Jorginho is.... (well now was) a Blue

[just]

7 hours ago, Slojo said:

A lot of people who talk about his physical abilities are the same people who think players like Viera and Keane would be playing at top level today, they wouldn't, not even our own Dennis Wise. The game has moved on now, players fall over and half the time they get rewarded for it. I don't like it but that's the way it is. Pep doesn't play with box to box strong physical players in the middle, does he? And he's one of the most successful coaches in the world, certainly the most successful in the past 10 years, at Barca he had Xavi and Busquets sitting deep, at Bayern it was Xabi and Martinez, now at City he's brought in Rodrigo who certainly isn't a physical player by any means. This is the reason why managers like Jose Mourinho are rapidly falling behind, Mourinho still rates players like Eric Dier when they could've been good players about 15 years ago. 

Jorginho is a fantastic player, a lot of his technical attributes make up for his lack of pace, I don't think we should be offloading him any time soon at all. 

 

Yes I think Viera and Keane and Essien would be playing at the top level today. Dennis Wise? Love him to bits but not in the same league as those three in terms of physically dominating a midfield.

 

[goose]

Have to go with @just on this, particularly with Keane. The man was world class. Probably in the premiership top 5 best players. Keane was not just a physical player but had a great engine, good header of the ball, strong in the tackle, great passer and could score goals. Also he was a great leader on the pitch. Must add that I hated the f**king sight of him but have to appreciate his worth. 
Viera and Essien I don’t rate as highly but both were quality players.

Wise although a Chelsea favourite was never in the same league imo.

[just]

6 minutes ago, goose said:

Have to go with @just on this, particularly with Keane. The man was world class. Probably in the premiership top 5 best players. Keane was not just a physical player but had a great engine, good header of the ball, strong in the tackle, great passer and could score goals. Also he was a great leader on the pitch. Must add that I hated the f**king sight of him but have to appreciate his worth. 
Viera and Essien I don’t rate as highly but both were quality players.

Wise although a Chelsea favourite was never in the same league imo.

Judged on pure footballing technique goose I personally think Keane was the lesser of the 3. But his sheer physical presence, work rate and win at all cost mentality made him a monster to play against. Plus he obviously has a screw loose which made him even more intimidating.

Viera today would be worth a £100 million +

 

[Dean]

5 minutes ago, just said:

Judged on pure footballing technique goose I personally think Keane was the lesser of the 3. But his sheer physical presence, work rate and win at all cost mentality made him a monster to play against. Plus he obviously has a screw loose which made him even more intimidating.

Viera today would be worth a £100 million +

 

It’s tough to compare different eras, I think, Just. the game and sport in general are constantly evolving at a decent clip. You can pick pretty much any high intensity sport and the best players that ever played are all playing now. Now, as a semi old-timer, I have trouble admitting this to myself. I want to think that the players I grew up watching would run rings around those of today. But it’s the opposite of the truth. If you put any of the players mentioned in a time machine and they had to play a game today, I think they’d all struggle.  They wouldn’t even have the physical presence as today’s players are by and large significantly fitter and stronger. Messi is a beast. If you sent him back through time, even just 2 decades, nobody would be able to handle him technically or physically. In this respect, with the benefit of hindsight the Brazilian Ronaldo was a vision of the future. He was insane.
 

but I digress - you’d have to put Keane and co through some kind of adaptation programme as well as a time machine. Then sure, maybe they had enough raw talent/technique to make them adaptable. I agree with you that Keane would be the lesser of the three and Vieira the best. There was a lot more to his game than just being a midfield bruiser. And if he got ‘processed’ in the way suggested, who knows - - he could be a £100mn player today, for sure.

[Sexyfootball]

8 hours ago, Dean said:

It’s tough to compare different eras, I think, Just. the game and sport in general are constantly evolving at a decent clip. You can pick pretty much any high intensity sport and the best players that ever played are all playing now. Now, as a semi old-timer, I have trouble admitting this to myself. I want to think that the players I grew up watching would run rings around those of today. But it’s the opposite of the truth. If you put any of the players mentioned in a time machine and they had to play a game today, I think they’d all struggle.  They wouldn’t even have the physical presence as today’s players are by and large significantly fitter and stronger. Messi is a beast. If you sent him back through time, even just 2 decades, nobody would be able to handle him technically or physically. In this respect, with the benefit of hindsight the Brazilian Ronaldo was a vision of the future. He was insane.
 

but I digress - you’d have to put Keane and co through some kind of adaptation programme as well as a time machine. Then sure, maybe they had enough raw talent/technique to make them adaptable. I agree with you that Keane would be the lesser of the three and Vieira the best. There was a lot more to his game than just being a midfield bruiser. And if he got ‘processed’ in the way suggested, who knows - - he could be a £100mn player today, for sure.

I get the evolution idea, but the best players of any era, are usually the best for reasons beyond simple talent, skill and technique ... it's their mentality and winning attitude ... and they would adapt to training methods, evolution etc, and still be right up there. Take Messi back in time, and I dare say he also would have adapted to the mud bath pitches of yesteryear, clumpy old boots, and a soggy heavy leather football .. not to mention being on a few quid a week and having to sweep the terraces to top up his wages 🙂

Edited February 23, 2020 by Sexyfootball

[Dean]

21 minutes ago, Sexyfootball said:

I get the evolution idea, but the best players of any era, are usually the best for reasons beyond simple talent, skill and technique ... it's their mentality and winning attitude ... and they would adapt to training methods, evolution etc, and still be right up there. Take Messi back in time, and I dare say he also would have adapted to the mud bath pitches of yesteryear, clumpy old boots, and a soggy heavy leather football .. not to mention being on a few quid a week and having to sweep the terraces to top up his wages 🙂

That’s fair and I did talk about adaptability. It’s certainly true what you say about mentality / winning attitude. I think the sport that best illustrates this is tennis. There’s very very little to separate the players at the top, and the grand slam haul of Federer, Nadal and Djokovic to a large extent comes down to mental strength in crucial moments (particularly for the latter two as Federer is/was the GOAT talent-wise and less mentally strong than the other two). 

[Slojo]

10 hours ago, just said:

Yes I think Viera and Keane and Essien would be playing at the top level today. Dennis Wise? Love him to bits but not in the same league as those three in terms of physically dominating a midfield.

 

Keane and Viera would massively struggle in this era, and Kante is better than Essien, so why would we need Essien? 

Football has evolved massively, you don't need a Roy Keane in midfield anymore. The fact is we've played our best football this season with Jorginho and Kovacic in the middle, nobody can dispute that. 

[Sexyfootball]

7 minutes ago, Slojo said:

Keane and Viera would massively struggle in this era

Football has evolved massively

They'd do fine ... can't agree with this ... by common consent the overall standard of football in the PL is the worst it's ever been !

[Slojo]

7 minutes ago, Sexyfootball said:

They'd do fine ... can't agree with this ... by common consent the overall standard of football in the PL is the worst it's ever been !

It's the worst it's ever been at competitively, Liverpool are miles ahead of everyone else and I don't think Liverpool are as great as the media are touting. But you can't deny how much football has changed just in the past 10 years alone, never mind 20. You can't make the tackles you made 20 years ago like you can now, even going in for a challenge today can have you sent off. 

Jorginho would've really struggled in the Premier League 20 years ago, just like Roy Keane would struggle today. I know this sounds ignorant, but I do think a lot of people’s views on Jorginho are outdated. That's not to say you can't criticise him, I'm not going to go Gol15 here, but I do think if he was 6'2 and built like a brick sh*thouse, people would view him a lot differently. I mean a physical presence? What does that even mean? Busquets has been one of the best DM's in the world for years, but is he not good enough because he's no Michael Essien? 

Edited February 23, 2020 by Slojo

[Dean]

I think there’s another possible angle here which is that Keane, Vieira and co were ahead of their time in terms of physique, and now, due to the greater demands of the game, all the strength training they do, the rest of the field has caught up. Compare the physique of the average elite player today vs back then. They’re absolutely ripped now. And even some of the smaller players are way stronger than we realise. I’ll get laughed off the forum for saying it but I don’t think Keane would have the physical beating of a Messi or Modric. Agree or disagree, this implies that physical strength still counts for something (a lot in fact) and I think it’s a legit criticism of Jorginho. But as I’ve said, it matters less when the team is clicking and he brings some unique qualities to the table: supreme tactical awareness, great attitude etc... I mean - they can’t have everything right?

[PloKoon13]

Worth noting that Liverpool, who are currently by far the best team in the league (and probably in the world) right now, play any two of Fabinho, Henderson and Milner every game. Then again I suppose they have the tactical oddity of essentially having David Beckham at right back.

Also worth noting that Guardiola's best Man City side had Fernandinho at the base of midfield, who is nothing if not physical, and if nothing else could scythe down anyone trying to counter.

[strider6004]

1 hour ago, PloKoon13 said:

Worth noting that Liverpool, who are currently by far the best team in the league (and probably in the world) right now, play any two of Fabinho, Henderson and Milner every game. Then again I suppose they have the tactical oddity of essentially having David Beckham at right back.

Also worth noting that Guardiola's best Man City side had Fernandinho at the base of midfield, who is nothing if not physical, and if nothing else could scythe down anyone trying to counter.

I never used to bet against City when they had Fernandinho and Kompany playing as they were just too strong. The flair is taken for granted yet you need defensive muscle too.

[Gol15]

1 hour ago, PloKoon13 said:

Worth noting that Liverpool, who are currently by far the best team in the league (and probably in the world) right now, play any two of Fabinho, Henderson and Milner every game. Then again I suppose they have the tactical oddity of essentially having David Beckham at right back.

Also worth noting that Guardiola's best Man City side had Fernandinho at the base of midfield, who is nothing if not physical, and if nothing else could scythe down anyone trying to counter.

Liverpool has this amazing tactic where they leave everything for their attacking trio, the rest are either doing defencive tasks or shooting from distance.

Guardiola wanted to buy Jorginho, the main reason he's here is because of Sarri so basically Guardiola wanted Jorginho to replace Fernandinho.

Brazil for example has the best DM group with Fernandinho, Fabinho, Casemiro and still couldn't do much at the world cup.

[Slojo]

1 hour ago, PloKoon13 said:

Worth noting that Liverpool, who are currently by far the best team in the league (and probably in the world) right now, play any two of Fabinho, Henderson and Milner every game. Then again I suppose they have the tactical oddity of essentially having David Beckham at right back.

Also worth noting that Guardiola's best Man City side had Fernandinho at the base of midfield, who is nothing if not physical, and if nothing else could scythe down anyone trying to counter.

Fernandinho is a lot more than just physical, that's an inaccurate description of him. 

[Slojo]

28 minutes ago, Strider6003 said:

I never used to bet against City when they had Fernandinho and Kompany playing as they were just too strong. The flair is taken for granted yet you need defensive muscle too.

They've actually been missing Laporte badly, not Kompany, Kompany barely played under Pep. 

[strider6004]

2 minutes ago, Slojo said:

They've actually been missing Laporte badly, not Kompany, Kompany barely played under Pep. 

I meant City in particular when they had those two available they were unbeatable for me.

[Slojo]

5 minutes ago, Strider6003 said:

I meant City in particular when they had those two available they were unbeatable for me.

Fernandinho yes, but Fernandinho is not just a physical player, not sure where people are getting this myth from, he's a quality footballer and has been an underrated midfielder for years. I would say City were at their best during their recent two title wins, particularly Pep's 2nd season they were almost unstoppable and breaking every record. They would dominate teams with possession, and outplay them, they weren't just physical bullies on the pitch. Kompany was in his prime during Mancini and Pellegrini and City weren't anywhere near as dominant as they were under Pep, they won the title by mere inches under their last two managers, under Pep they walked it and even though they had a tight win last season they still battered the league and won by nearly a 100 points. 

Edited February 23, 2020 by Slojo

[strider6004]

1 minute ago, Slojo said:

Fernandinho yes, but Fernandinho is not just a physical player, not sure where people are getting this myth from, he's a quality footballer and has been an underrated midfielder for years. I would say City were at their recent two title wins, particularly Pep's 2nd season they were almost unstoppable and breaking every record. They would dominate teams with possession, and outplay them, they weren't just physical bullies on the pitch. 

Agree he is more than just muscle he can play but having that combination of skill and strength makes him stand out.

[Slojo]

Just now, Strider6003 said:

Agree he is more than just muscle he can play but having that combination of skill and strength makes him stand out.

Yes but if he was just physical he wouldn't be in Pep's team. 

[big blue]

2 hours ago, Slojo said:

Keane and Viera would massively struggle in this era, and Kante is better than Essien, so why would we need Essien? 

Football has evolved massively, you don't need a Roy Keane in midfield anymore. The fact is we've played our best football this season with Jorginho and Kovacic in the middle, nobody can dispute that. 

its obviously impossible to prove either way, but Keane's mentality would push him to the top of the game in any era. Born winner and leader. 

Vieira had everything aswell, im not sure why you would think he would struggle, He would walk into the liverpool or city team. Technically outstanding, better than than both fabinho and Rodri. 

[Gol15]

You may find flaws in any player if you try, even in Hazard or Drogba but that's not the point isn't it?

Jorginho has been constantly good for 2 seasons now, meaning ever since he came here, we got him for his best years as well. 

[PloKoon13]

1 hour ago, Slojo said:

Yes but if he was just physical he wouldn't be in Pep's team. 

 

1 hour ago, Slojo said:

Fernandinho is a lot more than just physical, that's an inaccurate description of him. 

That's not actually what I said though, is it? No player in a world class side is going to be exclusively a physical player. In fact you would struggle to find any Premier League standard footballer you could describe in that way.

One of my above points is that even Guardiola, the modern day king of footballing aesthetes, has a player at the base of midfield for whom physicality and defensive acuity are key strengths of their game.

[loz]

You may find flaws in any player if you try, even in Hazard or Drogba but that's not the point isn't it?
Jorginho has been constantly good for 2 seasons now, meaning ever since he came here, we got him for his best years as well. 

He really hasn't. Hit and miss last season and, whilst certainly improved this season, he hasn't been constantly good.

Games like Spurs where he looks quality are ideal for him. No pressure put on him as Spurs showed no intent to get forward and at him.

Games like United where he actually has to worry about having an opponent near him and he doesn't get the time and space his game seems to need, he looks like a rabbit in the headlights and offers little.

[Gol15]

50 minutes ago, loz said:

He really hasn't. Hit and miss last season and, whilst certainly improved this season, he hasn't been constantly good.

Games like Spurs where he looks quality are ideal for him. No pressure put on him as Spurs showed no intent to get forward and at him.

Games like United where he actually has to worry about having an opponent near him and he doesn't get the time and space his game seems to need, he looks like a rabbit in the headlights and offers little.

He was the best passer in the league last season, this season he is still keeping up with 2 key passes per game but with less possession of the team overall. So that's 2 season of a high quality deep lying playmaker, not a coincidence that we finished top 3 and are still in top 4 this season.

[Slojo]

1 hour ago, PloKoon13 said:

 

That's not actually what I said though, is it? No player in a world class side is going to be exclusively a physical player. In fact you would struggle to find any Premier League standard footballer you could describe in that way.

One of my above points is that even Guardiola, the modern day king of footballing aesthetes, has a player at the base of midfield for whom physicality and defensive acuity are key strengths of their game.

Okay so were Martinez and Busquets physical players? He won over twenty trophies with those two as his defensive unit. And your post is clearly trying to point out that Fernandinho's primary attributes are physical, when that's not even the case, he's a fantastic footballer and can actually play it out from the back. 

Edited February 23, 2020 by Slojo