11 minutes ago, DannyVblue said:

The midfield was the least of our worries last night, I actually think we had the beating of them in the middle of the park. The problem is that we don't have forwards who can score and we are conceding with every chance that we give away. how many decent chances did they actually have last night? I cant think of any except for the 2 goals - Willy was barely tested. This has been a common theme all season.

We were also completely mugged off by all the officials last night which obvious didn't help.

I agree, we actually have to blame our attack and/or our defense because the midfield did a decent job overall. Martial had a good breakthrough where James was sleeping a bit and he outpaced Jorginho and his shot was wide, that's the one time our whole team fell apart where the midfield was involved, so there's that...

8 minutes ago, Spiller86 said:

That is rather simplistic. No one is saying you need only brawn without finesse. Bakayoko was strong but had zero first touch and he was no better fit.

Most are simply pointing out that in big games physicality and the ability to cover ground quickly and win the ball in duels are important. Jorginho for his strengths just doesn't possess those skills regardless of what his out of context stats say. 

I don't think he was our worst yesterday by any stretch but its clear to me that like Kepa he suited Sarri but isn't part of the solution in the post Sarri era. 

Bakayoko can cover ground and win the ball he actually had his best games when we didn't have any possession e.g. vs Liverpool he was really a big presence in the midfield. 

If I remember correctly Bakayoko was dreadful against Liverpool, he got absolutely bullied on MOTD and Sky for it, even Lamps had a few comments I believe, unless I'm getting the wrong game. 

He was good against Arsenal and Spurs though early in the season. 

21 minutes ago, DannyVblue said:

The midfield was the least of our worries last night, I actually think we had the beating of them in the middle of the park. The problem is that we don't have forwards who can score and we are conceding with every chance that we give away. how many decent chances did they actually have last night? I cant think of any except for the 2 goals - Willy was barely tested. This has been a common theme all season.

We were also completely mugged off by all the officials last night which obvious didn't help.

Agree with this. If we had a proper striker that put away one of those chances in the first half, it would have changed the entire complexion of the game. Instead he missed, then we conceded at the worst possible time psychologically via some misfortune (Christensen)... and it really just wasn’t our night from then on. We had a spell where Kova and Jorghinho were connecting really well in the middle of the park - it came to nothing as the result of course writes the story, but it gave me some hope. I feel like a broken record and bit of a ‘centrist dad’ pointing it out, but last night, and things generally, just aren’t that bad... and might even be quite good. I’m perpetually  amazed at the short-termism and unrealistic expectations many seem to have.

Our midfield yesterday worked our defence was as per usual all season over the place and we didn't score.

Jorginho dictated play well but what can he and Kova do if we don't put our chances away

Double post

If we get a good offer for him in the summer lets say from Juve i would sell him. I would then put Kante as a sitting DM, with Kovacic and Loftus Cheek or Mount in a midfield 3.

And who help us play out from the back Kante?

Just now, Brutos said:

And who help us play out from the back Kante?

We are using our fullbacks as playmakers right? They are there to dictate our game. Now City & Liverpool don’t play good football because they don’t use DLPs? Remember Fabinho/Henderson & Rodri are the deepest players in the centre for both teams.

4 minutes ago, Brutos said:

And who help us play out from the back Kante?

Well he's not that bad on the ball. And Kovacic can come deep to pick up the ball. As we have seen many time that Kante is pretty redundant when we have alot of possession and team plays deep against us.

For his standards I thought Jorginho did not have one of his strongest games yesterday. He normally reads the game well and his quick mind often makes up for his slow pace. Yesterday, he gave the ball away too cheaply on occasions and was not at his sharpest. Not sure what to make of this winter break.

Double post

Well he's not that bad on the ball. And Kovacic can come deep to pick up the ball. As we have seen many time that Kante is pretty redundant when we have alot of possession and team plays deep against us.

So if hes redundant in a possession team them why play him?

9 minutes ago, Brutos said:

So if hes redundant in a possession team them why play him?

as a sitting DM, he wont be that advanced so we wont rely on him to be creative as we do in the position he plays in now.

I dont think jorginho was even close to being the reason we lost yesterday, i think was exposed much more in that second half against leicester. 

There wasnt many occasions his lack of pace or power let united get an advantage over us.

Having said that, there is definitely a problem in midfield, and whilst jorginho's short comings are well documented, kante's fitness and form is as big a problem. 

We have a wealth of options available in midfield, but maybe we are missing that bit of steel to let the others atound the team flourish. 

We were linked with Soumare in January, and i like what i saw of him against us, strong commanding, and great on the ball.  Maybe he will replace someone in the summer. 

Its very hard to identify individual problems in the team at the moment, because there are just so many areas we are struggling. 

Disjointed pressing

Unreliable Goalkeeper 

Lack of of leadership especially at centre back

Weak midfield 

Lack of creativity

Poor finishing 

Naivety throughout the team, and in the coaching staff. 

 

 

I seem to remember last season we had a problem in midfield and the return of RLC put some steel into our performances. We need that right now and it probably isn't going to happen in time.

Jorge doesn't catch my eye. He seems to take the easiest option every time. I know it's easy to criticize but I don't think you can argue he's an all-round good player. He lacks physical presence and strength. He does give the ball away sometimes and his passing repertoire isn't extensive. What type of midfield player is he? He's not an attacking midfielder like Frank was. Or Gerard come to that. He scored two goals in PL last season and this season he has scored 6. 4 of which are penalties. He has 2 assists so far  He's not a Makele or Kante defensive type player but this is probably his strongest attribute. For me he keeps Kante out of his best position and doesn't offer enough to make up for this negative. He's definitely not a Hoddle or Pirlo type player who spreads it all over the park so I ask the question.

What does he offer that Kante doesn't?

 

Jorginho is being let down by other players such as Batshuayi last night and others that are not in the same wavelength. I dont know how to insert videos here, but there is an instance where Jorginho puts batshuayi through to score with a quick touch and go pass that takes out the defense, for only batshuayi slipping and not even having the IQ to expect it in the first place. Imagine if that was Drogba or Costa that would have being a goal and Jorginho would have being called a genius. He does that every game but its not noticed as others dont take those chances.

On a different note rumour has it we are in for Vecino of inter milan therefore one of Jorginho or Kante might leave in the summer.

Not really rating him as a player to be honest, he has some good games but overall he is not taking us to the top, he isn't a really defensive midfielder I'd like to see.

Our possession game isn't taking us anywhere until now, Kovacic can do it better because he can dribble forward and be more creative with the ball. 

Don't think we'll ever win a league title with him starting at the base of a midfield 3. 

He's just not mobile enough, it's like having Fabregas at the base , his football IQ and passing can save him most of the times but how many times  have we seen the opposition players run past him and he takes a yellow card to not leave our defender at risk. 

8 minutes ago, DidierDrogbalala said:

He's just not mobile enough, it's like having Fabregas at the base , his football IQ and passing can save him most of the times but how many times  have we seen the opposition players run past him and he takes a yellow card to not leave our defender at risk. 

You are talking about the Fabregas in his last 2yrs with us, peak Fabregas was one of the finest DLPs of his generation. If Jorginho’s skill set was peak Fabregas/Modric, sure we will get away with playing him deeper.

3 hours ago, Andy North said:

I seem to remember last season we had a problem in midfield and the return of RLC put some steel into our performances. We need that right now and it probably isn't going to happen in time.

Jorge doesn't catch my eye. He seems to take the easiest option every time. I know it's easy to criticize but I don't think you can argue he's an all-round good player. He lacks physical presence and strength. He does give the ball away sometimes and his passing repertoire isn't extensive. What type of midfield player is he? He's not an attacking midfielder like Frank was. Or Gerard come to that. He scored two goals in PL last season and this season he has scored 6. 4 of which are penalties. He has 2 assists so far  He's not a Makele or Kante defensive type player but this is probably his strongest attribute. For me he keeps Kante out of his best position and doesn't offer enough to make up for this negative. He's definitely not a Hoddle or Pirlo type player who spreads it all over the park so I ask the question.

What does he offer that Kante doesn't?

 

It's just the truth you wrote there. It may sound harsh but at what exactly does he excel at? Idk as you. 

It's just unfortunate because he has the passion and will but the qualities he brings is not enough or at least in the Premiere league. 

He is no Fabregas who was a god damn genius on the ball. 

IMO re Jorginho

- our best penalty taker

- sits in front of the defence and instructs other players to constrict space.

- good progressive passing to move us forward

- if bypassed by attacking players can rarely recover - his biggest weakness.

 

1 hour ago, Strider6003 said:

IMO re Jorginho

- our best penalty taker

- sits in front of the defence and instructs other players to constrict space.

- good progressive passing to move us forward

- if bypassed by attacking players can rarely recover - his biggest weakness.

 

That last bit is the crunch. If he is supposed to be the last line of cover before the defence, no wonder we are leaking so many goals. Good players go past him with ease. Last night, the United sub making his debut and had only just come on nearly scored (but for a good save by Willy) and that was down to Jorginho.

When Jorginho is good I like him and he does take an excellent penalty but he's one of these luxury players and when he's bad he's a liability. 

7 hours ago, Brutos said:

And who help us play out from the back Kante?

Works fine for France.

I think there has been an illusion created in the past decade based largely on Busquets that you need to have a DM who is good on the ball to drop deep play out from the back.

Truth is that you can build up through the fullbacks or through rotation in mdifield (this is what we did in Jose's second stint) sometimes being reliant on a single player in build up is limiting. As we saw plenty last season teams would block Jorginho and we'd be f**ked. 

Kante would be fine receiving the ball. He is much better than anyone gives him credit for. Frank's insistence on not using him at the base is one of his two key personnel mistakes this year. The other is not playing Giroud and Pedro.