11 hours ago, dkw said:

Anyone who thinks a 0-0 at home to a team we are 6 points behind and need to catch to get top 4 is a good result is an idiot.

Ok Dicky that made me laugh out loud, cheers for that.

 

You do have a talent for the blunt lol

1 hour ago, Gol15 said:

You're just full of salt and agenda driven 100% of the time, the one website that I openly said multiple times that I don't care about is whoscored... You're never a balanced poster you ALWAYS post against those who you simply dislike. So please, go back to your cave now...

Well Gol, the human body contains many salts, of which sodium chloride (AKA common table salt) is the major one, making up around 0.4 per cent of the body’s weight at a concentration pretty well equivalent to that in seawater.

So a 50kg person would contain around 200g of sodium chloride – around 40 teaspoons. Since we lose salt whenever we sweat, it has to be continually replaced.

Firstly Plokoon educating you on statistics and the underlying principles, (which you decided not to reply to), and now a biology lesson. Today has really been a school day for you. Even moreso than usual.

Edited March 1, 20215 yr by just

1 hour ago, just said:

Well Gol, the human body contains many salts, of which sodium chloride (AKA common table salt) is the major one, making up around 0.4 per cent of the body’s weight at a concentration pretty well equivalent to that in seawater.

So a 50kg person would contain around 200g of sodium chloride – around 40 teaspoons. Since we lose salt whenever we sweat, it has to be continually replaced.

Firstly Plokoon educating you on statistics and the underlying principles, (which you decided not to reply to), and now a biology lesson. Today has really been a school day for you. Even moreso than usual.

You don't seem to know just how salty you are as a person... At least I'm not the kiddo like Nibs that came after the game only to say that it's good that Jorginho didn't play. Imagine if I had written first "If Jorginho had played we would have won". The level of toxicity that you guys provide in the forum is so bad, nobody comes close to your ugly posts.

I was curious how he would play with Kova as other times it has backfired yet against Utd it worked I was looking to see if Kante was man-marking BF. I think he was yet to was not obvious.

Wouldn't be surprised if Kante plays against Liverpool yet think we lose something offensively without Jorginho and would expect to see him back when we play Everton.

 

6 hours ago, PloKoon13 said:

I asked the question above 'how does one quantify an individual press'. What is pressing in a statistical context? And how can one quantify it in a meaningful way? That could be an absolutely fascinating discussion. I suppose my first question about pressing stats would be to ask - how does one separate an individual contribution to what is inherently a collaborative effort?

It seems to be one of those relatively new statistics that's cropped up in the last few years along with the the expected goals (xg) stay and others along those lines. 

It's taking something subjective and making it quantifiable. 

It means you start talking about more things as absolutes rather than allowing for subjectivity and sometimes removing the actual watching part from football. 

Take a player like Zidane as an example. Statistically, he's good but maybe not exceptional. But to say he was anything but one of the greatest ever players is a complete disservice to him. 

15 minutes ago, ForeverCarefree said:

It seems to be one of those relatively new statistics that's cropped up in the last few years along with the the expected goals (xg) stay and others along those lines. 

It's taking something subjective and making it quantifiable. 

It means you start talking about more things as absolutes rather than allowing for subjectivity and sometimes removing the actual watching part from football. 

Take a player like Zidane as an example. Statistically, he's good but maybe not exceptional. But to say he was anything but one of the greatest ever players is a complete disservice to him. 

Defensive simple stats like tackles and interceptions are not from the few last years at all.

Jorginho has been a more complete player for us than Kante in the last 2 seasons because he can do a decent job defensively and he's a better passer than Kante, this is observable during games and on paper as well.

 

8 hours ago, Strider6003 said:

I was curious how he would play with Kova as other times it has backfired yet against Utd it worked I was looking to see if Kante was man-marking BF. I think he was yet to was not obvious.

Wouldn't be surprised if Kante plays against Liverpool yet think we lose something offensively without Jorginho and would expect to see him back when we play Everton.

 

Personally I think it's pretty clear we gain a lot more with Kante offensively. He wins the ball more and much higher up the pitch. Also he runs with the ball which Jorginho can't do. Tuchel has touched upon the first point himself recently.

Also it's not like Jorginho is an offensive threat with his passing either. He doesn't have the vision or accuracy over distance. In fact in terms of producing key passes in the EPL his current stat is 0.8 per game with one assist................. Kante has the exact same figures!!!

8 hours ago, ForeverCarefree said:

It seems to be one of those relatively new statistics that's cropped up in the last few years along with the the expected goals (xg) stay and others along those lines. 

It's taking something subjective and making it quantifiable. 

XG/XP is pointless in the context of the game that's been played but it serves as an excellent foreshadower.

Just look at the table from last season with the XG/XP metrics.

https://understat.com/league/EPL/2019

That shown that Liverpool's form wasn't sustainable, City will be back this season, Spurs and Arsenal were going to get worse, Newcastle were going to battle relegation this season and our defensive woes were mainly down to Kepa. All of which have been proven spectacularly right.

Looking at it this season the things that are being suggested are United are massively overachieving, Brighton will become a challenger for the European places in the near future, Martinez really is the real deal and not a 2 month wonder and (unfortunately) City's level isn't waning anytime soon.

It does miss the odd thing (key example being West Ham's rise this season) but it's excellent at pointing out trends before they happen. If you see a team's results spectacularly outperforming their metrics they are very likely not long off a bit decline to the mean, and vice versa for a team not getting the results they should be getting.

8 hours ago, Gol15 said:

Defensive simple stats like tackles and interceptions are not from the few last years at all.

Jorginho has been a more complete player for us than Kante in the last 2 seasons because he can do a decent job defensively and he's a better passer than Kante, this is observable during games and on paper as well.

 

Funny you should say that.  I was talking to a mate about people who are deeply interested in stats and something occurred to me so I thought I would ask.  

I am genuinely interested.  Have you ever actually been to a top-class football match?

8 hours ago, Gol15 said:

Defensive simple stats like tackles and interceptions are not from the few last years at all.

Jorginho has been a more complete player for us than Kante in the last 2 seasons because he can do a decent job defensively and he's a better passer than Kante, this is observable during games and on paper as well.

I never said anything about tackles and interceptions. If you look at the quoted text from @PloKoon13 I was responding to "'how does one quantify an individual press'. What is pressing in a statistical context?". 

Pressing is a collective action and so how you atribute an individual statistic to it? 

The funniest thing about the Kante Vs Jorginho debates is it's inadvertently showing that Kovacic is now the world class untouchable in our midfield.

Edited March 2, 20215 yr by Argo

 

2 hours ago, ForeverCarefree said:

I never said anything about tackles and interceptions. If you look at the quoted text from @PloKoon13 I was responding to "'how does one quantify an individual press'. What is pressing in a statistical context?". 

Pressing is a collective action and so how you atribute an individual statistic to it? 

Seems neither one of us gets an answer to a direct question, doesn't it?

2 hours ago, Argo said:

Looking at it this season the things that are being suggested are United are massively overachieving, Brighton will become a challenger for the European places in the near future, Martinez really is the real deal and not a 2 month wonder and (unfortunately) City's level isn't waning anytime soon.

I saw an argument on Twitter somewhere that while Brighton have consistently 'underperformed' compared to their xG values, what that actually means is that they are incredibly good at creating chances which their forwards are incapable of finishing. A few people have made the argument that this isn't a measure of bad luck, but misguided coaching, or at the least tactical naïveté. 

A couple of arguments below (poor individual decision-making, lack of numbers forward, surprise cutbacks, etc.):

And this subsequent article: https://griffinftbl.medium.com/why-cant-brighton-score-446c92f35bca

Edited March 2, 20215 yr by PloKoon13

13 minutes ago, PloKoon13 said:

I saw an argument on Twitter somewhere that while Brighton have consistently 'underperformed' compared to their xG values, what that actually means is that they are incredibly good at creating chances which their forwards are incapable of finishing. A few people have made the argument that this isn't a measure of bad luck, but misguided coaching, or at the least tactical naïveté. 

A couple of arguments below (poor individual decision-making, lack of numbers forward, surprise cutbacks, etc.):

And this subsequent article: https://griffinftbl.medium.com/why-cant-brighton-score-446c92f35bca

That's a fair point but if for argument sake (I don't watch enough to give a definitive judgement) it's a combination of Maupay sh*tting the bed and the coaching on the crucial moment lacking then that is also relitevely easily fixable by finding a player who handles those moments better and getting a specialist coach in.

Could argue it's a similar situation to our defensive woes that have gone from one extreme to the other with two simple adjustments (Kepa out of the goal and Antony Barry into the coaching setup).

Brighton really is a baffling team. They play like a top 6 team yet they couldn’t score to save their lives. They need to keep Potter, he’s doing something right they just need better strikers!

24 minutes ago, Argo said:

That's a fair point but if for argument sake (I don't watch enough to give a definitive judgement) it's a combination of Maupay sh*tting the bed and the coaching on the crucial moment lacking then that is also relitevely easily fixable by finding a player who handles those moments better and getting a specialist coach in.

Sort of like having a centre forward who in 127 league games for their previous team had scored 78 and assisted 32 goals. 

Just get the right coach in (maybe someone who's coached in the same league as the previous team was based in) and Robert's your Father's brother, watch the goals start rolling in.... Oh... wait. 

8 minutes ago, ForeverCarefree said:

Sort of like having a centre forward who in 127 league games for their previous team had scored 78 and assisted 32 goals. 

Just get the right coach in (maybe someone who's coached in the same league as the previous team was based in) and Robert's your Father's brother, watch the goals start rolling in.... Oh... wait. 

The point I was making I said if Brighton's problems going forward are similar to ours defensively last season (ala one main culprit player and lack of specialist coach for the finer details) then it won't be a surprise to see vast improvement if/when they bring in the suitable upgrades, as what happens to us when we brought in Barry and Mendy. I strongly believed that our defensive options were/are a lot better than were made to look last season and it appears as I've been vindicated with that. 

Our attacking problems are slightly more complicated as last season we didn't have the consistent quality up top to rely on week on week and now on paper we do but they are (hopefully because the alternative isn't worth thinking about) taking their sweet time to adjust (Werner, Ziyech, Havertz), lost the plot (Pulisic) or are blowing a bit hot and cold (CHO, Tammy). The only player giving us consistent product is Mount and to an extent Giroud.

It's why I backed the decision to go big on the forward players instead of defense as many wanted, we'd still be "rubbish" defensively this season even with Thiago Silva had Kepa or Willy still been in the nets.

4 hours ago, Argo said:

The funniest thing about the Kante Vs Jorginho debates is it's inadvertently showing that Kovacic is now the world class untouchable in our midfield.

Yet nobody wanted him two years ago. Worth bearing this in mind in relation to Havertz, Werner et al. The time often required to adapt is greatly underappreciated.

Again - I like both Kante and Jorginho in different ways, and the attributes of each have been well articulated by other posters. 
 

For some reason (I desperately need a break from work and homeschooling maybe?) I’ve decided to bang the drum AGAIN on the midfield pairing - and since there’s lots of talk of statistics - the bogus use of statistics regarding the relative success of Kova-Jorginho vs Kova-Kante. We may indeed have seen more success with the former, but this is still probably coincidental and statistically meaningless. In all those games there were other factors and the sample size is still very much in the “nothing to see here” zone. In coin-flipping terms, very roughly - we’ve flipped a coin ten times and heads (Kova-Jorginho) has come up 7 times out of 10. 

19 minutes ago, Dean said:

Again - I like both Kante and Jorginho in different ways, and the attributes of each have been well articulated by other posters. 
 

For some reason (I desperately need a break from work and homeschooling maybe?) I’ve decided to bang the drum AGAIN on the midfield pairing - and since there’s lots of talk of statistics - the bogus use of statistics regarding the relative success of Kova-Jorginho vs Kova-Kante. We may indeed have seen more success with the former, but this is still probably coincidental and statistically meaningless. In all those games there were other factors and the sample size is still very much in the “nothing to see here” zone. In coin-flipping terms, very roughly - we’ve flipped a coin ten times and heads (Kova-Jorginho) has come up 7 times out of 10. 

Ye I think when you watch the matches, you can see the impact both players bring. For me Kante adds so much more to our game by the amount of energy and ball recoveries he makes in critical parts of the pitch and crucial times. He also drives forward with the ball a lot of times, which greatly helps us. I admit he isn't the best passer or that great when going forward, but for me whilst Jorginho has been playing somewhat well, he doesn't really bring much to our play. That's why for me, and especially in the big matches, Kante has to start. 

Now that I think about it, Kante in midfield also adds fear, you wont have people trying to take him on, whereas with Jorgi, you know you can knock it past him quite easily if you have that pace. 

Edited March 2, 20215 yr by Oli

8 minutes ago, Dean said:

Again - I like both Kante and Jorginho in different ways, and the attributes of each have been well articulated by other posters. 
 

For some reason (I desperately need a break from work and homeschooling maybe?) I’ve decided to bang the drum AGAIN on the midfield pairing - and since there’s lots of talk of statistics - the bogus use of statistics regarding the relative success of Kova-Jorginho vs Kova-Kante. We may indeed have seen more success with the former, but this is still probably coincidental and statistically meaningless. In all those games there were other factors and the sample size is still very much in the “nothing to see here” zone. In coin-flipping terms, very roughly - we’ve flipped a coin ten times and heads (Kova-Jorginho) has come up 7 times out of 10. 

I think the who partners Kovacic is similar to the who partners Kante conundrum of 16/17 where we had two different characteristics vying for the role in Matic and Cesc.

Like back then it really is/should be horses for courses. Against United the right decision was made for Kante as United's pace on the counter was a big problem and the decision was vindicated with Kante stopping an almost certain goal, against teams that park the Boeing747 Infront of their goal then it should be Jorginho, I can't recall many games against sh*t house teams we've dropped points in with partnership, they have natural chemistry aswell which really helps us to control the tempo and manage games.

In the games coming up Kante should be starting against Liverpool and Leeds, Jorginho against Everton and Sheffield United. The second leg vs Leti I would have said Jorginho again but his suspension means Kante is in.

No matter which pairing you put together there is a massive elephant in the room. All three produce next to nothing in offence.

Kovacic:  Big chances created 7    Goals 1   https://www.premierleague.com/players/12520/Mateo-Kovacic/stats?co=1&se=-1

Jorginho Big chance created 13 Goals 11 (mostly pens) https://www.premierleague.com/players/5682/Jorginho/stats?co=1&se=-1

Kante    Big chances created 17  Goals 10 https://www.premierleague.com/players/5682/Jorginho/stats?co=1&se=-1

This is in their Chelsea careers total. It simply isn't good enough and we can only really carry one non producer per game. Add this to Mount ( who's figures are only bettered by Robben at his age ) still learning the game and we clearly have a creation/goals from midfield problem with the current players available.

6 hours ago, ForeverCarefree said:

I never said anything about tackles and interceptions. If you look at the quoted text from @PloKoon13 I was responding to "'how does one quantify an individual press'. What is pressing in a statistical context?". 

Pressing is a collective action and so how you atribute an individual statistic to it? 

It's funny how you all have so much to say but lack the decency to click on the link that shows why the tweet said that Jorginho had a good defensive and good passing game against Atletico. But I guess, the kids with the same old agenda of 3 years will automatically get mindblown as soon as Kante wins 1 ball...

Yes yes pressing is a collective stat but it's only a problem when Jorginho presses correctly, when Kante does it it's just Kante being Kante right?

53 minutes ago, charierre said:

No matter which pairing you put together there is a massive elephant in the room. All three produce next to nothing in offence.

Kovacic:  Big chances created 7    Goals 1   https://www.premierleague.com/players/12520/Mateo-Kovacic/stats?co=1&se=-1

Jorginho Big chance created 13 Goals 11 (mostly pens) https://www.premierleague.com/players/5682/Jorginho/stats?co=1&se=-1

Kante    Big chances created 17  Goals 10 https://www.premierleague.com/players/5682/Jorginho/stats?co=1&se=-1

This is in their Chelsea careers total. It simply isn't good enough and we can only really carry one non producer per game. Add this to Mount ( who's figures are only bettered by Robben at his age ) still learning the game and we clearly have a creation/goals from midfield problem with the current players available.

I like your out of the box thinking, it's radical, imagine a midfielder who could score goals on a regular basis, someone who would be a threat from outside the box, not just shooting, but also possessing a forward vision that is in-tune with our forward players, you really could be onto something.