start this season. I think we’d be a lot more dangerous with Werner just off the striker with Mount (basically where Christian was yesterday). 

You’re both entitled to your opinions of course but for me, Klopp and Liverpool would bite your hand off for Haaland. I’m confident they wouldn’t think twice about Firmino if they thought they could afford him and he’d come.

Timo plays all over the pitch though (bit of an exaggeration but he even ran back up to our corner flagyesterday, in full sprint mode, got his man and cleared the ball = can you imagine Tammy being able to do that?). Sometimes he drops down a bit, sometimes he comes from the side/flank and mostly is constantly changing positions - supporting Pulisic (or Ziyech) with his runs and assists. He's way more versatile and mobile than Tammy and can press the opponent a good deal, that's why TT keeps playing him.

 

re Haaland: obviously he's an elite player with his best years still to come so every single club should think about signing him if he's available. But to make that comparison fair you'd have to imagine Liverpool in their prime with their prime Firminho exchanging him for Haaland and not after they basically won everything and quite probably are a bit burnt out or just need some changes in the squad to keep the mentality sharp. But I think it makes sense that they are more often than not linked with Mbappé (or even Werner before) than with Haaland.

56 minutes ago, weetee said:

Timo plays all over the pitch though (bit of an exaggeration but he even ran back up to our corner flagyesterday, in full sprint mode, got his man and cleared the ball = can you imagine Tammy being able to do that?). Sometimes he drops down a bit, sometimes he comes from the side/flank and mostly is constantly changing positions - supporting Pulisic (or Ziyech) with his runs and assists. He's way more versatile and mobile than Tammy and can press the opponent a good deal, that's why TT keeps playing him.

 

re Haaland: obviously he's an elite player with his best years still to come so every single club should think about signing him if he's available. But to make that comparison fair you'd have to imagine Liverpool in their prime with their prime Firminho exchanging him for Haaland and not after they basically won everything and quite probably are a bit burnt out or just need some changes in the squad to keep the mentality sharp. But I think it makes sense that they are more often than not linked with Mbappé (or even Werner before) than with Haaland.

you’re kind of proving my point there, no I can’t imagine Tammy doing that - nor can I imagine him missing the whole host of sitters Timo has fired over the bar, wide or right at the keeper. They’re different types of players no disputing that but when you’re lacking goals and refuse to play your top scorer and best goalscorer at the club - questions are going to be asked.

 

They’re not linked with Haaland because there’s no chance they could afford him and the links of Mbappe to Liverpool have about as much chance of coming true as me lining up as our starting centre forward next season.

1 minute ago, EdinburghBlue said:

you’re kind of proving my point there, no I can’t imagine Tammy doing that - nor can I imagine him missing the whole host of sitters Timo has fired over the bar, wide or right at the keeper. They’re different types of players no disputing that but when you’re lacking goals and refuse to play your top scorer and best goalscorer at the club - questions are going to be asked.

 

They’re not linked with Haaland because there’s no chance they could afford him and the links of Mbappe to Liverpool have about as much chance of coming true as me lining up as our starting centre forward next season.

I think we should just agree to disagree here, which is fine. All I'm saying is that Werner isn't a "real" no.9 nor is he supposed to play like one in the current system hence Tammy - or Giroud - has a hard time to find his place. And we do create a ton of chances while we concede very little, for example because players like Werner run back at full pace and put in hard work (not saying Tammy is lazy btw, that's just not his forté) defensively. So I strongly doubt Tuchel judges his forwards by "goals/minute" and when I see the sheet above from argo by far the most games were won when Werner played while when he wasn't featured they didn't have the same win ratio - you just have a hard time to make a case that this very player should be benched a lot. I also don't understand really why there is always this focus on Werner, you could just as well take Pulisic and argue why Tammy should play instead of him. Or Havertz.

 

For the last paragraph: so they aren't linked to Haaland because they don't have the funds but they're still linked to Mbappé although they don't have the funds? btw I do think both rumors are mostly just that, rumors on the boulevard. You usually don't need three super strikers/finishers that eventually even get in their way but a balanced attack, like Benzema supported Ronaldo (or Bale), like Firminho supports Mané and Salah. Liverpool aren't desparate for scoring goals usually like we do, they have other balancing problems. But I'm out from here on, too much theory and conjecture.

 

 

2 minutes ago, weetee said:

I think we should just agree to disagree here, which is fine. All I'm saying is that Werner isn't a "real" no.9 nor is he supposed to play like one in the current system hence Tammy - or Giroud - has a hard time to find his place. And we do create a ton of chances while we concede very little, for example because players like Werner run back at full pace and put in hard work (not saying Tammy is lazy btw, that's just not his forté) defensively. So I strongly doubt Tuchel judges his forwards by "goals/minute" and when I see the sheet above from argo by far the most games were won when Werner played while when he wasn't featured they didn't have the same win ratio - you just have a hard time to make a case that this very player should be benched a lot. I also don't understand really why there is always this focus on Werner, you could just as well take Pulisic and argue why Tammy should play instead of him. Or Havertz.

 

For the last paragraph: so they aren't linked to Haaland because they don't have the funds but they're still linked to Mbappé although they don't have the funds? btw I do think both rumors are mostly just that, rumors on the boulevard. You usually don't need three super strikers/finishers that eventually even get in their way but a balanced attack, like Benzema supported Ronaldo (or Bale), like Firminho supports Mané and Salah. Liverpool aren't desparate for scoring goals usually like we do, they have other balancing problems. But I'm out from here on, too much theory and conjecture.

 

 

You’re right, it’s a waste of time discussing it. I literally did talk about Pulisic & the other wingers/AM in the previous post to you. 
 

I’ve already referenced the different games, look at the entire teams changes as opposed to just Werner. (Already posted about it above so not rewriting it)

 

show me one credible link that has any foundation that Liverpool have ever been even remotely close to singing Mbappe? When he was at Monaco maybe, but since he’s been at PSG? I’ve seen literally zero credible sources claim that was happening. Benzema has scored 22 in 33 with 8 assists btw.

1 hour ago, EdinburghBlue said:

You’re right, it’s a waste of time discussing it. I literally did talk about Pulisic & the other wingers/AM in the previous post to you. 
 

I’ve already referenced the different games, look at the entire teams changes as opposed to just Werner. (Already posted about it above so not rewriting it)

 

show me one credible link that has any foundation that Liverpool have ever been even remotely close to singing Mbappe? When he was at Monaco maybe, but since he’s been at PSG? I’ve seen literally zero credible sources claim that was happening. Benzema has scored 22 in 33 with 8 assists btw.

 

Yep, sorry I missed that about Puli. Although I'd say he had some brilliant games lately so I can understand why he gets minutes.

 

You say we look toothless but I doubt that is really the case with as many chances as we create. But we may disagree here. Just one thing is wrong imo and you keep saying that: Werner is no no.9 and he isn't played as one, I haven't seen one claiming he is nor have I read any poster saying his goal conversion is acceptable - so I think what you promote is somewhat of a new system to get a tall finisher up front to score more goals. Since the system so far rather works like a charm given the circumstances, and Timo clearly has his shares in that given the amount of minutes he played I'd rather think it questionable to start playing a poacher when we didn't the whole time. And when we did it really didn't look that great.

 

Benzema alongside Ronaldo was clearly a supportive striker. Since he is and always was an excellent striker and also played for Real Madrid in LaLiga (rather high scoring team) of course he scored a bucketload of goals back then too but the point was that they wouldn't buy one "super-striker" like Haaland on top of that because they scored their goals mostly through Ronaldo (and in theory about Bale) from the sides with a supportive striker that can distribute the ball and draw out defenders. Like Firminho does for Salah and Mané.

 

edit: also, if true, Werner got 8 pens called against him. Let's just say for the fun of it he, like most strikers, would shoot them himself he'd have about 20goals and 14assists in his first season in the prem. That would still make his conversion rate abysmal but I strongly doubt people would point fingers at him half as much as they do now and the narrative would be quite different.

Edited May 19, 20215 yr by weetee

I think we may have seen the last of him in a Chelsea shirt. I’ll be very surprised if he features in the final.

3 hours ago, dansubrosa said:

I think we may have seen the last of him in a Chelsea shirt. I’ll be very surprised if he features in the final.

He made more of a claim to start the final than Pulisic did today.

Poor Tammy:

Finishes the season as joint top scorer with Werner on 12 goals, despite only playing 17 minutes in our last 23 games !

Almost certainly won't be with us next season, but good luck to him.

At least he's a CL winner, pretty sure most of his mates in his new team won't have one. There must be a reason or two Tuchel never trusted him. Given what happened last night, I tend to trust Tuchel's judgment. We should get a good fee for Tammy, English and proven player in the league.

He'll probably be the next Ryan Bertrand. Champs winner came from Chelsea but retires with a different team.

On 29/05/2021 at 11:51, PloKoon13 said:

Poor Tammy:

As nice as that looks, very few of his goals had any impact on the outcome of the game - and aside from FA cup goals against Barnsley and Luton, he was rarely a game changer. He simply did not contribute enough, when it mattered, to justify a place in the team.

2 hours ago, Deino said:

He'll probably be the next Ryan Bertrand. Champs winner came from Chelsea but retires with a different team.

If he goes on to have half as solid a career as Berty has, then Tammy will have done well.

The first thing he should do is knuckle down and try to make a difference in games. If he put in half as much effort in trying to contribute to the team and stay in his feet, as he does to taking pictures of himself and his GF in his Lambo, then he would have a half decent chance of making an impact in games.

I almost always have a soft spot for anyone pulling on a shirt for our team. Sometimes though, for whatever reason, some can't play as well as they ought. Tammy belongs in that category. I think he'll thrive and be one of those players were in 2-3 years we say "Why did he not play like that for us?"

I'm about 70% certain that if Tammy leaves it's with a buy back option or a loan. I'm convinced we're not stupid enough to repeat past mistakes but then again we are Chelsea. I think it's best if we get him on a 2 year loan in a physical league where he has to improve his first touch and hold up play, alongside movement in the air. 

Anything below £40m to buy him out right should be scoffed at.

Given Rice is meant to be one of TT 3 targets may well be we lower his value to the 25mill West ham want to pay and chuck another 75mill at them for Declan.

Extending Giroud's contract probably ends Tammy's time with us. We have Werner, Havertz, Giroud to play that number 9 role and if reports are to be believed we are looking for a top striker. 

But I think we will loan him out. He is too much of a talent to be sold. 

On 01/06/2021 at 04:47, axman2526 said:

Given Rice is meant to be one of TT 3 targets may well be we lower his value to the 25mill West ham want to pay and chuck another 75mill at them for Declan.

I like Rice but 100m?