Jorginho is.... (well now was) a Blue

[Gol15]

1 minute ago, Ernie_blue said:

Here we go folks, the top passing stats are out again 😂 What are we even meant to take from it, Jorginho played most games for a top 4 side in the registra role? I would expect him to be near the top for most passes played. 

And where are the other midfielders then? Where is your argument? Stop trying to diminish anything that you have no answer for, just because you dislike him it doesn't prove jack!

[Ernie_blue]

1 minute ago, Dean said:

If you were prepared to look beneath surface you could see the potential. Have some appreciation for the difficulty of moving to a new country and new league, with no meaningful recent match experience. Why do you think that’s easy? You have to factor these things into your assessments. The same applies to Jorginho and Sarri. Klopp had many doubters in his first season in charge.

Was Kovacic poor last season? He was involved alot last year and he was. Yes it was new league but the answer is he was poor. This year he has been quality.

[Ernie_blue]

3 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

And where are the other midfielders then? Where is your argument? Stop trying to diminish anything that you have no answer for, just because you dislike him it doesn't prove jack!

Is those stats most passes played in a season? If so then you only include the top 6. Also how many minutes each midfielder played for those clubs will have a major contribution. How many minutes did each defensive midfielder play for there club last season? 

[Dean]

1 minute ago, Ernie_blue said:

Was Kovacic poor last season? He was involved alot last year and he was. Yes it was new league but the answer is he was poor. This year he has been quality.

He was excellent in some games. To name a few: Tottenham at home, the Europa final, Liverpool at home, Watford away (I think). I understand where you’re coming from but some of his qualities (excellent technique, close control for example) were there to see. I saw this as more important than the overall failure to impress because of those circumstances I mentioned. I think we really do have to take these circumstances into account. Not doing so is perhaps why we got rid of Salah and de Bruyne prematurely.

[Ernie_blue]

1 minute ago, Dean said:

He was excellent in some games. To name a few: Tottenham at home, the Europa final, Liverpool at home, Watford away (I think). I understand where you’re coming from but some of his qualities (excellent technique, close control for example) were there to see. I saw this as more important than the overall failure to impress because of those circumstances I mentioned. I think we really do have to take these circumstances into account. Not doing so is perhaps why we got rid of Salah and de Bruyne prematurely.

I was looking at it more as back and white, if someone said to me was he good or poor, I would answer poor. Someone said to me the other day Hazard has done nothing in Spain but I replied he has been injured most of the year, same with Pulisic. At least Kovacic had a good amount of games. Not that I'm that bothered he was poor, maybe under other circumstances we might not have signed Kovacic in the summer. Just glad he has massively improved and been our best midfielder this year.

[Gol15]

6 minutes ago, Ernie_blue said:

Is those stats most passes played in a season? If so then you only include the top 6. Also how many minutes each midfielder played for those clubs will have a major contribution. How many minutes did each defensive midfielder play for there club last season? 

Why don't you simply check it yourself, Jorginho is at the top with all players included, if he could transform a team like that in his first season why isn't there anyone else at the top? You think it's all luck and minutes that it's mostly Jorginho and CBs up there?

[Ernie_blue]

4 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

Why don't you simply check it yourself, Jorginho is at the top with all players included, if he could transform a team like that in his first season why isn't there anyone else at the top? You think it's all luck and minutes that it's mostly Jorginho and CBs up there?

You don't understand the stats, defenders and defensive midfielders are mostly up there because they touch the more than any other players on the pitch. The players from the top 1-6 sides have the ball more than any other club. The players who play the most minutes for the clubs will also occupy the top spots like City and Chelsea last year who played alot of possession football. I'm not putting Jorginho down but I would expect the defensive midfielders from City and Chelsea to be near the top and throwing a passing stat to back up a player doesn't make me go wow.

[DidierDrogbalala]

32 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

And where are the other midfielders then? Where is your argument? Stop trying to diminish anything that you have no answer for, just because you dislike him it doesn't prove jack!

Kevin De Bruyne is the best passer of the ball in the league if not the world and i dont see him in your graphics, the stats that you posted mean how the teams wants to play, of course Van Djik and Trent AA are gonna be at the top, Liverpool play really wide and wants to play out the back. Same thing with Laporte and Rodri for City, thats how they play. Jorginho is our best passer and we dont have a centerback thats great with the ball at his feet.

And you can do all you wants with stats, we all knew Hazard was the best player in the PL but he never had the best stats except the dribbling one because he always had the ball and we relied on him too much.

I dont know if you follow basketball but this is like the using % rate with James Harden. Of course he got the best stats, he has the ball ALL THE TIME.

Jorginho is a good player, skillfull, intelligent, compose but he has a lack of physicality when it comes to pace and strength that we ve seen on numerous times cost us a couple of goals, free kicks in great positions or stupid yellow cards early in the game.

He can't have it all obviously or he would have cost a lot more and he would be play for Barca or Real.

Edited February 23, 2020 by DidierDrogbalala

[Gol15]

4 minutes ago, Ernie_blue said:

You don't understand the stats, defenders and defensive midfielders are mostly up there because they touch the more than any other players on the pitch. The players from the top 1-6 sides have the ball more than any other club. The players who play the most minutes for the clubs will also occupy the top spots like City and Chelsea last year who played alot of possession football. I'm not putting Jorginho down but I would expect the defensive midfielders from City and Chelsea to be near the top and throwing a passing stat to back up a player doesn't make me go wow.

Fact is Jorginho made this team work last season. No CB passed more, not even when it was super obvious that Jorginho must be marked. I understand fully what the stat means, which is why I can also see it as a good indication of how important a player is and how hard it must be to put up those numbers for two years in a row.

[Gol15]

7 minutes ago, DidierDrogbalala said:

Kevin De Bruyne is the best passer of the ball in the league if not the world and i dont see him in your graphics, the stats that you posted mean how the teams wants to play, of course Van Djik and Trent AA are gonna be at the top, Liverpool play really wide and wants to play out the back. Same thing with Laporte and Rodri for City, thats how they play. Jorginho is our best passer and we dont have a centerback thats great with the ball at his feet.

And you can do all you wants with stats, we all knew Hazard was the best player in the PL but he never had the best stats except the dribbling one because he always had the ball and we relied on him too much.

I dont know if you follow basketball but this is like the using % rate with James Harden. Of course he got the best stats, he has the ball ALL THE TIME.

Jorginho is a good player, skillfull, intelligent, compose but he has a lack of physicality when it comes to pace and strength that we ve seen on numerous times cost us a couple of goals, free kicks in great positions or stupid yellow cards early in the game.

He can't have it all obviously or he would have cost a lot more and he would be play for Barca or Real.

De Bruyne is the best midfielder in the whole league, his stats also prove it. But he's not a deep lying midfielder he plays higher up and is making the end product, obviously Man City is scoring a lot more goals, shooting a lot more they have a more developed system but you do see Rodri in this seasons passing stat, he's higher than Jorginho, he plays his role, and Pep wanted a player like that, he got him in Rodri.

So the argument that a team in this league can't win with a player like that is invalid, Pep wanted a player like that.

My argument is that Jorginho has been a good player overall from the moment he came here, nothing more.

[Amputechture]

[strider6004]

24 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

De Bruyne is the best midfielder in the whole league, his stats also prove it. But he's not a deep lying midfielder he plays higher up and is making the end product, obviously Man City is scoring a lot more goals, shooting a lot more they have a more developed system but you do see Rodri in this seasons passing stat, he's higher than Jorginho, he plays his role, and Pep wanted a player like that, he got him in Rodri.

He might be the best though I would re-phrase as the best attacking midfielder in the whole league.

[Slojo]

1 hour ago, Ernie_blue said:

Here we go folks, the top passing stats are out again 😂 What are we even meant to take from it, Jorginho played most games for a top 4 side in the registra role? I would expect him to be near the top for most passes played. 

I'm not a fan of Gol15 at all, but you're also being ridiculously hyperbolic. 

[Ernie_blue]

20 minutes ago, Slojo said:

I'm not a fan of Gol15 at all, but you're also being ridiculously hyperbolic. 

I showed many flaws in how many passes a player makes stat. Tbh I do get tired of reading the same passing stat and pep wanted Jorginho argument every week.

 

Edited February 23, 2020 by Ernie_blue

[Slojo]

46 minutes ago, Ernie_blue said:

I showed many flaws in how many passes a player makes stat. Tbh I do get tired of reading the same passing stat and pep wanted Jorginho argument every week.

 

No I agree, stats are not the be all end all, although they do tell a story, and Jorginho does have good stats, some of the best in the league for his position actually, but there have been plenty of times where he's been left for dead, but not too much this season. He had a poor game against United though, that I agree with. Gol15 keeps repeating the same arguments and isn't challenging any of your points, believe me I've argued with him about this time and time again so I know all to well what it's like arguing with him. 

But I also don't agree that him or Kovacic were awful last season, that's being hyperbolic, they weren't great, but I thought they both showed promise. Kovacic was just average for a large part of it, let’s keep in mind that it was both their first seasons, players need time to adapt. Jorginho has significantly improved for me, if I'm wrong and Jorginho doesn't maintain the form he had earlier in the season I'll eat my hat and I'll be the first to admit it. But I'm fully confident he and Kovacic are the real deal, Kante I'm not so sure anymore because of injuries and him turning 29, I think we could be seeing the decline to his game. 

[Munkunku]

7 hours ago, Gol15 said:

 

All this says to me is Jorginho, Luiz and Rudiger just aimlessly passed the ball around between themselves. It’s also what I seem to remember witnessing with my own eyes on many occasions last season. 

[Davey Baby]

7 hours ago, Strider6003 said:

He might be the best though I would re-phrase as the best attacking midfielder in the whole league.

 

I would rephrase as the best player in the whole league. Period.

[Argo]

7 hours ago, Slojo said:

No I agree, stats are not the be all end all, although they do tell a story, and Jorginho does have good stats, some of the best in the league for his position actually, but there have been plenty of times where he's been left for dead, but not too much this season. He had a poor game against United though, that I agree with. Gol15 keeps repeating the same arguments and isn't challenging any of your points, believe me I've argued with him about this time and time again so I know all to well what it's like arguing with him. 

But I also don't agree that him or Kovacic were awful last season, that's being hyperbolic, they weren't great, but I thought they both showed promise. Kovacic was just average for a large part of it, let’s keep in mind that it was both their first seasons, players need time to adapt. Jorginho has significantly improved for me, if I'm wrong and Jorginho doesn't maintain the form he had earlier in the season I'll eat my hat and I'll be the first to admit it. But I'm fully confident he and Kovacic are the real deal, Kante I'm not so sure anymore because of injuries and him turning 29, I think we could be seeing the decline to his game. 

I can't work out if Kante is slowing down and his 100mph way of playing is catching up with him or he just doesn't suit this system.

[just]

8 hours ago, DidierDrogbalala said:

Kevin De Bruyne is the best passer of the ball in the league if not the world and i dont see him in your graphics, the stats that you posted mean how the teams wants to play, of course Van Djik and Trent AA are gonna be at the top, Liverpool play really wide and wants to play out the back. Same thing with Laporte and Rodri for City, thats how they play. Jorginho is our best passer and we dont have a centerback thats great with the ball at his feet.

And you can do all you wants with stats, we all knew Hazard was the best player in the PL but he never had the best stats except the dribbling one because he always had the ball and we relied on him too much.

I dont know if you follow basketball but this is like the using % rate with James Harden. Of course he got the best stats, he has the ball ALL THE TIME.

Jorginho is a good player, skillfull, intelligent, compose but he has a lack of physicality when it comes to pace and strength that we ve seen on numerous times cost us a couple of goals, free kicks in great positions or stupid yellow cards early in the game.

He can't have it all obviously or he would have cost a lot more and he would be play for Barca or Real.

What a fabulous post. Nailed it there DD.

[Scott]

Injury and he doesn't fit Franks system. I think he's off come summer. 

[PloKoon13]

9 hours ago, dkw said:

Definition of hyperbole;

This thread. 

It seems like an affectionate (if ostensibly endless) parody of the tedious Jorginho debates from last season.

I have to admit that 'played the most passes = best passer' is a good one. Excellent piss taking.

[yorkleyblue]

19 hours ago, DidierDrogbalala said:

Kevin De Bruyne is the best passer of the ball in the league

 

19 hours ago, Gol15 said:

De Bruyne is the best midfielder in the whole league,

He's not even the best passer in the Man City squad.  D. Silva is that and, arguably the other Silva is a better all round midfielder.

 

[Slojo]

18 hours ago, Argo said:

I can't work out if Kante is slowing down and his 100mph way of playing is catching up with him or he just doesn't suit this system.

Same here, it could be a cominbation of all the three maybe? Lets face it though once his pace starts declining his whole game will aswell, it heavily relies around his pace. 

[robdog]

lovely moment from Jorginho from match vs spuds

 

[Munkunku]

1 hour ago, robdog said:

lovely moment from Jorginho from match vs spuds

 

Ok he’s got himself a few brownie points there.